Clive Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Sometimes one can see future plans dissapearing into the future. But definitions first. Dolly - A device that supports the front (or rear wheels) of a vehicle for recovery purposes only. A Frame. A rigid type tow bar that forces the towed vehicle to follow the towing vehicle which remains on its own wheels. These are now illegal in both France and spain as has been said and I suspect that their dislike by the authorities is likely to spread Europe wide - including the UK under the "Harmonisation of Rules" thingemy. So my guess is that these A frame makers are quickly working out how thay can make a FOLDING cost effective trailer for small cars, like Aygo, C1, 107 etc. But first I still want a BMW R1200 bike. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 That's Funny, I want a new Triumph Bonneville T100, but the missus won't let me. Would you come around and talk to her Clive ? as how a' second adolescence' will be good for me. (by the way,Bonneville's always used to be T120's, and a T100 was a 'Tiger 100' a 500cc bike, but that progress i suppose.) I used to ride a Thunderbird, but always wanted a Bonneville. Don't you just hate this EU 'Harmonisation' ? I would rather 'Harmonise' with the US. at least I can understand what they are saying to me. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbotham Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Clive - 2012-02-09 10:29 PM So my guess is that these A frame makers are quickly working out how thay can make a FOLDING cost effective trailer for small cars, like Aygo, C1, 107 etc. C. You mean like these Clive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 These are now illegal in both France and spain -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry clive I know that it is ileagal in Spain but when did it become ileagal in France if that is the case then this should end the A frame debate now on the continent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Braked A-frames are not illegal in UK, but their use is illegal in both France and Spain. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry Brian I forgot to include this message to you as well I know A frames are ileagal in Spain but when was France included in this. Also I would give a trailor a try but I think that the weight of the trailor and the car would be too heavy for my CI Carioca 694 if my calculations are right. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-02-10 12:25 PM Braked A-frames are not illegal in UK, but their use is illegal in both France and Spain. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry Brian I forgot to include this message to you as well I know A frames are ileagal in Spain but when was France included in this. Also I would give a trailor a try but I think that the weight of the trailor and the car would be too heavy for my CI Carioca 694 if my calculations are right. Mike. Make of this what you will. http://www.ffcc.fr/actualites/310/0/voiture-attelee-a-un-camping-car-quelle-reglementation.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-09 10:52 PM................Don't you just hate this EU 'Harmonisation' ? I would rather 'Harmonise' with the US. at least I can understand what they are saying to me. Ray Phooey! :-) That just proves you didn't read that helpful link someone (apologies) posted to the Brake buddy website on your A-frame post that explained, in terms, a) that they don't work except for purely cosmetic purposes and b) the virtually every state in the US has different towing laws. :-) I already knew they had varying gun laws, and a number of other things. So yes, they all talk the same language, but when they do, they all mean different things in different places. At least in Europe one knows they may mean different things, because they talk different languages, but the main laws are consistent across the countries. It's just a case of choose your variety of chaos. Besides, I like the differing languages, they brighten many an otherwise dull day! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-02-10 12:25 PM Braked A-frames are not illegal in UK, but their use is illegal in both France and Spain. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry Brian I forgot to include this message to you as well I know A frames are ileagal in Spain but when was France included in this. Also I would give a trailor a try but I think that the weight of the trailor and the car would be too heavy for my CI Carioca 694 if my calculations are right. Mike. Follow this link, Mick, and look for Retread's post, it should explain all (in English :-)): http://tinyurl.com/7ec6pdv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The situation in France regarding motorhome A-frame towing is a mite odd - the story goes something like this ... French motorcaravanners used to see UK motorcaravanners towing cars on an A-frame, but the equipment to do this was not marketed in France, and received wisdom there was that the practice was definitely prohibited for French nationals. Then, fairly recently, the UK firms Car-a-Tow and Towtal began to market A-frames in that country and, because French motorcaravanners appreciated the advantages of that towing system