Mickydripin Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I have been considdering an A frame and have just brought a car to tow. My car is a Toyota Aygo with a multi mode gearbox. I asked before I purchased it if it was ok to tow for long periods with that type of gearbox and they refered me to the instruction book and that said that I could tow with a dolly. I went on the net to see what they meant by a dolly and found that a dolly could be an aframe or a carrage with two wheels that you drive the cars front wheels on to and hook up to your towball. Can anyone explain to me? is there sutch a thing I have seen the AA use one but that looked an expensive bit of kit and heavy, is it safer to use. Can you tow with one of these things at high speed 60/70ish for long periods or are they just for short journeys. Dare I ask without starting world war three? If you can use the one with wheels would you be able to use it in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Sorry my finger slipt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Towing dollies are used by recovery services and I would have thought for use you are thinking of would be completely impractical. With all the legal aspects involved with A frames I would have think a trailor would be the only sensible answer if you insist on towing with a motorhome. If you wish to use an A frame anyway why on earth buy a car with any type of auto box? Sorry to sound unhelpfull but doubt anyone would know the law regarding these in UK let alone Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-02-04 1:03 PM Dare I ask without starting world war three? If you can use the one with wheels would you be able to use it in Spain. As you can only tow a car in Spain if all it's four wheels are off the ground, one of these gadgets would clearly not be accepted. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-02-04 1:03 PM I have been considdering an A frame and have just brought a car to tow. My car is a Toyota Aygo with a multi mode gearbox. I asked before I purchased it if it was ok to tow for long periods with that type of gearbox and they refered me to the instruction book and that said that I could tow with a dolly. I went on the net to see what they meant by a dolly and found that a dolly could be an aframe or a carrage with two wheels that you drive the cars front wheels on to and hook up to your towball. Can anyone explain to me? is there sutch a thing I have seen the AA use one but that looked an expensive bit of kit and heavy, is it safer to use. Can you tow with one of these things at high speed 60/70ish for long periods or are they just for short journeys. Dare I ask without starting world war three? If you can use the one with wheels would you be able to use it in Spain. Hi Mick Re the gearbox, my guess is that they mean it can only be towed with the front wheels off the ground. A call to Toyota customer services should resolve that. It is illegal to use an unbraked A-frame, often called a dolly, in UK for any reason other than vehicle recovery. Braked A-frames are not illegal in UK, but their use is illegal in both France and Spain. For peace of mind, if going abroad, you really need a trailer. I suggest you check the weight of the car, and any trailer you may get to carry it, against the towing limit of your van. Have a look at Ifor Williams trailers. http://tinyurl.com/74ljpyv Final point, if the police check your rig in France (don't know about Spain, but this seems the fail safe option) they will look at the VIN plate under the van's bonnet for the towing limit, and at the plated MAM of the trailer for confirmation it is equal to, or lower than, the van's towing limit. The actual laden weight of the trailer won't count - unless it is over-loaded! So, for example, if your van has a 1,500kg towing limit, and you tow a trailer plated to 2,000kg, it will be illegal, even if unladen. If you tow a trailer plated to 1,500kg, and loaded to 1,500kg or less, you will be fine. And of course, if you tow a trailer plated to 1,400kg, but loaded to 1,500kg, it will be illegally overloaded everywhere, whatever the towing limit of your van! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hello, My Thread 'Which' a-Frame, is asking similar questions, apart from the 'Towing in Europe' bit, as i gather THAT is illegal with an A-Frame. A 'Dolly' as others have said are used by recovery companies to recover broken down vehicles, but NOT I would assume in France or Spain ? There are several makes of A-Frames in the UK, and John Wickesham recently did an article in the MMM about them, (i'm still searching for it !). They are 'purpose built' for towing small cars behind Motorhomes. And although their websites are in French and Dutch as well as English it appears that European law prohibits them in those countries ? Good luck with your search. :D Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-04 4:54 PM.................... A 'Dolly' as others have said are used by recovery companies to recover broken down vehicles, but NOT I would assume in France or Spain ? ....................Ray You're getting there, Ray, but not quite there yet! :-D It is not the device that is illegal in France/Spain, it is unauthorised towing. It is legal for an unauthorised vehicle to tow another in France, but only in the event of breakdown or emergency, only if using a rigid, homologated, tow pole, only at low speed, only with the hazard flashers