Hospital treatment in Europe

[Guest JudgeMental]

I have a yearly insurance policy that covers us worldwide. How useful this would be in the event of a claim is debatable, primarily because of the conditions in the contract can be quite tricky..... You need to contact insurer with any change of medication, GP/hospital visit etc....however minor! Mine have asked me for another £50 because I was taken of one blood pressure tablet, and it was replaced by another weaker tablet:-S

 

Anyway purpose of thread below:

 

Has anyone watched the TV program "Benidorm ER". Well I watched one this week and was surprised to see that the British holidaymakers presented were having all sorts of problems. one was presented with am estimated bill for operation and hospital stay of £11,000 (bad back needing op) Insurance company refused to pay as he had not disclosed he had a scan of his back..They then agreed to pay 20% I think bringing the bill down to £8000

 

while watching I was wondering why they did not use a E111 card? was this because they had gone to a private hospital? was it because the ambulances had taken them to the private hospital?

 

So would not the E111 card or passport as E111 not entirely necessary, have initiated them to free medical treatment within an EU country such as Spain?

 

these threads helpful, and its like I suspected....

 

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g187525-i191-k1237715-Nearest_hospital_in_Benidorm-Benidorm_Costa_Blanca_Alicante_Province_Valencian_Country.html

 

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g187525-i191-k4941513-E111_hospital-Benidorm_Costa_Blanca_Alicante_Province_Valencian_Country.html

[rupert123]

JudgeMental - 2012-02-11 11:35 AM

 

I have a yearly insurance policy that covers us worldwide. How useful this would be in the event of a claim is debatable, primarily because of the conditions in the contract can be quite tricky..... You need to contact insurer with any change of medication, GP/hospital visit etc....however minor! Mine have asked me for another £50 because I was taken of one blood presure tablet, and it was replaced by another:-S

 

Anyway purpose of thread below:

 

Has anyone watched the TV program "Benidorm ER". Well I watched one this week and was surprised to see that the British holidaymakers presented were having all sorts of problems. one was presented with am estimated bill for operation and hospital stay of £11,000 (bad back needing op) Insurance company refused to pay as he had not disclosed he had a scan of his back..They then agreed to pay 20% I think bringing the bill down to £8000

 

while watching I was wondering why they did not use a E111 card? was this because they had gone to a private hospital? was it because the amulances had taken to the private hospital?

 

So would not the E111 card or passport as E111 not entirely necessary, have initiated them to free medical treatment within an EU country such as Spain?

 

I managed to break my left femur about 12 years ago skiing in Chamonix. I neither knew or cared at the time to which hospital i was taken but it can matter. After the operation and when I was on the way to recovery the hospital asked me about insurance. At the time i had three, what was then the E111, one i bought and one called Carte Neige which is very cheap and worth having in France anyway. The hospital took the E111 but because I was in for three weeks this was topped up by my own insurance, at the time their was a limit on the amount of days an E111 covered. The ambalance crew took the carte Neige and the flight home and private ambalance was paid by my own insurance. It can get complicated and as far as I know nobody checked on my medical background but I later found out that E111 only covered state run hospitals and my own cover clearly stated permission had to be obtained before treatment in private hospitals. I was in no postion to make sure it was a state hospital, when you are injured or ill do you bother to check or care, since then I have always had as much insurance at a reasonable price as I can. Always get Carte neige, it is only about 45 euros a year when bought in a ski resort and you get almost this amount off your season ski pass for having it. Always buy a decent policy at home and have an EHIC card, what more can you do. As you get older it becomes harder to keep up with medical problems and keep insurance informed but in practice most insurance companies are reasonable and most times it is sorted, in my case sorted well.

