Auto trail Chieftan

[Colin Leake]

michele - 2012-02-09 9:02 AM

 

OMG Mel, they are as big as Horse Boxes lol if only I could afford can't imagine you 's get many miles to the gallon from one of them.

 

No Excel it is and to the chap that mentioned Cranham. Thank you yes I know it well I find them very rude in as so much its Essex, and they think we are all chavs so they don't want to look in the vehicles they look you up and down and make a snap judgment on wether or not they think you have money .

 

All van are locked and if you ask to see, its like too much trouble (thats been my experience more than once ). So will avoid thank you anyway for trying .

 

 

So do we which is why I recommended Johns Cross. Nothing is too much trouble for them and they treat their customers like royalty which probably explains why they are so successful. They have a very well stocked accessory shop as well.

 

We never look as if we have the money but on one occasion I went into our local Merc agent in my usual well worn cloths. I must say the salesman was very attentive. At one point he looked at the watch I was wearing, smiled gently, and commented "Nice watch sir"! An experienced salesman that I'd say.

[michele]

Not wishing to turn it into a slag off dealership thread but here goes.

 

After the first Bessie we decided time to change and thought we would pop in there, Cranham.

f Essex Chav town . You could call it that .Anyway the guys were standing smoking , fag in hand leaning on the railings outside the office (I smoke) so no worries BUT I asked if we could look in the vans .

Which one a guy screamed . Eventually when he found the keys we said it wasnt for us and could we lookin another . Basically they were rude our kids cant jump all over them and in saying that we only had fred with us in a wheelchair . Very rude indeed .

After that we bought the Hobby at Brownhills.

After that deciding on change again (dont ask ) we went back on a lovely summers day and this time we interetsed in a Frankia got slightly more help but most probably because I called them said I came on this forum and that I didnt rate their service . its the quips they come out with down right rude.

 

Take today I called them to ask if they had the AT Chief in stock .

Hello can I help . I hope so can you tell me if you have the AT Chief in stock .

Second hand luv or new .Both said I .

Yes we do . Ok can I ask errrrrrrrrr that was a comma , he butted in and said, about the second hand one .

I said NO can I ask have you the model with a transverse bed garage and DD . Oh he said no we aint sorry cant help you luv .I said so what model have you got then he said chief LD & Commanche . He really couldnt wait to get meoff the phone .

 

Ok bye I put the phone down there really isnt any point this isnt the first time I have let them off the hook but it will be the last they are rude and ignorant and they assume they are selling to travellers chavs and lo lifes . How dare they travellers have lots of money and money is money how dare they assume to know what people are about . Seems to me that they dont want to work for their money.

I do feel sorry for them that they have to lock up the vans in the darkest of Essex but hey thats not my problem move your show room and I understand that people do let their kids jump all over again stay with the people that they are showing around and make sure but no the fags more important as is the cracks that most probably go on in the office with a cuppa.

Keep it Cranham. lost my sale . :-(

[twooks]

Come on Michele, don't beat about the bush,

Would you recommend Cranhams or not ??

[michele]

 

NO! Not Customer Friendly! on the edge of East London I understand but I aint being treated like a criminal. 8-)

[twooks]

i used to live on the edge of east london, went to school in east london

 

loved it :D

 

wouldn't go back for anything *-) >:-)

 

 

when's excel - next week by any chance, good hunting :D

[michele]

twooks - 2012-02-10 8:46 AM

 

i used to live on the edge of east london, went to school in east london

 

loved it :D

 

wouldn't go back for anything *-) >:-)

 

 

when's excel - next week by any chance, good hunting :D

 

Me too but times are a changing I like you wouldnt go back. And my mate sitting here is from Hackney ,oh no she wouldnt go back either . Excels next week yep .Good hunting I have a headache listening to him already my life :D

[GDH]

You need to come up North, got our last van AT chief highline from Todds near Preston, and the one before, a Bessacarr E495 from Campbells near Preston. The customer service is the best from both, and if I had to I would travel for it. 1st class. Nothing like Cranham's service, I rember them from years gone by, would seem like nothing has changed.

