French Gas Bottles

[Wilf]

As retirement draws near; late spring, the thought of an extended trip over the water will become reality this summer. We can carry two 13kg Calour bottles which without electric hook-up should last 6 to 8 weeks for water heating, cooking and the fridge/freezer. I tend to use Aires and France Passion it’s more like living in France than being on holiday in a regimented campsite.

But I want to stay longer!

I have looked at the option of one Calour bottle and one refillable bottle Gaslow but can I justify the cost of £276.95 for the bottle and parts to fit a one bottle system? I can get this down to £242.35 if I buy a second hand bottle.

My questions to the forum are:-

 

Is anyone using one Calour bottle and one French bottle either Antargaz, Butagaz, Primagaz or Totalgaz and if so which is the best make that is most available?

 

How much would it cost to buy a French bottle new and the cost of a refill?

 

Could I take 3 bottles on the shuttle or am I restricted to two bottles only?

 

Your advice and experiences good or bad would be appreciated.

Thanks Wilf

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I suggest you opt for a Butagaz 13kg propane (or butane) canister for your French bottle as this is probably the most widely available large-ish gas container marketed in France.

 

Current costs (based on the Butagaz website) seem to involve a €9 'initial hire charge' and an average €28.13 for a refill of gas. (I believe you can obtain a full refund of the hire-charge, should you so wish at some later date, as long as you've still got the original paperwork.)

 

http://www.butagaz.fr/solutions-butagaz/particuliers/tarifs-domestiques-prix-bouteille-gaz.aspx

 

http://www.butagaz.fr/economisez-avec-butagaz/le-comparateur-prix-gaz-bouteille-citerne.aspx

 

Eurotunnel advice regarding carrying gas bottles is here

 

http://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/site-information/lpg/

 

Apparently there's no maximum limit for the number of gas bottles that may be carried in a motorhome, just an overall restriction on the total amount of LPG that's in the bottles. Unlikely to be a problem for you I should think.

 

The cheapest autogas (GPL) in France at present is around €0.80 per litre, equating roughly to €20.80 for 13kg of LPG. So you'd need to buy a helluva lot of French autogas for the difference in price against Butagaz 13kg exchange-only bottles to offset the installation cost of a Gaslow system.

[rupert123]

You use a lot of gas, 2 x 6kg lasts us easily six weeks, although we stay mainly on sites, do not like spending our holidays mainly in carparks. I would suggest Gaslow or similar, it is not about price just ease of obtaining supplies. If you fit a French bottle you have to sort out the connectors for it, not worth all the bother to me.

[JamesFrance]

If you are happy to use butane, I would suggest Viseo shown in Derek's first link.

 

Widely available and light to carry as it has a plastic bottle. If you have a bulkhead regulator you would need to purchase their ClipDirect connector which also fits Le Cube, a refill costs about 18 to 22€ from many garages.

http://www.butagaz.fr/solutions-butagaz/particuliers/detendeurs-bouteilles-gaz-innovantes.aspx

 

The 13kg cylinders are very heavy.

 

When in Spain I replace one of my 2 Viseos with a Spanish Cepsa cylinder and change that one whenever it runs out, as Spanish gas is cheaper.

[Brian Kirby]

We have one UK Calor, one French Butagaz, both 13kg propane.

 

One cylinder lasts us around 12 weeks, but we tend to use sites.

 

Butagaz propane is very widely available from supermarkets almost all over France. See Derek's post for current prices. Look for the metallic light blue bottom-half, silver top-half, Butagaz cylinder. The cylinder is steel, and approximately the same shape, size (actually, a shade fatter), and weight as a Calor 13kg so, if you are happy to hump a Calor cylinder in/out of your van, you'll have no problem with a Butagaz.

 

Providing you have a bulkhead mounted regulator, all you will need to connect the Butagaz to your regulator is a standard UK butane (note not propane) pigtail. The cylinder end is a simple, l/h threaded, screw on connection. No faff involved. The voice of (repeated) experience speaks! :-)

[Wilf]

Thank you for your replies.