[Guest pelmetman]

We saw that program and were surprised at the fees charged, and assume they were in a private hospital 8-)..................I'm wondering if the prog was sponsored by the insurance industry ;-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

pelmetman - 2012-02-11 12:32 PM

 

We saw that program and were surprised at the fees charged, and assume they were in a private hospital 8-)..................I'm wondering if the prog was sponsored by the insurance industry ;-)

 

the program did not make these issues of private/state hospitals clear so a bit convenient for hospital featured IMO :-S

 

The national hospital is 3 miles south in Villa Josa

 

http://www.benidorm-spotlight.com/news/2009/first_aid_150109.htm

 

But E111 card still seems to only covers for emergency treatment...

 

getting back to the program..an elderly lady featured, had injured her wrist and for this she was given an MRI scan! These are very expensive probably £500 extra on bill? especially when a much cheaper x ray would be the norm here.Surprise surprise It was only a sprain..

 

So yes they are definitely at it to screw as much out of you as possible IMO *-)

 

best advice, be prepared and research your destination, and make sure insurance cast iron

[BGD]

Eddie - the old E111 has been superceded by the "EHIC" card. Don't take an old E111 form abroad with you, as it won't be accepted anywhere any more. It's the EHIC card (and your passport) that people must have/show in order to get any "free" medical treatment abroad.

 

This EHIC card is an EU-wide reciprocal scheme where you can get emergency treatment as a guest in other EU countries, and that countries NHS then back-charges your home countries NHS for the cost of that treatment.

 

The Spanish NHS system really is first class. Last stats I saw suggested that when judged by a whole range of factors it was 4th best in the world. (In that same survey the UK NHS was somewhere around 17th from memory)

Here there are virtually no waiting lists for anything, and top quality medical care and state of the art facilities....but unless you are very lucky, or pay for a translator, all treatment is in Spanish of course, because that's the language of our country here.

 

 

 

 

But people need to be clear:- what that UK EHIC entitles you to, "free" (free in the sense that you don't pay at that point, the money comes from your NI and tax contributions in the UK), is ONLY emergency treatment here. Anything other than or beyond immediate emergency treatment is excluded.

 

 

 

 

With reference to the "Benidorm ER" series: the Clinica Benidorm hospital, although a private business, does a lot of Spanish NHS work as well, and their Accident and Emergency Department is contracted by the Spanish NHS.

Thus, to anyone from the UK going there as an emergency patient, all you need to show is your EHIC card ( which shows them that they'll get the money back for the cost of treating you from the UK NHS, via the Spanish NHS in due course), and you'll get free EMERGENCY treatment.

 

From memory, I think you may have to pay a proportion of the costs of tablets/drugs, and possibly also for bandages and other "consumables"; it is only the actual emergency medical treatment itself that you don't pay for.

 

But with your EHIC card you don't get anything else beyond this immediate emergency treatment. At least, nothing else for "free".

After they've patched you up, it's up to you (or any private insurer you've got cover with) to arrange and pay for follow up, or more in-depth treatment, and/or medical repatriation.

 

I saw somewhere recently an estimate suggesting that a stretcher-case medical repatriation to a UK hospital from a Spanish one would cost you in the region of £10,000...including flight, ambulances either end, travelling nurses, etc.

If you didn't opt for repatriation and then an elective operation in the UK on the UK NHS, but instead stayed in a Spanish hospital and had that operation here, then you would be required to pay personally, at market rates, for every single aspect of that ongoing treatment as a private patient: hire of operating theatre, surgeons fees, nurses fees, anaesthetists fees, all drugs, all bandages, and also for the charge-per-night of your stay in that hospital ( which on its own can be maybe 150 euros per night, just in a general ward).

 

Also, In Spain, hospital nurses ONLY do medical care. They are not paid for, and they do not do "hotel services".

Thus they do not bring round meals/drinks etc.

Usually relatives of the patient take turns at staying with them (there's usually a put-you-up bed in the patients room). If you don't have a relative/friend who can bring in food for you/look after you, then you'd also need to buy-in such a carer by the hour...not cheap.

 

 

Thus if coming to Spain, or indeed any other country which takes part in the reciprocal EHIC scheme, please DO NOT presume that you'll get all and any medical treatment for free there. You absolutely will not.