 

Good hunting for your next van, and have fun doing it.

[Brian Kirby]

michele - 2012-02-10 8:44 AM

 

NO! Not Customer Friendly! on the edge of East London I understand but I aint being treated like a criminal. 8-)

So, nearest to you (I think!) are John's Cross, Battle Road (A21), Robertsbridge, East Sussex, TN32 5JJ: Phone 01580 881288, or Freeborn Motorhomes, Guildford Road (A3100), Godalming, Surrey, GU7 3BU, Email sales@freebornmotorhomes.co.uk: Phone 01483 429999.

 

Other dealers are much further away - and having your friendly dealer within reach is always handy! :-) Don't know Freeborn, but John's Cross have always been pleasant and helpful when we've visited for odds and sods.

[Ris]

Can not praise Freeborn enough, first motorhome was a AT Cheyenne 840 s, changed this year to a marque they do not normally sell but obtained it for us without delay and have agreed to carry out any warranty work and servicing work. Do give them a ring, if unhappy ask to speak to Tina Poole.

Good luck. With regard to the cold cab, yes indeed we did find the cab cold and cold feet up at that end but got round it by purchasing curtains to our size from the upholstery manufacturers, not expensive Still have them if anyone is interested.. Strung these up on the high ledge using an extendable curtain pole and that certainly made a difference, yes you do loose the swung round passengers seat but only in the winter and believe me you would not want to sit in it when it is cold outside.

Look forward to seeing your final decision on the forum in due course.

Ris

[Colin Leake]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-10 12:50 PM

 

michele - 2012-02-10 8:44 AM

 

NO! Not Customer Friendly! on the edge of East London I understand but I aint being treated like a criminal. 8-)

So, nearest to you (I think!) are John's Cross, Battle Road (A21), Robertsbridge, East Sussex, TN32 5JJ: Phone 01580 881288, or Freeborn Motorhomes, Guildford Road (A3100), Godalming, Surrey, GU7 3BU, Email sales@freebornmotorhomes.co.uk: Phone 01483 429999.

 

Other dealers are much further away - and having your friendly dealer within reach is always handy! :-) Don't know Freeborn, but John's Cross have always been pleasant and helpful when we've visited for odds and sods.

 

We did buy our AutoTrali from Freeborn. They are friendly and do their best to help but they are basically a car dealer who happens to sell motorhomes. The handover was not good especially with regard the alarm we had fitted. It took a second visit on our part to meet with the company that fitted the alarm to get matters sorted out. If I were you I would go for John's Cross they have sold motorhomes since shortly after the battle of Hastings. The only reason we did not buy from them was they were not selling AutoTrail last year and apart from the fact we like to buy British there was not a Hobby that had the layout we needed.

 

Just one other thing I assume you have looked into not having to pay vat if on a motorhome that is modified for disabled use.

[Brian Kirby]

Having now got a bit more info, I can see one potential snag.

 

Front axle loading 2,100kg, rear axle loading 2 x 1,500kg = 3,000kg: total 5,100kg. The plated MAM is 5,000kg, so there is only 100kg latitude for load distribution. (For comparison, our squitty little 6 metre Tranny based van has 1,750kg front and 2,250kg rear, total 4,000kg, for a MAM of 3,500kg, so 500kg tolerance for load distribution.) 100kg on an 8.73 metre long van is a joke - and a bad one at that!

 

Fuel, water, and gas, are all quoted at 90%, whereas in the real world there will be times when all may be at 100%, so the MRO assumption is not, IMO, safe.

 

I note they are "silent" on the upward tolerance on MRO, but my understanding is that the standard permits 5%.

