Another side to scrounging.

[francisgraham]

pelmetman - 2012-02-18 5:40 PMSeem's to me Francis, people like you................... are are still running the Asylum (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol)Gaaaaawd elp'us :D

I did ask you to tell us how our democracy isn't working. I knew in advance that I wouldn't get an intelligent and sensible response and all I can say is that I'm glad that you aren't running anything that impacts on me.

[Guest pelmetman]

francisgraham - 2012-02-18 5:44 PM

pelmetman - 2012-02-18 5:40 PMSeem's to me Francis, people like you................... are are still running the Asylum (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol)Gaaaaawd elp'us :D

I did ask you to tell us how our democracy isn't working. I knew in advance that I wouldn't get an intelligent and sensible response and all I can say is that I'm glad that you aren't running anything that impacts on me.

You mean that you actually believe if we vote things will change 8-).............I reckon all that education has addled your brains Francis ;-)

[francisgraham]

pelmetman - 2012-02-18 5:51 PM You mean that you actually believe if we vote things will change 8-).............I reckon all that education has addled your brains Francis ;-)

You really are inadequate when it comes to rational thought. Here's one example: If we hadn't voted out Labour in 1979, many things wouldn't have changed.

Instead, those of us who voted elected Margaret Thatcher and, whatever your views on her, she brought in massive changes that would not have happened if Labour had remained in power.

We may well still have enormous loss-making nationalised industries and the Falkland Islands would now be Argentinian.

Most educated people do know that Labour and Tory governments have very different policies, policies which impact on the lives of us and on other countries.

But heh! Why bother voting? Let's all just sit at home and give up. Let's just let the ones in power stay there for ever!

And please, I don't wish to divert onto a 'for or against Maggie' argument. My point is that she made some enormous changes, as did many other PMs and governments, changes that wouldn't have been made if it wasn't for those of us who do see the point of voting in a democracy.

The only people who spout this nonsense about them all being the same, are the ones who know nothing of recent history or are too thick to understand what has happened over the last few decades.

[Guest pelmetman]

francisgraham - 2012-02-18 6:11 PM

pelmetman - 2012-02-18 5:51 PM You mean that you actually believe if we vote things will change 8-).............I reckon all that education has addled your brains Francis ;-)

You really are inadequate when it comes to rational thought. Here's one example: If we hadn't voted out Labour in 1979, many things wouldn't have changed.

That's the problem Francis ;-).............and why consecutive governments waste Billions *-)...................not that they're bothered its not their money they are wasting is it?.................besides if our MP's are a bit short.............just put it on expenses :DPS never voted Labour in my life ;-)...................I leave that to the lemmings :D

[Brian Kirby]

francisgraham - 2012-02-18 5:29 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-18 5:09 PM So the UK is "just perfick", then Francis? Can't be improved? :-)

I don't believe I said anything about it being perfect and incapable of improvement. Of course things can be improved but running a country isn't like running a small business, as you out of all this lot will be aware.

Indeed! Your reply did seem rather excessively satisfied, though! :-)

 

Politicians are subject to external forces over which they have no control and which often ties their hands to some extent, but I just get sick to the back teeth with the constant whining and silly generalisations. Every politician is bent, every politician fiddled his expenses, they're only in it for the money blah, blah and blah!

Not my complaint. I just feel they are far too tribal, too much in hock to the parties. MPs are supposed to be independent minded representatives of their constituents. Whereas many - possibly a majority - are, too many seem to be "lobby fodder". I'd love to see the power of the whips reined in.

 

Most of them could be a lot richer by concentrating on their main professions than by being an MP on the derisory salary that they're paid.

I'd agree with many, Francis, but most? :-) The salary is not too bad, and the pension rights extremely good by today's standards, so I wouldn't agree with derisory.

 

Dennis Skinner, William Hague, just to name one on each side. Both men who are committed politicians because they want to change things and there are hundreds more people like them in government, local and national, and I know some of them.