 

I think Brian has it about right. But two 13kg bottles would not last 12 weeks with our usage. If we use sites and an electric hook-up then there would be no problem two 13kg bottles would be plenty.

So to buy a French bottles and gas for an initial outlay of 37 euros is far less than £276.95 for a 1 bottle Gaslow system.

To change a propane to a butane pigtail is no problem and I don’t mind humping the bottles about; If I was not able too then there may be reason for this consideration.

 

If I may answer to you rupert123, when you say “….although we stay mainly on sites, do not like spending our holidays mainly in carparks…….” Niether do I. If an Aire is like a car park then I would move on. But if you have used the aires on the Iile de Oleron you would not say they are car parks. (Old camp sites). Perhaps the Aire at Narbonne Plage could be regarded as a car park, but what a car park adjacent to the Med. I have even been on an old camp site in the Franch passion scheme. What’s better that being on your own or with perhaps two other MH’s in the vines or an apple orchard on a cider farm?

 

One further question if I may ask. Are any of the French makes, i.e. Antargaz, Butagaz, Primagaz or Totalgaz available in countries other than France?

Thanks Wilf

 

[Brian Kirby]

Wilf - 2012-02-04 4:05 PM............................One further question if I may ask. Are any of the French makes, i.e. Antargaz, Butagaz, Primagaz or Totalgaz available in countries other than France?

Thanks Wilf

For practical intents and purposes, no. There is no general facility to swap cylinders obtained in one country for cylinders supplied in another, and little to no harmonisation of cylinder connections between countries.

 

If you want to spend extended time outside France, at your rate of consumption, I'd either use sites and site facilities, including EHU, at least some of the time, to reduce your use of gas, or bite the bullet and get a refillable installation.

 

If persisting with exchange cylinders, you will find they work out relatively expensive, as you will keep having to open new contracts in new countries (for Spain, as I understand it, the only viable work-around is to buy an empty Repsol or Cepsa cylinder at a flea market, and then swap that for a full one), and you will need to keep swapping pigtails to suit the differing national connectors. You would also need to return the cylinders before you leave each country, empty or not, to redeem any hire deposit.

 

However, consumption of 26kg propane over 6 - 8 weeks seems quite heavy. Are you using heating a lot?

[rupert123]

Wilf - 2012-02-04 4:05 PM

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

I think Brian has it about right. But two 13kg bottles would not last 12 weeks with our usage. If we use sites and an electric hook-up then there would be no problem two 13kg bottles would be plenty.

So to buy a French bottles and gas for an initial outlay of 37 euros is far less than £276.95 for a 1 bottle Gaslow system.

To change a propane to a butane pigtail is no problem and I don’t mind humping the bottles about; If I was not able too then there may be reason for this consideration.

 

If I may answer to you rupert123, when you say “….although we stay mainly on sites, do not like spending our holidays mainly in carparks…….” Niether do I. If an Aire is like a car park then I would move on. But if you have used the aires on the Iile de Oleron you would not say they are car parks. (Old camp sites). Perhaps the Aire at Narbonne Plage could be regarded as a car park, but what a car park adjacent to the Med. I have even been on an old camp site in the Franch passion scheme. What’s better that being on your own or with perhaps two other MH’s in the vines or an apple orchard on a cider farm?

 

One further question if I may ask. Are any of the French makes, i.e. Antargaz, Butagaz, Primagaz or Totalgaz available in countries other than France?

Thanks Wilf

 

Well you may be correct Wilf but i figure it is just as accurate as your regimented sites remark, doubt the french would know how to regiment anything.