 

MRO with all reservoirs @ 90% is 4,000kg. Strip out the fuel, water and gas (because they will not be subject to the 5% tolerance) @ 90% = 245kg, leaving 3,755kg. Add the 5% tolerance, gives 3,943kg. Add back the fuel, gas, and water reservoirs at 100% capacity = 263kg.

 

Revised (safe) MRO now = 4,206kg. Residual (safe) payload now = 812 kg.

 

Increase MRO for the required 2 x double dinette seats with full 3 point belts @ 35kg each = 70kg. Remaining payload = 742kg.

 

Deduct 5 x passengers @ 75kg = 375kg. Remaining payload = 367kg.

 

This is standard with 150PS engine and manual box. Auto box, if wanted, further reduces payload, but not quoted. 175PS engine adds 50kg, so another 50kg from payload. No other option weights taken into account.

 

Is 360 odd kg sufficient for all your food, drinks, clothing, footwear, camping bits, wheelchairs, books, guides, computers, toys etc? We tend to add about 330 kg just for the two of us! The answer seems to me to be probably not!

 

However, even if you think you can scrape under the bar, with 6 people on board, and with only that 100kg to play with, I somehow doubt if it would be possible to stay within both axle load limits when so close to the MAM. So, it seem to me pretty much inevitable that you would end up with axle overload preventing you exploiting the MAM to the maximum. I think you need to quiz Auto-Trail very closely on the practicality of this van because I think, for your assumed needs, it is borderline unworkable for extended trips if you intend keeping it, as you were saying, for up to 10 years.

 

Put it another way, I wouldn't put Auto-Trail's asking price on it working! Bummer! :-(

[DJP]

What other van would suit their needs then?

[rolandrat]

When you read Brians analysis of the specifications it would seem as though the Chieftain isn't suitable as a six berth carrying motorhome which would have to include quite an amount of personal items of clothing etc. It no doubt would put into question all the other makes that are built on the Alko three axle chassis so we shouldn't just highlight Auto-trail if that is the case. It would be interesting if there are present owners who would be prepared to highlight their three axled motorhome weights on here, unladen and laden. In a situation like this wouldn't Sv Tech be able to offer a chassis upgrade, in particular the front axle?

[Mel B]

Regarding Johns Cross ... if you join a certain other 'fun' forum you get a 5% discount on accessories etc (not the actual van though!). We had an awning fitted to our Chausson by them shortly after we'd joined the 'fun' forum and a kind forumite reminded us to ask for the discount which we got without a quibble - it was a good price in the first place so this made it even better. :-D

[flicka]

Can we put put Brian’s figures into perspective

"We tend to add about 330 kg just for the two of us! "

 

Not disputing your figures Brian, but What do you carry, ????

We add between 200kg – 220kg for the 2 of us & that included my wife’s wheelchair, mobility scooter Person hoist & ramps.

 

"Increase MRO for the required 2 x double dinette seats with full 3 point belts @ 35kg each = 70kg."

Autotrail’s website value is 25kg each = 50kg, so 20kg saved.

 

"Deduct 5 x passengers @ 75kg = 375kg."

Autotrail add 300kg for the 5 passengers

 

& 75kg each for children ????? that assumes they are all almost 12stone EACH.

 

So Autotrail’s 60kg per passenger should be more than adequate, as an average for each of the 5.

So another 75kg saved

Michele should be able to do her own calculation here & adjust accordingly.

 

So from Brian’s calculated 367kg, we are now up to 462kg payload.

Not forgetting that even with the wheelchairs there will be a lot of space in the garage over that 3 tonne twin rear axle to counterbalance the front axle weight.

[Mel B]

flicka ... we only 'see' Brian's head on the avatar ... perhaps he's a 'roly-poly' below the neck!!! :D

[Brian Kirby]

flicka - 2012-02-10 10:13 PM

 

Can we put put Brian’s figures into perspective

"We tend to add about 330 kg just for the two of us! "

 

Not disputing your figures Brian, but What do you carry, ????