Me too, and I agree with all of that, without reservation.

 

Yes, things can be improved, they always can but, just for once, I wish that people would recognise the massive improvements in our lives that have already taken place.

That may be the problem. It is difficult to identify the deficiencies without criticising the status quo, because it only through criticism that the areas to improve can be identified. So yes, of course there have been tremendous improvements in our lives, and some of those stem from the actions of our politicians. But equally, it must be acknowledged that other improvements come from science and technology, and others again from other politicians in other countries. Equally, opportunities have been missed, and mistakes made. So, whereas the picture is not of unremitting doom and gloom, neither is it exclusively of the sunlit uplands. Perfection is unattainable (except in a few religions :-)), but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Our biggest problem is defining it - which seems to take us back to politics. Oh dear! :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-18 6:47 PM

, neither is it exclusively of the sunlit uplands. Perfection is unattainable (except in a few religions :-)), but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Our biggest problem is defining it - which seems to take us back to politics. Oh dear! :-D

 

Or a referendum :-D

[nightrider]

francisgraham - 2012-02-18 5:35 PM

knight of the road - 2012-02-18 5:06 PMWhat about Australia as a place to live? their border control people seem to be on the ball regarding drug dealers, people trying to hide their criminal records etc, illegal immigrants.

It is a good place to live but they still have many immigrants despite being tough on illegal ones.

I have to say though, that what Britain needs is more people like you. Whilst I deplore some of your views on the charities and Third World aid etc. I do have a huge admiration for a man who continues to work hard well past retirement.  And here you are with cancer and still looking forward to getting on with your gardens when Spring comes.

Well done, and I really do wish that your work ethic was shared by others. Britain would be a better and wealthier place for everyone if they had your positive attitude.

francis,I admit that I have rattled your cage a few times regarding my stance on overseas aid but I am not the ogre I might appear to be, I would never neglect a starving person and have always fought the corner of the downtrodden.I am a believer in charity begins at home and if there is money left in the kitty then distribute it to the needy overseas, I think you will agree that there is a lot of corruption in third world countries and that is the crux of the matter for me, there is absolutely no reason why people should go hungry when mother nature is so bountiful in what she gives up, something is going drastically wrong somewhere (?)

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-18 6:47 PM

 

 

Dennis Skinner, William Hague, just to name one on each side. Both men who are committed politicians because they want to change things and there are hundreds more people like them in government, local and national, and I know some of them.

Me too, and I agree with all of that, without reservation.

 

 

As I understand it 389 MP's were caught with their fingers in the til...........which is more than half 8-)

 

If the same proportion of the UK (62,218,761) population is as corrupt we'd better build a lot more prisons (lol) (lol) (lol)

[francisgraham]

pelmetman - 2012-02-19 8:59 AM

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-18 6:47 PM

Dennis Skinner, William Hague, just to name one on each side. Both men who are committed politicians because they want to change things and there are hundreds more people like them in government, local and national, and I know some of them.

Me too, and I agree with all of that, without reservation.

As I understand it 389 MP's were caught with their fingers in the til...........which is more than half 8-)If the same proportion of the UK (62,218,761) population is as corrupt we'd better build a lot more prisons (lol) (lol) (lol)

I don't suppose that you own a dictionary but perhaps if you search online you may be able to understand the meaning of the word 'corrupt'.

And, as I would expect, your opinion is that of the Sun-reading lynch mob which doesn't really understand what happened and bases its views on a few sound bites.

This is the true situation, confirmed to be by an acquaintance who is an ex-MP and a more honourable woman you couldn't hope to find:

For decades Parliament had a culture of generous expenses, encouraged by civil servants in charge of the system. When the lady in question was elected (she served two terms) it was made quite clear to her that generous expenses where part of the package and the term used was: "We know that the pay is low but the expenses are terrific so feel free to claim for whatever the rules allow."