[Patricia]

You do not indicate how old your m/home is so I do not know which gas system you use. My 'van was built in 2001 so it is the old system. I therefore use 2 x Le Cube (propane) but have a BP light to use in the UK if necessary. My clip-on connections fit both types of bottle so no messing about changing the adaptors. When you pay a deposit on the Cube (also available in butane if you prefer) you will be supplied with an adaptor. I think I paid about €26 euros for the first bottle which would have been full of course but from time to time they have special offers. A refill is usually about €13 for the 6kgs.I have never experieced any problems locating refills and they are nice and light to carry. At French supermarkets the gas is usually after the filling area, which I have found in some that the roof is too low to enter, so some walking is ofter required. Empty bottled ok but with full can be difficult for me so I need a light bottle.

 

Have just checked and the €9.50 "consigne" on the larger bottles is only until 31 March then it reverts to €19. The consigne for the Cube is €29 but with the paperwork you can get a full refund.

[hallii]

I use one propane and a Gaslow system. The Gaslow can be easily refilled all over Europe, it is worth it weight in gold, just for the peace of mind factor.

 

Go on, spend the money, you won't regret it.

 

H

[vindiboy]

I took the bulkhead Regulator off my van a couple of years ago and now use  bottle regulators , this way I can use any Countries  Gas bottles simply by fitting the correct regulator to my hoses, I looked at Gaslow  refillable  bottles and thought , "I can buy a lot of gas for that money". so I  didn't get the system ,various people I have met on my travels have had problems with Gaslow systems , and  problems I can do without, works for me.

[Arthur Brown]

Hi

I have one 11kg gaslow cylinder coupled with a calor lite 6kg. both go into a changeover switch then into the fitted regulator. A couple of experiences:-

First, I used to have the connection between bottles and regulator as a tube so that any cylinder could be fitted. A one year old tube (date on tube) got a hole in it and leaked gas. Quickly found and sorted but it could have manifest itself at night and may have done us some harm. Replaced with copper pipe where possible and certainly back to regulator beyond which I used high pressure hose.

Secondly, when I took the van for hab check last month I mentioned I could smell gas and asked them to find the leak. They did, it was the gas low bottle and they couldn't do anything to cure it.

So there are two gas leak situations which focus the mind. The gaslow system is two years old and did not leak the last time I fed it fairy liquid. In support of gaslow, I contacted them on the Monday and explained the situation. They nominated a dealer close to me and arranged to send a new cylinder for me to swap - I did the swap on the Wednesday. Cannot fault the service. I have used the system for just over two years and have filled up in France and Spain without problem. Cost does not come into it. I have it for the ease of refil.

Art

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Butagaz propane, seems to be the most widely available, some other brands seem less so.

 

P.S don't worry about Henry's comments ( Rupert123 ) he wants everyone to convert to using sites, an endeavour I whole heartedly support. ( More room for us then on Aires ) :D

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-04 4:36 PM

 

...However, consumption of 26kg propane over 6 - 8 weeks seems quite heavy. Are you using heating a lot?

 

Wilf's 'summer' gas consumption rate of 26kg of gas (52-ish litres) for 42-56 days for just "water heating, cooking and the fridge/freezer" with no electric hook-up equates roughly to my own, which tends to average out at one litre per day.

 

rupert123's rough estimate of his gas consumption of 12kg (24-ish litres) in 42 days averages out at 0.57 litres per day, despite staying mainly on campsites (presumably using EHU). This suggests that he must do an awful lot of cooking as, when we use a campsite hook-up, our fridge/feezer and water/air heating are running on 230V, and just the kitchen-hob uses gas.

[Derek Uzzell]

Patricia - 2012-02-04 4:42 PM

 

...Have just checked and the €9.50 "consigne" on the larger bottles is only until 31 March then it reverts to €19...

 

Are you sure that's not just for the Butagaz "Viseo" container, Patricia?