We add between 200kg – 220kg for the 2 of us & that included my wife’s wheelchair, mobility scooter Person hoist & ramps.

 

"Increase MRO for the required 2 x double dinette seats with full 3 point belts @ 35kg each = 70kg."

Autotrail’s website value is 25kg each = 50kg, so 20kg saved.

 

"Deduct 5 x passengers @ 75kg = 375kg."

Autotrail add 300kg for the 5 passengers

 

& 75kg each for children ????? that assumes they are all almost 12stone EACH.

 

So Autotrail’s 60kg per passenger should be more than adequate, as an average for each of the 5.

So another 75kg saved

Michele should be able to do her own calculation here & adjust accordingly.

 

So from Brian’s calculated 367kg, we are now up to 462kg payload.

Not forgetting that even with the wheelchairs there will be a lot of space in the garage over that 3 tonne twin rear axle to counterbalance the front axle weight.

John

 

Just quick answers.

 

What do we carry? Enough, broadly, for two of us to travel for 8 - 10 weeks. I'll happily send you the load list to check if you wish! Perhaps you don't go for so long? How much does a mobility scooter and batteries weigh?

 

The weight you quote for the dinettes with belts is from the website calculator. Download the AT options list and look at the weights quoted on that: 35kg per seat. Which is the safer assumption?

 

AT may quote 300kg for five passengers, allowing 60kg each, but Michele said she wants the van long term. Children grow and, sadly disabled children tend to become heavy because they can't exercise. So, I allowed a worst case. If I'm wrong there's spare payload. If you're wrong, which one gets left at home? :-)

 

Look at the axle totals, and the MAM, and tell me how you load that with six children plus enough clutter for more than a fortnight, without overloading either axle.

 

Look at the price of this van. If you were in Michele's position, and had her circumstances, would you gamble that much of your own cash on the payload being adequate for a couple of months away? I wouldn't: that is why I am saying what I am. It is, IMO, too close to call.

 

Of course she can do her own sums, that is why I put my calculations up so that she could see where I got my figures, anyone can alter them to suit their preferences - so long as it's their own money they're spending! :-) But, if were my money, I'd back my figures against those of the man who wants to relieve me of £70K! :-) The problem is not that it might work, or that you can argue my totals down a bit here and there, the problem for Michele is if it doesn't work. A high price to find out.

[DJP]

rolandrat - 2012-02-10 8:22 PM

 

When you read Brians analysis of the specifications it would seem as though the Chieftain isn't suitable as a six berth carrying motorhome which would have to include quite an amount of personal items of clothing etc. It no doubt would put into question all the other makes that are built on the Alko three axle chassis so we shouldn't just highlight Auto-trail if that is the case. It would be interesting if there are present owners who would be prepared to highlight their three axled motorhome weights on here, unladen and laden. In a situation like this wouldn't Sv Tech be able to offer a chassis upgrade, in particular the front axle?

 

Sorry I do not have an unladen weight, but my old Cheyenne 840D tag axle, fixed bed Auto Trail.

When weighed in during a road test with a Fiat engineer on board whilst testing my reverse gear judder (he thought the van may have been overweight) came in at 4677 kilo.

At the time the van was loaded with enough food and clothes for 2 adults for a month away. Plus the following

Fresh water 50%

Gas bottles 13kg x 2 full

Full diesel tank

4 x 110amp leisure batteries

Tow bar

80w solar panel

Camos dome

SKY box

1kw generator, 5ltr petrol

1 x 18.5" TV

1 x 15" TV

Groundsheet

2 x windbreaks (5mtr)

1 x 30 ltr gas urn

1 x 30 ltr electric urn

3 x 3 ltr teapots

5 mtr aluminium flagpole

steel flagpole base.

2 x 4 step leveling ramps

4 x 3' planks

small tool box and tools

2 x folding hi back chairs

laptop,

printer,

gas BBQ

30 x A4 direction signs laminated.

