Rayjsj Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thought I'd start another thread that didn't concern using an A-Frame in 'Greater Europe' as I only intend to use it in the UK. So, the laws in Spain or France are not of any relevance on this thread. My wife has a 'Disabled Coverted' Toyota Yaris, which we would like to take with us on our 'Tours', so she (and I) have more mobility when on site. We are finding it harder and harder to park our Motorhome (even with a 'Disabled' Badge) in Town centres or near (enough for my Wife) to attractions. I am unable to 'manhandle' a 'Car trailer' or load one, plus it would get in the way, when not in use. I am very interested JUST in the safety of these devices, NOT the law in greater Europe, which I accept does not allow them. Does anyone Else have any 'Safety related' concerns about A-Frames ? (before I buy one) The Reversing issue does not really concern me, as numerous legally towed vehicles are extremely difficult to reverse, if not impossible. (the smaller they are the harder they are to reverse). I am finding this dicussion very informative. Like; I will only get one that fits directly to the car chassis and not the 'towing eyes' ,only get one with the Electronic 'brake buddy' that operates via the towing vehicles brakes, and keeps the vacuum in the 'Toad' car active. Anything else i need to know ? ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi Ray We have the Towbars2Towcars version which has electronic braking on the toad and all the lights/indicators etc are part of the 'CPU package' they include with it. I cannot fault the set up or the company as the service was 1st class. They even rewired my towbar from a 7 pin to a 13 pin free of charge (You need 13 pin as you need constant power feed for this system and also so as not to flatten toad battery on long run) The after sales service from them is also very good. The only downside is the lining up of the A frame towbar to the tow ball-if you both drive, it is not a problem and you soon get used to the angle-if you are single driver then the 'hook up' could be a bit of a problem for you-especially as your wife is disabled. That said, the fitting of the towbar, electrics cable etc on the toad is easy as is the removal and it stows easily in the boot when separated. With regard to reversing, once again with practice this is relatively easy-you just have to set off slowly in reverse but if you are both drivers like us it is easier to just unhitch it in about 30 seconds. Safety wise-never had a problem with it-towed it all over and don't feel it hardly on the back, no snaking or pushing and no adverse cross wind effect. Does slow you're take off speed a bit but anything being towed would. Linkage on brake pedal works fine and no silly 'bungee ropes' as I have seen described on this site in other posts to return the pedal Hope this helps Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I may be mistaken but as I understood it the T2T A frame utilises the chassis manufacturers towing eye and adds another to the other side of the car. This is not good practice as these eyes are primarily intended for lashing down on transporters and emergency towing not long distance frequent use. There was a recent thread about this regarding the eye pulling away from the front cross member on a Smart car as I recall. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks for the input, I am the only M/H driver, as my missus needs the conversion on 'Her' car to be able to drive. I have a reversing camera and used to be caravanner so lining up shouldn't be a problem. As for Dave's point, I already understand about not using the 'towing eyes' for long term towing. And this is a Heavier car than a Smart as well. Any recommendations ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Can't fault Towtal. They really know what they are doing and are very well organised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-03 6:45 PM Thanks for the input, I am the only M/H driver, as my missus needs the conversion on 'Her' car to be able to drive. As for Dave's point, I already understand about not using the 'towing eyes' for long term towing. And this is a Heavier car than a Smart as well. Any recommendations ? Ray Sorry misunderstood op-if your wife can drive the toad, it is easy for you to link up the A frame. Re the towing eye, ours is a C1 and is strengthened (Plated)-I read about the smart car coming adrift but don't know if this was a T2T or another supplier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 No experience of a Toad. But Tow-bars 2 towcars fitted our Towbar.Graham is well qualified & their service was very good. http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.co.uk/index.php They had a lot of cars in the conversion stage at that time & appeared very busy in relation to the number of Toads we see out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 hi, must admit when i needed to go to north wales to work recently for a month took motorhome and bought a recovery a frame for £150. to take my van. this unit used rachet straps and a back board . it really worked well and did a job for me,although i do not recommend it to others. (please lets not get into an argument re. bracked trailers , a frames etc. i am aware of that. i am just pointing writer in the direction of a good braked a frame prod.) when i got back i was was so pleased with the result and wanted something perminant so i looked into it and settled on the car a tow system bit pricy at £1200 for the complete unit inc car fitment but works gr8. they did not cut my car a pug106 about as the cross bar came on a new front cross member and i was given the original to change back. as for getting it to the tow ball there is a bracket on the a frame which you can easily fit a jockey wheel an this enables you to manouvre the car independantly of the van.would not be without it now. once you have it the cost to change car is just the cost of changing the crossbar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 The car-a-tow frames look very substantial... http://www.caratow.com/home.php ..although it *looks* as though the toad retains quite a lot of "iron work" sticking out the front....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Must admit the 'Car-a Tow' looks very good, the video shows it quite well, the only thing i was not too happy about is the 'bungee cord' around the brake pedal ? The bar on the front is small, compared to some 'Bullbars' i have seen on some 4x4's. Must look deeper into the 'Brake buddy' bit. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hi, I am using a car-a-tow system on a Toyota Aygo for the past 3 years, you can fit a jockey wheel to the A frame, the fittings are there. I am on 2 crutches and have no problem using this set up. As regards mobility, I carry my mobility scooter in the Toyota, we have notice much greater mobility plus you have the convenience of you scooter/wheel chair. Please be aware the brake light on you Toyota a re live even with the ignition OFF, you will need a 1 way diode from Maplins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Mel, Don't think I understand the Bit about the brake lights ? i thought thay was 'taken care of' by the Plug connection to the Motorhome ? am i missing something . *-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-04 5:28 PM Mel, Don't think I understand the Bit about the brake lights ? i thought thay was 'taken care of' by the Plug connection to the Motorhome ? am i missing something . *-) Ray The power supply to Yaris rear brake light is always live, even with the ignition OFF. ( press the brake pedal with the ignition off, your brake lights will come on, this is common on Japenese cars) The brake cable from the A frame braking coulpling system which attached to the brake pedal will operate the rear lights using the Yaris own power supply. To avoid conflict/ feedback (a) from the motorhomes power cable also trying to feed the Yaris brake light i,e brake light power feed (red wire) and (b) the Yaris power supply you will need to fit a 1 way 3 amp diode from Maplins. This way you will avoid conflict. (a) Motorhome brake cable (red) fit 1 way diode between red and where it splices into Yaris brake light wiring loom, the diode is about 0.20 pence. (b) I am actually going to do the same on the Toyota side lights so I can use the car power supply. This way if I choose I can use eitheir the Toyoto or Motorhome power source without conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Mel, Thanks for the explanation, what about the electronic 'brake buddy' doesn't that mean that the brakes don't need a physical cable 'link' between 'overun mechanism' and car brakes ? don't they get an electronic signal (when the motorhomes brakes are operated) and that operates the car brakes, and keeps the cars Vacuum cylinder 'charged up'. otherwise after 3 or 4 operations of the brakes the Vacuum cylinder will be exhausted, and the car brakes will be VERY poor as they will have NO servo assistance. Sorry to be a nuisance. But I want to get this purchase 'Right first time'. ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Ray, I have never used a brake buddy, I never been 100% about them, I like to rely on something I can see and understand. Using the A frames conventional mechanical system the motorhome under light use supplys all the braking force, when you brake harder the coupling will come in to play and supply the required force to the Toyota's braking system etc. If the Toyota was to become uncoupled, the breakaway cable will come into action and apply the hand brake mechanism on the A frame and full force to the Toyotas brakes. The Car-a Tow system uses the coupling to operate the brake like any basic trailer/caravan, the coupling is connected to a very heavy duty steel cable, this is connected to the Toyota brake pedal, when the Motorhomes brakes are applied, the coupling is compressed, this energy/force it turn is transmitted through and applies the Toyota's brake,just like a handbrake. If you anymore concerns, you are