compared to carrying a car on a trailer, sales (it appears) have been remarkably successful. France has 'emergency only' car-towing regulations. Additionally, the French 'Highway Code' defines the specific combinations of towing vehicle + 'trailer(s)' that are legally acceptable in France. A motor-vehicle towing another motor-vehicle is not included in that definition. It seems plain then that, for French nationals, motorhome A-frame towing is prohibited, and this is the advice that spokesmen for French motorhome manufacturers, clubs, etc have given to French motorcaravanners. To counter this advice, the firms marketing A-frames in France use a 'homologation' argument that claims that, as the equipment they sell is legal outside France, it's legal within France. This of course is complete twaddle, as it's not the equipment that's the legal issue, it's using it to tow a car. As far as I'm aware, despite being asked to provide proof that the PRACTICE of A-frame towing is legal outside France (which might be a potentially credible EU-harmonisation argument), this proof has never been forthcoming from the French A-frame vendors. Despite the above, French motorcaravanners (or at least some of them) seem able to obtain insurance for A-frame towing, and seem prepared to accept the A-frame vendors' "It's all perfectly legal" assurances and ignore "It's illegal in France" advice from anybody else. I don't know if any French (or other nationality) A-framer has been prosecuted in France, and it may well be that the French police will choose to turn a blind eye to the practice as long as there are no accidents that can be attributed to it. As far as I can see, there is no doubt that, for French nationals, A-framing is prohibited, and no good reason to suggest that the prohibition does not apply to non-French A-framers towing in France. On a illegalty/prosecution risk-assessment basis, I'd say that in the UK A-framing illegality is debatable and the risk of prosecution minimal, in France A-framing is illegal but (at present) the risk of prosecution is fairly low, and in Spain A-framing is illegal and the risk of prosecution is high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 Braked A-frames are not illegal in UK, but their use is illegal in both France and Spain. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry Brian I forgot to include this message to you as well I know A frames are ileagal in Spain but when was France included in this. Also I would give a trailor a try but I think that the weight of the trailor and the car would be too heavy for my CI Carioca 694 if my calculations are right. Mike. Follow this link, Mick, and look for Retread's post, it should explain all (in English ): http://tinyurl.com/7ec6pdv Thanks once again brian. Do I tow on an A frame do I trailor it or do I just forget them all the problem is when I go to France I stay in one place for a couple of months or more and then travel around. *-) Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 As far as I can see, there is no doubt that, for French nationals, A-framing is prohibited, and no good reason to suggest that the prohibition does not apply to non-French A-framers towing in France. On a illegalty/prosecution risk-assessment basis, I'd say that in the UK A-framing illegality is debatable and the risk of prosecution minimal, in France A-framing is illegal but (at present) the risk of prosecution is fairly low, and in Spain A-framing is illegal and the risk of prosecution is high. Edited by Derek Uzzell 2012-02-11 9:52 AM Thanks Derek. What with both yours and Brians answer there seems a big grey area in France and I suppose it is just a matter of time to see if anyone gets stopped. If anyone does get fined in France I hope they will come and tell us but no doubt it will be a lot more than Spain as the French like to add noughts on the end of there fines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-02-11 2:02 PM......................What with both yours and Brians answer there seems a big grey area in France and I suppose it is just a matter of time to see if anyone gets stopped. If anyone does get fined in France I hope they will come and tell us but no doubt it will be a lot more than Spain as the French like to add noughts on the end of there fines. I don't think there is actually much about it that is "grey" Mike, the combination seems quite clearly illegal under French law. All that seems to be happening is that the French police are turning a "blind eye", either because they have been asked to go easy on visitors, or because the French authorities have decided the Vienna convention rules can be applied - or maybe they just can't be fagged! :-D What weight can you tow with your van, and what is the kerb weight of your car? If you deduct the kerb weight of the car from your towing limit you will know the maximum salf-weight available for the trailer - if you decide to go that way. Then, all you'll need to find is a trailer that weight or less, with an adequate MAM for it plus the car. Try Bantam trailers? Ideally, for peace of mind in France, the trailer MAM should not exceed the towing limit for your van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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