 

That's why people need to consider what to do about the financial risk they are taking when travelling abroad: either take out private insurance cover for everything you think you want which is NOT included in the EHIC basic scheme; or "self-insure" by simply accepting that if you do have to have additional treatment/operation/repatriation, that you'll have to pay those full, potentially massive, costs yourself.

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Thanks BGD, very clear and concise info. Yes my mistake re cards, they are now EHIC not E111. Our travel folder (including cards) is in the safe in van, so all done from memory..... :D

[hallii]

I was told (but I don't know from personal experience) that when you call an ambulance in Spain they are inclined to take you to private clinic. The possibilty of "commission" being paid for taking you to a private clinic is a factor.

 

I was adivised to produce the EHIC and deny any other insurance cover, the ambulance will then take you to a public clinic.

 

It might be a bit difficult if you are unconscious or in bad pain of course.

 

My insurance insists that I go to a public clinic first, if there is a problem with finding the right treatment then I can go elsewhere.

 

As regards repatriation, good old ADAC has it's own air ambulance and ambulances, they will get me back free of charge and transport my vehicle back home as well. It's all in with the breakdown cover.

 

 

H

[Brian Kirby]

Another point to remember with these programmes is that some of the patients may well be Spanish residents, and as such, will not be entitled to cover under the EHIC. If you leave the UK for more than, I think 6 months, you are deemed to have emigrated, and the NHS is no longer interested. There seem to be quite a few UK ex-pats who cloak their main place of residence in mist to evade this point but, once laid flat and wanting to be shipped to UK, I suspect a few get rumbled with disastrous financial consequences for them! Didn't see the programme, so am talking through hat :-), but wonder if people with unexpectedly large bills may have failed to declare rather more than just a "forgotten" scan!

[johnsue]

Unfortunately 2 yrs ago we 'visited' the hospital nr Malaga, the treatment we received was excellent.

John had been feeling unwell since Christmas & had had different anti biotics from the doc. they thought that our planned trip to Spain ( 6-8 wks - early retirement & 1st trip abroad in the motor home ) would probably do him good. We set off 28th Feb armed with yet more tablets but by the end of March it was obvious that all was not well so we took ourselves to the hospital. They did blood tests & scans & at the end of the day gave us the scans & advised us to go home asap. Obviously we did, arrived home 8th April & 24th May John had op. to remove cancerous tumor from behind his left eye. We only produced our EHIC card at the Hospital & the treatment was free all we had to pay for was a prescription at the Pharmacy which the Hospital gave us.

John is on the mend now thank goodness & we managed 2 x 6wks in Spain / France last yr & are looking forward to another 6-8 wks again in April. We are following the ' Long Road South' thread.....can't wait

[Cattwg]

Whilst in Spain last autumn one of our fellow Brit campers swallowed a mouthful of ‘toilet blue’ (it was in a Coke bottle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Anyway one of the other Brit campers took her, by car to the local hospital in Cartagena. She was there for about 15 - 16 hours and was released once the (“very nice”) doctor was satisfied that she would be OK.

She returned to the hospital the following day for final blood tests and again the doctor was satisfied.

The was no question of insurance she simply showed her ‘E111’ card.

 

Cattwg :-D

[Barryd999]

I am a bit confused now. Lets say I crash my scooter in France and break a leg. The emergancy treatment is covered by my EHIC card I presume. If they then say I have to stay in hospital for a week are we saying that wouldnt be covered by the EHIC?

[Guest JudgeMental]

Barryd999 - 2012-02-11 7:47 PM

 

I am a bit confused now. Lets say I crash my scooter in France and break a leg. The emergancy treatment is covered by my EHIC card I presume. If they then say I have to stay in hospital for a week are we saying that wouldnt be covered by the EHIC?

 

I would think in that senario you would be OK?