And before you claim that the pay wasn't low, remember that we're talking about a people from top jobs, many of whom lose a lot of money by becoming an MP.

So yes, many MPs took advantage of a generous system but the number who actually committed fraud can be counted on the figures of two hands, and that's from both houses of parliament, a total of well over 1400 people.

Those who did defraud their expenses have been, and will be, prosecuted, but the remaining 1400 and odd are guilty of no more than taking advantage of the system and of that 1400 people, less than 400 were actually considered to have abused it and that's abused it, not defrauded or stolen from it.

As an example, I am a member of a trekking and climbing forum. About three or four years ago Nationwide announced a new debit card offering cost-free foreign transactions, the proviso being that you opened a current account and used it. You were supposed to pay at least £750 a month into the account and it was quite clear that Nationwide offered this perk to people and that it expected them to switch their current account.

So what happened? Many people opened an account and each month transferred in £750 and immediately transferred it out. They could then use their debit card abroad but that's all they did. Eventually, Nationwide got sick of the rampant abuse and stopped the free foreign transactions and people such as me, who use the account properly as our main account lost a valuable perk.

Now I tell you this because these same people on my other forum, the ones who took advantage of the system, were the first to condemn MPs for exactly the same behaviour, which was taking full advantage of something that's available to them.

The Daily Telegraph did a great service in the parliamentary expenses debacle but, on the other hand, it has actually done a great deal of harm because many people who are unable to understand the full background and  who never read a decent newspaper are now just like any other lynch mob in that: All MPs are corrupt, all are on the take, they only go into parliament to line their own pockets blah, blah and blah!

A large majority of MPs suffer financial loss when they enter parliament but they do it because they love politics and genuinely want to change things. My acquittance spent years and years in local government for no salary before standing for parliament but she was committed to her cause, which isn't mine as it happens as she was a Labour MP, but she believed passionately in her socialism.

Finally, you claim that, if the country was like Parliament, half of us would be corrupt. From what I have read of the typical motorhomer, who seems obsessed with money, either not spending it or somehow saving it, I can assure you that if Parliament had been staffed by the members of the average motorhoming forum, the figures for both excessive claiming and outright fiddling would be considerably higher.

If you want to see how honest the average UK citizen is, see what happens when a bank cash machine starts paying out £20 notes instead of tenners. The queue stretches round the block! 

So first, look up "corrupt" and secondly, ask yourself how you would have behaved if you'd been told that the expenses were very generous and that you should use them as much as necessary.

[Guest pelmetman]

Have you ever heard of the expression "Lead by example"? Francis................. ;-)

 

I don't doubt what you say is correct that most MP's just followed the examples of those before them........actively encouraged by the civil servants *-)

 

Which is probably why our politicians and civil servants see no problem with just helping them selves out of the public purse when they feel like it *-)..................and then they wonder why people like me cant be bothered to fund their excess anymore (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

You'd make a good MP Francis............I reckon you would fit right in :D

 

PS got to do some gardening today..........I think I'll turn my compost heaps..........as at least thats one pile of c**p that will do me some good once its turned over..........unlike our political parties (lol)

[francisgraham]

pelmetman - 2012-02-19 10:36 AM  .........and then they wonder why people like me cant be bothered to fund their excess anymore (lol) (lol) (lol)You'd make a good MP Francis............I reckon you would fit right in :DPS got to do some gardening today..........I think I'll turn my compost heaps..........as at least thats one pile of c**p that will do me some good once its turned over..........unlike our political parties (lol)

Once again you peddle the myth about why you refuse to contribute to the national exchequer by trying to convince us that it's some kind of protest against greed and corruption in government.

The reason you don't pay tax is because you don't earn any money. The reason you don't earn any money is because your pelmet business went downhill. If it was successful, why did you go to all the trouble of setting up another firm making pouffes, which also appears to have gone downhill?