 

http://www.butagaz.fr/solutions-butagaz/particuliers/tarifs-domestiques-prix-bouteille-gaz.aspx

 

Although the Viseo container is much lighter than a traditional French large metal gas canister, Viseo only contains 10kg of butane. There's no indication on the Butagaz website of a recommended exchange price for a Viseo bottle, but it's likely to be significantly higher, on a cost-per-kg-of-gas basis, than the price of a Butagaz 13kg steel canister. My experience is that, although there are plenty of French retail outlets marketing Viseo, the container is still much less widely available than the 13kg steel container. If bottle weight and bottle dimensions are not a constraint, and minimum cost + maximum availability are important, then a Butagaz 13kg container would be the logical choice.

[JamesFrance]

I can only comment for my area of France, but the refill of Viseo is not more expensive per kilo than the old metal cylinders. They are also available in quantity in any outlet which sells the traditional heavy steel cylinders. As only butane is approved for indoor use in France and it is normal practice to locate a butane cylinder in a kitchen cupboard, as we tend to have electric ovens but gas hotplates. This means that a full cylinder has to be carried into the house which is why so many French residents are changing over to Viseo as we have done.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-05 8:18 AM.........................rupert123's rough estimate of his gas consumption of 12kg (24-ish litres) in 42 days averages out at 0.57 litres per day, despite staying mainly on campsites (presumably using EHU). This suggests that he must do an awful lot of cooking as, when we use a campsite hook-up, our fridge/feezer and water/air heating are running on 230V, and just the kitchen-hob uses gas.

Agreed, which is why we get about 12 weeks off one 13kg propane with only intermittent use of fridge on gas (stops, visits, supermarkets etc) and occasional use of heating/hot water. Interesting comparison.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-05 8:18 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-04 4:36 PM

 

...However, consumption of 26kg propane over 6 - 8 weeks seems quite heavy. Are you using heating a lot?

 

Wilf's 'summer' gas consumption rate of 26kg of gas (52-ish litres) for 42-56 days for just "water heating, cooking and the fridge/freezer" with no electric hook-up equates roughly to my own, which tends to average out at one litre per day.

 

rupert123's rough estimate of his gas consumption of 12kg (24-ish litres) in 42 days averages out at 0.57 litres per day, despite staying mainly on campsites (presumably using EHU). This suggests that he must do an awful lot of cooking as, when we use a campsite hook-up, our fridge/feezer and water/air heating are running on 230V, and just the kitchen-hob uses gas.

 

Couple of points Derek, first I do no cooking at all, hate it, very good at washing up though. Second I did not say we use 12kg in six weeks, what I said was 2 x 6kg lasts us easily for six weeks. I know we have always used one bottle as they have changed over, we have an auto changover, but how much we have used from second no idea. I will take more notice of how much it takes to refill next time.

[Mel B]

If anyone is interested, someone is selling a couple of Gaslow bottles in the 'Buy and Sell' section of the site.

[laimeduck]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-04 2:43 PM

 

We have one UK Calor, one French Butagaz, both 13kg propane.

 

One cylinder lasts us around 12 weeks, but we tend to use sites.

 

Butagaz propane is very widely available from supermarkets almost all over France. See Derek's post for current prices. Look for the metallic light blue bottom-half, silver top-half, Butagaz cylinder. The cylinder is steel, and approximately the same shape, size (actually, a shade fatter), and weight as a Calor 13kg so, if you are happy to hump a Calor cylinder in/out of your van, you'll have no problem with a Butagaz.

 

Providing you have a bulkhead mounted regulator, all you will need to connect the Butagaz to your regulator is a standard UK butane (note not propane) pigtail. The cylinder end is a simple, l/h threaded, screw on connection. No faff involved. The voice of (repeated) experience speaks! :-)

 

Brian - I think this is the route I want to go but can I confirm a few things.

 

Can I confirm that we can simply buy a cylinder from a garage or Supermarche and simply pay a rental charge - no massive deposit?

I attach a picture of my bulkhead mounted regulator - is this OK?

I assume that the UK pigtail will fit the Butagaz cylinder top? standard thread size & direction?

Why a butane pigtail if you are using propane?

 

Our main use of gas is when we go skiing, so a replaceable cylinder is important to us, rather than say a refillable system, as we don't go out in the van, so can't refill it. Also our usage is higher than normal in the low temps.