 

as for getting you and the van back I am unsure....then you would need the travel insurance I would think...

[Barryd999]

Thanks Judge

 

I must admit its not something I tend to think or worry about. Our travel insurance through Lloyds only lasts 31 days so after that we are on our own. We do tend to do some risky stuff as well! It would be useful to know exactly whats covered and what isnt.

[Cliffy]

 

We went on an activity holiday in mainland Greece last year, on the first day I broke my nose, the hotel provided a taxi and a translator and took me and OH to the local clinic who stitched up the cut on my nose and sent us on to a local hospital for an xrays, to confirm it was broken, which I knew already as a dentist holiday maker re-aligned it from around 30 degrees to straight whilst sat by the pool.

 

We were then sent with xrays in hand to the city hospital in Thesaloniki 80 miles away to be seen by an ENT specialist as they expected me to be kept in overnight. The specialist held the xray films up to the light and said "nothing we can do, go back to your hotel".

 

On the way back, in the middle of the night, to the hotel we stopped at a pharmacy phoned the pharmasist who came from home dressed in PJs and dispenced the medication

 

I was a no stage asked for my EHIC card or passport, they did not even ask my name or make any notes. The Greek hospital staff were great but the hospitals were run down the equpment was something like 1950s vintage and everywhere was filthy. The hotel covered the cost of the taxi, 200 miles in five hours, the translator and for the 7 day course of anti-biotics.

 

I think I could have asked to be taken to a private hospital but I just put myself in the hotels hands and it worked out well.

 

The city hospital was so bad that if I did have to stay in overnight I would have asked to be taken to a private hospital as I did have good cover. (I think/hope)

 

I have a lot of sympathy for the lovely Greek people they have been put in a terrible situation by their government. We talked to a nurse who said she had to wait 18 months to get paid for work she had done in A&E department as they could not afford tp pay her staight away.

 

Maybe if they ripped off holiday makers/insurance companies/NHS, as they appear to do in Spain they may not be in the situation they are in.

 

If I needed urgent treatment any where in Europe I would give the local national services a chance before going private and making a claim, it is all part of the travel experience.

 

 

[sshortcircuit]

My eldest brother, who lives in Spain, advises me to ensure I carry the EHIC card at all times as it makes things so much easier if I have an accident.

 

He is "residentia" or whatever, and has had hospital treatment which he rates second to none. After being fobbed off for years in the UK he received virtually instant treatment for a hip replacement which at that time he did contribute to. I also believe he still has insurance cover.

 

Back to Benidorm in three weeks and this programme has given me so much reassurance that if needed there is excellent hospital facilities, hopefully not needed.

[rupert123]

Barryd999 - 2012-02-11 7:47 PM

 

I am a bit confused now. Lets say I crash my scooter in France and break a leg. The emergancy treatment is covered by my EHIC card I presume. If they then say I have to stay in hospital for a week are we saying that wouldnt be covered by the EHIC?

 

Barry suggest you go back and read my post in this thread, break my leg badly is exactly what I did. This is not secondhand information or guesswork, it is exactly what happened. Things may have changed a bit but not to much, the only thing I paid for was a new set of crutches, was not allowed to take hospital ones out of the hospital.

[Brian Kirby]

There are times when I truly, deeply, despair of my fellow countrymen! Reading this string has been one of them. The level of misunderstanding and ignorance over what an EHIC is, how it works, and what is covered and not covered in various countries simply beggars belief!

 

Please just follow this link, to Don Madge's heroic post on the subject on this very site, and then ask yourselves why I feel so exasperated! http://tinyurl.com/79ghpa8

 

As you will see, the rules vary country by country. Please also bear in mind that Don is Don, he is neither the British Government nor an NHS spokesman, so it is his best attempt at distilling the substance from the dross. DO NOT PLACE INFINITE FAITH IN IT BECAUSE IT IS ON THE INTERNET! Read it, then check it at source for updates. Then check the terms and conditions of your health insurances, and then go your merry ways in the full understanding of what cover you have under your EHIC, and what under your insurance.