And of course you actually boast about not being well educated, as though it's a virtue but now, having failed in business, you find yourself unemployable by anyone else.

Now there's nothing wrong in failing in business, many good people try and often, through no fault of their own, they don't succeed but unlike you, they do not then develop an obsession with anyone who is successful or who earns more then they do. They do not take every opportunity to make snide remarks about them, from the executives of the CC, to the captain of the cruise liner who was 'probably dining with the money muppets' before his crash and, most offensive of all to many members of this forum, your claim that those of us who buy new motorhomes only do it to impress the neighbours. Well, I'm sorry that you have to drive a 25 year old 'van that's one MOT away from the scrapyard, but that isn't my problem.

Your entire attitude shows a jealousy and resentment of anyone who is educated and successful, epitomised by your attitude to our law makers who are all 'corrupt' or 'bleeding the nation dry'.

And yet you still try to convince us all that your refusal to pay income tax is some kind of lifestyle choice and then have the nerve to rail against dishonesty in parliament! 

[Robinhood]

pelmetman - 2012-02-19 10:36 AM

 

Have you ever heard of the expression "Lead by example"? Francis................. ;-)

 

I don't doubt what you say is correct that most MP's just followed the examples of those before them........actively encouraged by the civil servants *-)

 

Which is probably why our politicians and civil servants see no problem with just helping them selves out of the public purse when they feel like it *-)..................and then they wonder why people like me cant be bothered to fund their excess anymore (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

You'd make a good MP Francis............I reckon you would fit right in :D

 

PS got to do some gardening today..........I think I'll turn my compost heaps..........as at least thats one pile of c**p that will do me some good once its turned over..........unlike our political parties (lol)

 

 

......of course, when "they" choose to "push the boundaries" a bit, it's easily regarded as "corrupt practice".

 

.....if "we" choose to "bend the rules" a bit, then it's an entirely different thing, simply playing the system. :-S

 

 

pelmetman - 2011-12-22 8:52 AM

 

Amazon is very good .....................Just bought a new digital camera (Business expense ;-) )............No hassle, no parking costs, no fuel costs, no hoards of grumpy shoppers *-)

 

......though I'm sure the emoticon after "Business Expense" doesn't really have any significance, Dave.

 

Let him who is without sin............

[Guest pelmetman]

francisgraham - 2012-02-19 11:08 AM

 

The reason you don't pay tax is because you don't earn any money. The reason you don't earn any money is because your pelmet business went downhill. If it was successful, why did you go to all the trouble of setting up another firm making pouffes, which also appears to have gone downhill?

 

The picture is of a garage I had built 10 years ago after I'd renovated the house ;-)............anyone who has done up a listed property will know how expensive it is 8-).........the garage cost 40k admittedly it was 30 foot long and included a guest wing.................why 30' because I was contemplating a nice "A" class having sold the yacht because I finally accepted that Sue didn't like sailing :'(................What happened??.............I had a tax investigation and they tried to screw me for 13k................Which they didn't get >:-)......but it made me realize I was nothing more than a government meal ticket 8-)

 

So now I'm not a "Have Not"...........I'm a "Don't Want" B-)

[Guest pelmetman]

Robinhood - 2012-02-19 12:08 PM

 

pelmetman - 2011-12-22 8:52 AM

 

Amazon is very good .....................Just bought a new digital camera (Business expense ;-) )............No hassle, no parking costs, no fuel costs, no hoards of grumpy shoppers *-)

 

......though I'm sure the emoticon after "Business Expense" doesn't really have any significance, Dave.

 

Let him who is without sin............

 

A legitimate business expense Robin ;-).............I have two web sites to which I upload pictures, and my old camera (also a business expense :D) had started playing up.