 

That's the bulk of it, but there was obviously lots more which still add up.

 

 

inverter

1kw Generator

[flicka]

Hi DJP

It would be interesting to see the individual Axle weights, if available.

 

 

[rolandrat]

Thanks for the info Dennis, it has removed a great deal of doubt, it just proves that the Chieftain is well on top of its job. There could be more carrying capacity available by using just two leisure batteries and removing the generator and towbar which together would be quite heavy.

[Brian Kirby]

rolandrat - 2012-02-11 11:55 AM

 

Thanks for the info Dennis, it has removed a great deal of doubt, it just proves that the Chieftain is well on top of its job. There could be more carrying capacity available by using just two leisure batteries and removing the generator and towbar which together would be quite heavy.

Up to a point, but just to be clear, I was/am not criticising the Chieftain as such, just posing questions as to whether it would be suitable for Michele's needs.

Dennis' van was a Cheyenne, island bed version, possibly 2008 vintage. Similar chassis to the Chieftain, but had a claimed "unladen mass" (not defined) of 3816kg, as against the Chieftain's 4,000kg MRO. I don't think Dennis was travelling mob-handed either, so the payload (plus a possible extra 184kg) available would have been far more practical for his circumstances. It's a case of horses for courses really, rather then there being anything wrong with the van itself. It's an impressive beast.

[DJP]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-11 1:19 PM

 

rolandrat - 2012-02-11 11:55 AM

 

Thanks for the info Dennis, it has removed a great deal of doubt, it just proves that the Chieftain is well on top of its job. There could be more carrying capacity available by using just two leisure batteries and removing the generator and towbar which together would be quite heavy.

Up to a point, but just to be clear, I was/am not criticising the Chieftain as such, just posing questions as to whether it would be suitable for Michele's needs.

Dennis' van was a Cheyenne, island bed version, possibly 2008 vintage. Similar chassis to the Chieftain, but had a claimed "unladen mass" (not defined) of 3816kg, as against the Chieftain's 4,000kg MRO. I don't think Dennis was travelling mob-handed either, so the payload (plus a possible extra 184kg) available would have been far more practical for his circumstances. It's a case of horses for courses really, rather then there being anything wrong with the van itself. It's an impressive beast.

Hi

You are correct a Nov 2008. The weight as I said ONLY included 1 person (Fiat engineer).

But taking into account Michele's 5/6 persons + buggies, food and clothes for the "masses" (Sorry Michele). The pay load is just about ample, but care will have to be taken especially if the 4 belted DD option is requested.

 

Sorry

 

I do not have individual axle weights. Fiat were just concerned about total weight. I was going to weigh the new Arapaho when loaded and ready to go but the weighbridge fees had gone from £5 to £28

. I know I am well under weight but don't wish to shed another 28 lbs (£28) to find out!

[carebear]

We have the dinette version of the chieftain G.

Ours is 2008 model.

We have 2 seat belts and 2 lapbelts on the dinette.

Previous to this layout we had a 2005 model, 2 long benches no rear seatbelts no good to us as 2 extra grandchildren arrived and needed to change direction on seatbelts.

Now we can fix in all three kids seats.

We purchased this van 2 years ago so the belts were fitted, cant say if the lap belts were extra`s or standard fittings from new.

Kitchen area is spacious but lounge area little restricted,narrow walkway there we have a spare table, so hubby will cut it in half DIY job, giving bit more room, so during summer when we got kids with us the kids can eat outside,or may not get 3 together, so table be suitable for two.

Impossible to get what you want in one van, have to compromise when childs safety becomes high priority.

We find this model suits us and when we seen this layout we had to buy it.

[flicka]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-11 12:46 AM

 

John

 

Just quick answers.

 

What do we carry? Enough, broadly, for two of us to travel for 8 - 10 weeks. I'll happily send you the load list to check if you wish! Perhaps you don't go for so long? How much does a mobility scooter and batteries weigh?