operating, and then only to clear a road, or convey the vehicle for repair. So, hardly relevant to an A-frame. Authorised vehicles, i.e. recovery vehicles, could use a dolly or a lift, as authorised. It is illegal for an unauthorised vehicle to tow another vehicle in Spain, but not for an authorised vehicle to do so. So, as in France, the authorised recovery vehicle could use a dolly or a lift, as authorised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 There is a significant difference between a "dolly" and an "A frame". A dolly is a two wheeled trailer in its own right and the vehicle to be towed will have its (usually) front wheels raised up and strapped into a spec frame on top of the dolly. A vehicle being towed with a dolly will have no brakes in operation, not even on the dolly and the outfit is subject to restricted speeds of 40MPH on dual carriageways and 30 MPH on single carriageways. Dollys are primarily intended for recovery/breakdown work and should only be used to remove a vehicle to a place of safety or the nearest place of repair if required. An A frame is a device that allows the towed vehicle to be towed on all of its own wheels. Recovery A frames are available cheaply that will attach to the front suspension with either chains or wide fabric straps but the more common type in use by motorhomers attaches to the towed (toad) vehicle via purpose designed fixings (although some systems apparently use the manufacturers towing/lashing eye(s)). Recovery type A frames will not include any braking system. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Thanks Brian and Dave, hopefully i'll get it it all soon, the legalities and the technical details. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Thanks everybody for your replys I understand things a bit more a dolly is therefore out of the question. Back to the drawing board. On the question of the Multi mode gearbox I have been informed that there is no problem towing as I just need to put it in neutral Just in case you say that it is obvious I have test driven the one with manuel gears but not the multimode one so I have not looked at the positions on the box. The reason that we have chosen the multimode is my other half prefers the automatic. For many years now I have had the car that I wanted (A Volvo) and it is going to kill me to give it up but it is her turn now. I have had my way long enough and I have to think of her, This is my choice to do this and she has said have your Volvo if you want. Tempting but NOOOOOOOOO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-04 4:54 PM ...John Wickersham recently did an article in the MMM about them, (i'm still searching for it !)... "A-FRAME APPRAISAL" MMM August 2007 pages 195-202 - how time flies. ;-) Worth highlighting that JW's piece deliberately chooses not to discuss the 'legality' of motorhome A-framing in the UK, concentrating instead on safety-related aspects. So, if anyone's looking for an authoritative opinion on the UK legailty of this practice, JW's article will disappoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I would go with Brian K's first remark. A dolly (generally) lifts the driven wheels off the ground and in this country is limited soley for car recovery. I doubt if Mr Toyota at the garage even knows what an A frame is !! ( My opinion of Mr T at our local garage !) We have an IQ3 Automatic and it IS NOT TOO BE TOWED. Winched up a flatbed truck would just about be its movable limit. I am pretty certain that that later Aygo has the same gearbox, Earlier Aygos had MMM auto gearbox which could be towed. Whichever I would get Mr T to confirm in writting, that is OK to tow it. (Good luck with that one !) I am NOT going down the A frame V Traler debate. Rgds PS edit Only to add that the handbook may not up to date with the car manufacture (Manufacturer retains the right to improve etc ) and you could have the later gearbox, but not know it ? Pay to double check/ (as one happy Toyota owner to another) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hi Tony thanks for your advice about the MMt gearbox and thanks to others that questioned why I was having an automatic gear box that would be towed with an a frame. After reading your posts I rang Toyota customer services on Monday and asked them if I could tow my Aygo with the MMt gearbox behind my Motorhome. I was first told by the salespeople that I could, The answer from Toyota customer services IS NO! YOU CAN NOT TOW IT ON AN A FRAME. Using the MMM forum has saved me a lot of problems and maybe even an accident if I had gone ahead and believed what I was told by the sales staff. Now as it is a new car they have changed it for a new car with a manuel gearbox. Sorted due to help from a great bunch of MMM members. Take a pat on the back. Now I just have to look for a good A frame Many thanks: Mike *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Oh!...so they've actually swapped the car then?...Well that's a result! 8-) Good to hear it worked out... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-05 5:45 PM Rayjsj - 2012-02-04 4:54 PM ...John Wickersham recently did an article in the MMM about them, (i'm still searching for it !)