 

Thanks

 

Edited with data from Regulator:

LPG 30 mbar, 1.5 Kg/hr, Kavagna Group type 424C, EN12864 annex D,

(Sorry about the quality, the regulator info was upside down, I had to take the photo with a mirror then reverse it!)

[BGD]

vindiboy - 2012-02-04 8:28 PM

 

I took the bulkhead Regulator off my van a couple of years ago and now use  bottle regulators , this way I can use any Countries  Gas bottles simply by fitting the correct regulator to my hoses, I looked at Gaslow  refillable  bottles and thought , "I can buy a lot of gas for that money". so I  didn't get the system ,various people I have met on my travels have had problems with Gaslow systems , and  problems I can do without, works for me.

 

 

 

That seems to me to be the simple and ideal solution.

 

Do away with the bulkhead regulator, and simply have a selection of bottle-top regulators instead that you can jubilee clip to a length of the flexible hose which attaches to your fixed copper pipe.

Then just swop regulator as needed to fit the tops of gas bottles in the various European countries.

 

Is there some law in the UK that says you MUST have a bulkhead regulator?

'Cos there certainly isn't there in Spain. Our Spanish motorhome has always just had just a length of the orange flexible hose, with a bottle top regulator on the end.

 

 

 

 

If it's any help, the bottle-top regulator system right across Spain and Portugal is now universal for all sizes and types of gas bottles sold by Repsol and Cepsa (the two big suppliers), and also by Shell and the other small fry here.

So just the one clip-on bottle-top 30mbar regulator is all you need anywhere in these two countries. Any DIY shop, and all the big supermarkets, and some garages too, sell them for maybe 10 euros.

[Robinhood]

laimeduck - 2012-02-14 4:01 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-04 2:43 PM

 

We have one UK Calor, one French Butagaz, both 13kg propane.

 

One cylinder lasts us around 12 weeks, but we tend to use sites.

 

Butagaz propane is very widely available from supermarkets almost all over France. See Derek's post for current prices. Look for the metallic light blue bottom-half, silver top-half, Butagaz cylinder. The cylinder is steel, and approximately the same shape, size (actually, a shade fatter), and weight as a Calor 13kg so, if you are happy to hump a Calor cylinder in/out of your van, you'll have no problem with a Butagaz.

 

Providing you have a bulkhead mounted regulator, all you will need to connect the Butagaz to your regulator is a standard UK butane (note not propane) pigtail. The cylinder end is a simple, l/h threaded, screw on connection. No faff involved. The voice of (repeated) experience speaks! :-)

 

Brian - I think this is the route I want to go but can I confirm a few things.

 

Can I confirm that we can simply buy a cylinder from a garage or Supermarche and simply pay a rental charge - no massive deposit?

I attach a picture of my bulkhead mounted regulator - is this OK?

I assume that the UK pigtail will fit the Butagaz cylinder top? standard thread size & direction?

Why a butane pigtail if you are using propane?

 

Our main use of gas is when we go skiing, so a replaceable cylinder is important to us, rather than say a refillable system, as we don't go out in the van, so can't refill it. Also our usage is higher than normal in the low temps.

 

Thanks

 

Edited with data from Regulator:

LPG 30 mbar, 1.5 Kg/hr, Kavagna Group type 424C, EN12864 annex D,

(Sorry about the quality, the regulator info was upside down, I had to take the photo with a mirror then reverse it!)

 

If I read the Butagaz website correctly, there is a deposit, but hardly extortionate at €9 or less!

 

Your regulator should be fine, BUT, Brian has given you the clue about the pigtail required. Though the gas is propane, the Butagaz bottle outlet is the same as a UK butane bottle. Hence, prepurchasing a UK butane pigtail here will prepare you for the French propane bottle.