 

Bear in mind that if an insurer regards what you were doing at the time of an accident to have been a dangerous sport or practice, and you did not tell them you would be doing that, they may refuse to pay out or, having paid out, may seek to recover the costs from you. Bear in mind also that the cost of medical treatment abroad, especially if it involves hospital treatment, and you happen to be taken to a private hospital, and you need repatriation via air ambulance under medical supervision, or even if you die and your body has to be repatriated, can run into tens of thousands of pounds, and you, and you alone are responsible for those costs and you will be ruthlessly pursued for them, in some cases even beyond the grave! This really is a classic case of a risk with a low likelihood of occurrence, but with potentially catastrophic consequences if it does occur. It is exactly what insurance is for.

 

With my apologies to Barry, at whom I am truly not having a "pop", this snip exemplifies the attitude that frightens me: "Our travel insurance through Bloggs only lasts 31 days so after that we are on our own. We do tend to do some risky stuff as well! It would be useful to know exactly whats covered and what isnt." Strewth! It is like the man who fell off the roof of the Empire State Building, and was heard saying "so far so good" as he plummeted down. If Barry is a millionaire, please forgive my levity, you can clearly afford whatever. But if Barry isn't, and the worst happens, his present wealth, possibly his home, and the inheritances of any kids he may have will be in serious jeopardy!

 

Why anyone should assume that what is provided in one country will be equally applicable to other countries I totally fail to understand, except that some on here seem to believe there is a country across the Channel called Europe. Well, folks, there ain't! There are a bunch of countries, and they all have different languages, laws, health provision, and God knows what else. Beyond that, how can anyone asking questions on a forum of motorhomers, on a subject of this complexity, allow themselves to be reassured by answers given by a bunch of total strangers, whose credentials and competencies are totally unknown?

 

My mind is boggled beyond endurance. Apologies to all for being so abrasive but, IMO, a few of you really do need to see a phrenologist, and I just can't think of a less pointed way of saying so! :-D

[Guest JudgeMental]

Calm down dear boy..You will do yourself a mischief!:-D

 

After watching the ER program and seeing a British couple losing their life savings because the ended up in a private hospital, and others being charged for totally unnecessary IMR scans, was why i thought this needed discussing.

 

It is a complicated matter......

 

But I am sure many travel in europe with just the card and no insurance...this is a bit short sighted I believe

[rupert123]

Brian I agree with everything you have said and I to was surprised at Barrys statement which borders on pure stupidity. However I to have read Don Madges post, some time ago, and would point out that all countries within the EU provide pretty much the same cover but apply it in differant ways. I have had a lot of experience in France of dealing with their system, when I ran ski holidays I visited docters and hospitals a few times each season. What they are contracted to do and what they do vary a bit. All docters I saw charged a fixed rate for a consultation and would give you an invoice. Hospital out patients acted in differant ways, one season I visited out patients five times with clients, on no occasion were any of them asked to pay. One docter told me it was to much hassel to do the paper work so they did not bother for minor injuries. I realise this may not always happen but just pointing out that no matter what they should do it does not always work. I found the problems involved trying to claim money back in another langauge meant no one ever bothered, just collected receipts and claimed back from insurance. This is the reason I have always used a 'belt and braces' approach, you can never have to much insurance, in the UK it is pretty inexpensive when compared to the amount you will spend on holiday so why would anyone not bother. Even if someone lives in a country I wonder how much they know, after all I have not got a clue how my GP or local hospital react when approached by someone from outside the UK. As I pointed out in my earlier post, when I had my accident I simply gave the hospital everything and they sorted it out. All I know is that it did not cost me a penny but I did get an invoice which detailed how the bills were met, their were also two helicopter flights which again were paid by Carte Neige.