more than welcome to look at my set up I am near Welshpool in Mid Wales As regard servo, a servo does not make your brakes more efficient, it just enable you to brake comfortably, applying less force .The force capable of being applied to the Toyota brakes through this system is much greater than the force you could apply with you right braking foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-04 4:40 PM Must admit the 'Car-a Tow' looks very good, the video shows it quite well, the only thing i was not too happy about is the 'bungee cord' around the brake pedal ? The bar on the front is small, compared to some 'Bullbars' i have seen on some 4x4's. Must look deeper into the 'Brake buddy' bit. Ray The bungee-cord around the brake-pedal is a belt-and-braces ploy to overcome any 'drag' in the bowden-cable connecting the pedal to the over-run braking mechanism on the A-frame. It assists the brake-pedal's own spring to return the pedal to its at-rest position after the cable has pulled it down during braking. As the bowden-cable is the Achilles-heel of this type of system, anything to minimise the chance of it holding the pedal down (eg. due to the cable being badly kinked, or a broken wire in the cable's construction) has got to be a sensible idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Melvin - 2012-02-05 9:50 AM.............................As regard servo, a servo does not make your brakes more efficient, it just enable you to brake comfortably, applying less force .The force capable of being applied to the Toyota brakes through this system is much greater than the force you could apply with you right braking foot. This may vary depending on car make but, if the engine is not running, in my experience it requires only around six dabs on the brake pedal to fully exhaust the servo vacuum reservoir. To test how well this works on your car, my suggestion is that you park your car on a reasonable hill, apply the handbrake, turn off the engine, (but do not, under any circumstances, remove the ignition key as the steering will lock) and then press the brake pedal several times until you can no longer hear the servo hiss. Then, let off the handbrake and allow the car to start rolling. Then, when it is at about 5mph, try stopping it on the foot-brake. Just make sure there are no obstructions for a long way in front of you when you do this. I think you may be surprised, and may even need to change your underwear! :-) You may also be surprised when you try to bring it to a standstill using the handbrake. That, roughly, represents the amount of braking generally available when your car is on the A-frame. It will not, in most cases, equate to the car's, aka trailer's, brakes working as required by trailer regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Brian, I am led to believe, from their advertising that the 'Brake Buddy' either has a 'Compessor; built in ? or somehow keeps the cars Vacuum cylinder 'Charged' so that full braking power is always available. Without having the engine running. It is evidently in widespread use in the USA. I want the best system, as it is my wife's car that i will be towing,and she will want it 'looking after'. ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-05 8:54 PM Brian, I am led to believe, from their advertising that the 'Brake Buddy' either has a 'Compessor; built in ? or somehow keeps the cars Vacuum cylinder 'Charged' so that full braking power is always available. Without having the engine running. It is evidently in widespread use in the USA. I want the best system, as it is my wife's car that i will be towing,and she will want it 'looking after'. ;-) Ray The BrakeBuddy unit contains an air-compressor that provides the force needed to push the towed-vehicle's brake pedal when the towing-vehicle brakes. Everything one might reasonably want to know about BrakeBuddy is on the manufacturer's website. That site also includes an interesting section on the towing laws of USA states and it's noticeable how the regulations can vary state-to-state and how different they can be to the UK's. http://www.brakebuddy.com/Towing-Laws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Derek, Are you saying that the 'Brake buddy' compressor only 'just' operates the pedal ? it doesn't actually 'top-up' the Cars Vacuum cylinder ? if so, it is not much differance from a 'Bowden cable' operated by the Tow hitch 'overrun' mechanism, Still using 'brute force' to operate the cars brakes ? There was me thinking it was a 'Sophisticated' braking system. For the price it OUGHT to be. Interesting seeing the differances between the states, on braking requirements (some are quite 'Scary' ). 8-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I think this set-up "energizes" the car's system... http://www.smart-tow.com/index.htm ..although it looks like they may use the original towing eye points, all be it modified..and the frame itself,does look quite "lightweight".... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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