 

I now follow the example set by our glorious politicians and look after No 1 (lol)

 

As for "We're all in this together"...............What a load of sh!te (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol)

[Robinhood]

pelmetman - 2012-02-19 12:19 PM

 

Robinhood - 2012-02-19 12:08 PM

 

pelmetman - 2011-12-22 8:52 AM

 

Amazon is very good .....................Just bought a new digital camera (Business expense ;-) )............No hassle, no parking costs, no fuel costs, no hoards of grumpy shoppers *-)

 

......though I'm sure the emoticon after "Business Expense" doesn't really have any significance, Dave.

 

Let him who is without sin............

 

A legitimate business expense Robin ;-).............I have two web sites to which I upload pictures, and my old camera (also a business expense :D) had started playing up.

 

I now follow the example set by our glorious politicians and look after No 1 (lol)

 

As for "We're all in this together"...............What a load of sh!te (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

....of course it was a legitimate business expense, and of course, you don't habitually use it for private use (and my name is probably really Robin van Hood B-) ).

 

.....I believe similar (attempted) justifications were used by some of the MPs. :-S

[Guest pelmetman]

Robinhood - 2012-02-19 12:31 PM

 

 

....of course it was a legitimate business expense, and of course, you don't habitually use it for private use (and my name is probably really Robin van Hood B-) ).

 

.....I believe similar (attempted) justifications were used by some of the MPs. :-S

 

Unlike our MP's I do need a camera to upload pictures..................and I do use it for private use as well......no point in buying 2 *-)

 

The difference between our MP's and me is that I'm not using taxpayers money to buy my cameras >:-(

 

Well back to the garden I've named my compost bins after political parties ..................I've turned over Labour............and made a start on the conservatives, but the bullsh*t I put in last year hasn't fully matured (lol)...................Guess I'll give the Liberal's a poke next :D

[Robinhood]

pelmetman - 2012-02-19 12:37 PM

 

Robinhood - 2012-02-19 12:31 PM

 

 

....of course it was a legitimate business expense, and of course, you don't habitually use it for private use (and my name is probably really Robin van Hood B-) ).

 

.....I believe similar (attempted) justifications were used by some of the MPs. :-S

 

Unlike our MP's I do need a camera to upload pictures..................and I do use it for private use as well......no point in buying 2 *-)

 

The difference between our MP's and me is that I'm not using taxpayers money to buy my cameras >:-(

 

....really? You can't relate claiming Tax Relief to the use of taxpayers money?

 

I rest my case!

[francisgraham]

So let's get this straight. Pelmetman objects to MPs and others whom he accuses of fiddling and I have no doubt that he is very happy that they were investigated. But when the Inland Revenue decides to investigate him it upsets him so much that he more or less gives up work so as to ensure that he contributes as little as possible to the economy.

What a strange attitude! He was investigated but didn't have to pay any extra tax but, for some reason, he believes that, whilst MPs and other high earners should be subject to scrutiny, he shouldn't be subject to investigation himself.

He then tells us (nudge nudge, wink wink!) how he's bought a new camera and put it through the business but fully intends using it personally and, as he claims to be working as little as possible we can assume that it will be used much more for his holidays than for uploading photos to his websites. I would actually assume that his websites have already had all their photos uploaded anyway, why would you be wanting to put new photographs of pelmets and pouffes on a website every few days?

The real answer is that he's a total hypocrite. If MPs did this, it is, as RH says, corrupt practice, but if Pelmetman does it he's just playing the system.

Will he put a reasonable proportion of the cost of the camera onto his P11D at the end of the tax year? Yes, of course he will!

One law for Pelmetman and another for those who happen to be more successful than he is!

Give it a rest PM, we all know the real reason why you no longer work and earn much money! You're not fooling anyone!

[Guest pelmetman]

Robinhood - 2012-02-19 12:46 PM

 

 

....really? You can't relate claiming Tax Relief to the use of taxpayers money?

 

I rest my case!

 

My mind boggles as to how you get to that conclusion Robin

 

There is a huge difference between using money that I have earn't through my own labour in the private sector........and using money provided by the taxpayer to trim the Prime Ministers wisteria *-)

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

francisgraham - 2012-02-19 1:35 PM

Give it a rest PM, we all know the real reason why you no longer work and earn much money! You're not fooling anyone!