 

I am assuming that your regulator will take a generic UK "bulkhead" pigtail (I see no reason why not, as the types were generally standardised, but the Cavagna Group website is not particularly informative), and note that, in switching bottles from a UK to French, and v.v., you will also need to swap the pigtail (and will thus need the appropriate spanner for both ends of the thing).

[laimeduck]

Robinhood - 2012-02-14 4:25 PM

 

laimeduck - 2012-02-14 4:01 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-04 2:43 PM

 

We have one UK Calor, one French Butagaz, both 13kg propane.

 

One cylinder lasts us around 12 weeks, but we tend to use sites.

 

Butagaz propane is very widely available from supermarkets almost all over France. See Derek's post for current prices. Look for the metallic light blue bottom-half, silver top-half, Butagaz cylinder. The cylinder is steel, and approximately the same shape, size (actually, a shade fatter), and weight as a Calor 13kg so, if you are happy to hump a Calor cylinder in/out of your van, you'll have no problem with a Butagaz.

 

Providing you have a bulkhead mounted regulator, all you will need to connect the Butagaz to your regulator is a standard UK butane (note not propane) pigtail. The cylinder end is a simple, l/h threaded, screw on connection. No faff involved. The voice of (repeated) experience speaks! :-)

 

Brian - I think this is the route I want to go but can I confirm a few things.

 

Can I confirm that we can simply buy a cylinder from a garage or Supermarche and simply pay a rental charge - no massive deposit?

I attach a picture of my bulkhead mounted regulator - is this OK?

I assume that the UK pigtail will fit the Butagaz cylinder top? standard thread size & direction?

Why a butane pigtail if you are using propane?

 

Our main use of gas is when we go skiing, so a replaceable cylinder is important to us, rather than say a refillable system, as we don't go out in the van, so can't refill it. Also our usage is higher than normal in the low temps.

 

Thanks

 

Edited with data from Regulator:

LPG 30 mbar, 1.5 Kg/hr, Kavagna Group type 424C, EN12864 annex D,

(Sorry about the quality, the regulator info was upside down, I had to take the photo with a mirror then reverse it!)

 

If I read the Butagaz website correctly, there is a deposit, but hardly extortionate at €9 or less!

 

Your regulator should be fine, BUT, Brian has given you the clue about the pigtail required. Though the gas is propane, the Butagaz bottle outlet is the same as a UK butane bottle. Hence, prepurchasing a UK butane pigtail here will prepare you for the French propane bottle.

 

I am assuming that your regulator will take a generic UK "bulkhead" pigtail (I see no reason why not, as the types were generally standardised, but the Cavagna Group website is not particularly informative), and note that, in switching bottles from a UK to French, and v.v., you will also need to swap the pigtail (and will thus need the appropriate spanner for both ends of the thing).

 

Robin - At present we have 2 calor propane cylinders feeding it via an automatic changeover fitting as pictured. The pigtail from the changeover goes to the regulator, so I imagine I will need a Pigtail from the Butagaz to the changover valve.

Since my original post, I managed to find data for the Cavagna 424C which says Butane or Propane - as pictures:-

 

 

 

[JamesFrance]

Here is the Butagaz connector for a 13kg propane to be attached to a bulkhead mounted regulator.

 

http://boutique.butagaz.fr/Pages/Article.aspx?articleId=688&catId=16&pid=5&inSubCat=False

 

Is it the same as a UK butane connector?

[Robinhood]

JamesFrance - 2012-02-14 5:46 PM

 

Here is the Butagaz connector for a 13kg propane to be attached to a bulkhead mounted regulator.

 

http://boutique.butagaz.fr/Pages/Article.aspx?articleId=688&catId=16&pid=5&inSubCat=False

 

Is it the same as a UK butane connector?

 

The rapid connector pictured here doesn't give a good view, but the regulator page from the same site does:

 

http://boutique.butagaz.fr/Pages/Article.aspx?articleId=550&catId=16&pid=5&inSubCat=False

 

.....propane regulator for (all) 13kg French bottles - same connection as UK butane (as per Brian's original)