[Minstrel]

A friend of mine with early onset Alzheimers was taken to Tenerife by her husband. on arriving at the apartment she fell, breaking her hip.  Then her idiot husband realised that he hadn't taken out holiday insurance so she waited (in the public hospital) for one week before having her hip replacement surgery.  She was put in nappies and very little care was given.  I understand that families are expected to feed, wash and otherwise look after patients.  Meanwhile she had run out of her Arisept tablets and nobody would prescribe them for her.

 

On the plus side, she had an Exeter hip put in - that's the one that's plastic on metal - but her recovery is very slow.

 

I posted this as a warning to all.  Medical insurance is vital.

[BGD]

JudgeMental - 2012-02-12 2:25 PM

 

Calm down dear boy..You will do yourself a mischief!:-D

 

After watching the ER program and seeing a British couple losing their life savings because the ended up in a private hospital, and others being charged for totally unnecessary IMR scans, was why i thought this needed discussing.

 

It is a complicated matter......

 

But I am sure many travel in europe with just the card and no insurance...this is a bit short sighted I believe

 

 

 

 

Eddy - just a thought, but Magnetic Resonance Imaging scanning is FAR better and far safer too, than the old X-ray systems, and provide surgeons/doctors with much more useful and accurate information upon which to treat the patient.

 

As I understand it, this is the reason why they use them in modern, well-equipped hospitals in Spain (and elsewhere I guess).

Just a personal view but I don't think such scans are " totally un-necessary" at all. I also don' think the clinical staff are seeking to "rip off" patients at all - they don't even know how or if the patient is covered by NHS/insurance.

I think they simply try to do their best to diagnose and treat accurately, with the best equipment they have at their disposal.

[maggyd]

I was bitten on the arm about three years ago in Holland by a very large black dog!! he was after my small dog which I had picked up out of the way :-S so he decided my upper arm was just as good.

John drove to the nearest hospital (thank goodness for T.T) we would never have found it, anyway I received treatment and was asked for my insurence card, I gave them my EHIC card which was accepted and nothing more was needed, I was given a prescription for antibiotics which we collected from a 24hr pharmacy, I paid 21Euro for that (which the dog owner re-embursed me) but for a few weeks I had to go to G.Ps all allong the Mosel to have my dressings changed and the wound inspected, I noticed in the waiting rooms that the other patients had a card and a 10euro note so I did the same, only once was I charged 20Euro and the card not accepted I presumed it was a private only surgery, for that the dressing was changed and a antiseptic cream applied.

 

However I would never go abroad and depend only on the EHIC card we always take out travel insurence with extra payment of usually about £18 for pre-existing conditions which for peace of mind it is worth having :-S how many times have we heard of people having heart attacks or strokes while abroad and not having enough insurence to cover the cost.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Sorry BGD but completely OTT IMO. What kind of doctor cant tell the difference between a sprain and a break...In this instance trying to get the poor old dear into the MRI machine was totally inappropriate when a cheap xray would do the job

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-12 1:14 PM

 

Please just follow this link, to Don Madge's heroic post on the subject on this very site, and then ask yourselves why I feel so exasperated! http://tinyurl.com/79ghpa8

 

 

.....given that Don's original useful summary is around 5 years old, and that there is now comprehensive information available on the web, it may be better to reference this overview page:

 

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/EHIC/Pages/Introduction.aspx

 

which appears to adequately cover the current state of play, and also contains further links, including to a country-by-country guide on entitlement, process, etc.

[michele]

WE use all Clear travel . Alone for fred as she can not join us on the family group she is £400 .just for a three week jaunt to the SOF . What I never ever understand is if in her case she is doing better although how long this lasts is a mystery to even the best at Great Ormond Street. Why cant her insurance go down ? or why can't the lenght of time out of the country go up.

 

If the child has retractable epilepsy and you answer the questions honestly as in how many fits a day 22. and they can insure for three weeks what difference 4 weeks ?.

 

Insurance companys always insure theirselves against loss whats the problem.

especially when we have never claimed so far fingers crossedx