 

I am Francis............turning over compost is hard work...........although I'm well pleased with the "House of Lords" very well rotted ;-)

 

I have no need to fool anyone ;-).............your'e the one who judges everyone by the size of their wad or what school they went to...........................I just treat people in the same way they treat me :D

[francisgraham]

pelmetman - 2012-02-19 1:45 PM  There is a huge difference between using money that I have earn't through my own labour in the private sector........and using money provided by the taxpayer to trim the Prime Ministers wisteria *-)

No there isn't, fiddling is fiddling, full stop.

Taxpayers pay tax in order to pay for public services. Do you object to paying the wages and expenses of police officers, fire fighters, servicemen and nurses for instance? Or is it just MPs that you have this silly obsession with?

Your determination to deliberately avoid paying tax puts you in the same camp as Philip Green and the other tax exiles and those who milk the benefits system for all it's worth.

[Robinhood]

pelmetman - 2012-02-19 1:45 PM

 

Robinhood - 2012-02-19 12:46 PM

 

 

....really? You can't relate claiming Tax Relief to the use of taxpayers money?

 

I rest my case!

 

My mind boggles as to how you get to that conclusion Robin

 

There is a huge difference between using money that I have earn't through my own labour in the private sector........and using money provided by the taxpayer to trim the Prime Ministers wisteria *-)

 

 

 

....frankly, MY mind boggles that you can't see a parallel between claiming business tax relief for an item that is used mainly privately and MP's questionnable practice in claiming expenses.

 

Similar excuses have been used to try to defend both; at some point a line is crossed that invalidates the practice, and they both, in different ways, effectively deplete the same pot!

 

(Of course, I admit that I can't tell whether your use is really sufficient to merit such relief - I simply proposed that a clue might be in your original use of an emoticon, and your putative work/life balance, and used it as a possible example in a wider argument).

 

A plague on both your houses. :-S

[Guest pelmetman]

francisgraham - 2012-02-19 1:58 PM

pelmetman - 2012-02-19 1:45 PM  There is a huge difference between using money that I have earn't through my own labour in the private sector........and using money provided by the taxpayer to trim the Prime Ministers wisteria *-)

No there isn't, fiddling is fiddling, full stop.

Taxpayers pay tax in order to pay for public services. Do you object to paying the wages and expenses of police officers, fire fighters, servicemen and nurses for instance? Or is it just MPs that you have this silly obsession with?

Your determination to deliberately avoid paying tax puts you in the same camp as Philip Green and the other tax exiles and those who milk the benefits system for all it's worth.

I agree................which is why my camera is a legitimate expense :D...............and no I have no problem with front line services...............my objection is with the fat cats and MP's who treat the public purse as their own private thief dom, and that some of our civil servants think they should get a bonus just for doing their job *-)No doubt you will come back with "they could earn much more in the private sector"..........I doubt it......as the private sector doesn't pay for incompetence........unless of course you work for a pseudo private company like Rail Track etc *-)

[Guest pelmetman]

Robinhood - 2012-02-19 2:04 PM

 

 

A plague on both your houses. :-S

 

Thank you kindly Robin......................another day of work..............I've got the plague (lol) (lol)

[Guest pelmetman]

Robinhood - 2012-02-19 2:04 PM

 

 

Similar excuses have been used to try to defend both; at some point a line is crossed that invalidates the practice, and they both, in different ways, effectively deplete the same pot!

 

 

I think your find the difference is the money I spent on the camera was never anywhere near the "pot".........much like the money I spend on fuel, tools, materials, this laptop etc etc............they are all legitimate expenses....................Where as I do not think the PM's wisteria was ;-)

 

Maybe I ought to get a gardener as my back is now aching....................I wonder if I could put him down as expenses :D