 

The weight you quote for the dinettes with belts is from the website calculator. Download the AT options list and look at the weights quoted on that: 35kg per seat. Which is the safer assumption?

 

AT may quote 300kg for five passengers, allowing 60kg each, but Michele said she wants the van long term. Children grow and, sadly disabled children tend to become heavy because they can't exercise. So, I allowed a worst case. If I'm wrong there's spare payload. If you're wrong, which one gets left at home? :-)

 

Look at the axle totals, and the MAM, and tell me how you load that with six children plus enough clutter for more than a fortnight, without overloading either axle.

 

Look at the price of this van. If you were in Michele's position, and had her circumstances, would you gamble that much of your own cash on the payload being adequate for a couple of months away? I wouldn't: that is why I am saying what I am. It is, IMO, too close to call.

 

Of course she can do her own sums, that is why I put my calculations up so that she could see where I got my figures, anyone can alter them to suit their preferences - so long as it's their own money they're spending! :-) But, if were my money, I'd back my figures against those of the man who wants to relieve me of £70K! :-) The problem is not that it might work, or that you can argue my totals down a bit here and there, the problem for Michele is if it doesn't work. A high price to find out.

 

Hi Brian

Sorry for the delay responding - checking our weights ;-)

I understood you were taking the devil's advocate's worst case scenario position, but I was attempting to show that things may not be quite so bad as indicated.

My wife's Mobility Scooter (now sold) was only 32kg. (Replaced with an Electric Power Chair @ 96kg) :-(

Her wheelchair is lightweight at only 12kg, Person Hoist 11kg & Ramps 11kg.

So within the 200 / 220kg they accounted for 66kg, hence my surprise at you figure.

Although I accept we would only be equipped for 2 weeks.& we only weigh 100kg between us. (So I am giving back 15kg against Autocruise's allowed weight for Driver.) :-D

 

I've checked the Autotrail website again & still only find the 2 x 25kg for the Double Dinette with 4 seatbelts.

 

Totally agree with your point regarding Disabled Children, I had not considered that.

 

Hopefully Michele & her hubby will be able to get some further clarity from Autotrail.regarding suitability at Excel later this week.

[Brian Kirby]

flicka - 2012-02-12 10:59 PM...............................Hi Brian

Sorry for the delay responding - checking our weights ;-)

I understood you were taking the devil's advocate's worst case scenario position, but I was attempting to show that things may not be quite so bad as indicated.

My wife's Mobility Scooter (now sold) was only 32kg. (Replaced with an Electric Power Chair @ 96kg) :-(

Her wheelchair is lightweight at only 12kg, Person Hoist 11kg & Ramps 11kg.

So within the 200 / 220kg they accounted for 66kg, hence my surprise at you figure.

Although I accept we would only be equipped for 2 weeks.& we only weigh 100kg between us. (So I am giving back 15kg against Autocruise's allowed weight for Driver.) :-D

 

I've checked the Autotrail website again & still only find the 2 x 25kg for the Double Dinette with 4 seatbelts.

 

Totally agree with your point regarding Disabled Children, I had not considered that.

 

Hopefully Michele & her hubby will be able to get some further clarity from Autotrail.regarding suitability at Excel later this week.

Nooo, don't apologise, John, none necessary.

You can get the figure for the weight of the belted seats that I used, if you do the the AT website, open "downloads" and look for the 2012 optional extras list. Why the difference? Who knows, but it doesn't inspire confidence in their figures. :-(

We weigh a bit more than you two together @ 145kg. I suspect the rest is largely due to going for longer, as we need spare everything so that we can wash as we go, and carry a wider range if clothing to cope with quite big changes in climate, altitude, and season, from here to southern Europe and from spring, to summer, to autumn. However, even so, the van has bags spare, so I don't set out to stay lightweight. Think stainless steel pots and pans etc.