... "A-FRAME APPRAISAL" MMM August 2007 pages 195-202 - how time flies. ;-) Worth highlighting that JW's piece deliberately chooses not to discuss the 'legality' of motorhome A-framing in the UK, concentrating instead on safety-related aspects. So, if anyone's looking for an authoritative opinion on the UK legailty of this practice, JW's article will disappoint. Thanks for that Derek, It will be my 'bedtime reading' tonight. as an aside, did you notice that there was NO 'Index' for the previous year, in this February's MMM ?? will make life much harder for the 'Archivist's' among us. If it's good enough for JW it'll do for me . ;-) Ray ps I wonder WHY the Auto Aygo cannot be towed ?? Perhaps an 'auto-teccy' can tell us ?? And whats an 'IQ3' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 "I wonder WHY the Auto Aygo cannot be towed ?? Perhaps an 'auto-teccy' can tell us ?? And whats an 'IQ3' ?" Ray, Toyota likes to comfuse with names like MMt and MDt, Aygo and iQ. iQ is a model which is smaller than the AYGO. There are basically 3 iQ models, iQ, iQ2, and iQ3 increasing spec as number goes up. The iQ series as an automatic option using a CVT 9 constamtly variable transimission and they call it MultiDrive Transmission. This cannot be towed with driven wheels turning because of how gearbox works. I believe the Aygo only has the MultiMode transmission as an automatic option and is a conventional gearbox with electronic controlled clutch. This can be towed in neutral as it is a normal type box inside. Very easy to get comfused between MultiDrive and MultiMode. Think of Drive as being the continuously variable drive, and Mode being gear selection mode might make it easier to work out. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 sorry, did not explain exactly why MultiDrive (in an iQ) cannot be towed. The variable drive is carried out by a belt ( its actually a chain but looks beltish) running between two vraiable diameter pitch pulleys..basically. So in effect a ratio is always selected. The drive input from the engine is via a viscous coupling like in a conventional automatic box. This allows for the 'slip' when the engine is idling and you are stationary in drive mode. There will be a clutch of some kind and I cannot remember if it is a mechanical or electric clutch arrangement in teh Toyota iQ to disengage drive all together (neutral). However this is between the viscous coupling and the belt and pulleys. So when you tow the belts and pulleys will still be turning and heat is generated and excessive wear as oil is not being pumped around to keep it cool and hunky dory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 If you remember the old DAF continuously variable automatic transmission based on glorified rubber bands, it is one of them-ish! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 "I wonder WHY the Auto Aygo cannot be towed ?? Perhaps an 'auto-teccy' can tell us ?? And whats an 'IQ3' ?" Ray, Toyota likes to comfuse with names like MMt and MDt, Aygo and iQ. iQ is a model which is smaller than the AYGO. There are basically 3 iQ models, iQ, iQ2, and iQ3 increasing spec as number goes up. The iQ series as an automatic option using a CVT 9 constamtly variable transimission and they call it MultiDrive Transmission. This cannot be towed with driven wheels turning because of how gearbox works. I believe the Aygo only has the MultiMode transmission as an automatic option and is a conventional gearbox with electronic controlled clutch. This can be towed in neutral as it is a normal type box inside. Sorry Brambles. The MMt or multimode gearbox as it is called may have a neutral but on the advice from the Toyota customer services and the technical department it can not be towed as I would have had it if it could That is why they have changed it for the Manuel gearbox. I would be pretty mad if I found out otherwise as My wife liked that sort of gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 All I can say is they used to be towable an Toyota would confirm they could be towed. (3 years ago). Maybe they have changed their tone because they have had problems. If they say they cannot be towed then obviousy that is the advice you must use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Here we go again. Round and round ad nauseum. Why don't people use the search facility as this topic has been done to death many times already. Even though I've got an a frame it's getting tedious to keep seeing this resurected all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Don;t read it then Pete :D get back to little England and have a vino or three ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Peter. If you read this post properley you will see that it is about towing a specific car behind my motorhome as I had seen them a few times behind motorhomes I was not asking about A frames I know A frames/dollys are mentioned but this thred was not about A Frames. there I have mentioned them three times and I am sick of them now. This post was specifically about towing an AYGO with a multimode gearbox and I got some realy good advice so unless you can help on this subject go back to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I have seen a Toyota 'IQ' today, looks quite a bit like a 'Smart' Car. (is THAT why Toyota called it an 'IQ' ? IQ = Smart ??? ) I'll get my coat. *-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-09 10:08 PM I have seen a Toyota 'IQ' today, looks quite a bit like a 'Smart' Car. (is THAT why Toyota called it an 'IQ' ? IQ = Smart ??? ) I'll get my coat. *-) Ray (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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