Brian Kirby Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Retread24800 - 2012-02-17 12:02 AMBrian Kirby - 2012-02-17 12:38 AM Retread24800 - 2012-02-16 10:48 PM......................Driving a large white van, be it coach built,PVC or builders requires a degree of concentration, lets be sensible, Trees do not spring from out of the field, HGV's are not teleported in to confound you. What you are describing is someone who is not paying attention and is driving other than in accordance with the road conditions.:-( .................. People report their experience, driving their vehicles. Apparently, you have different experience. The comment above seems to me merely to belittle those whose experience is not as yours, but I am at a loss to know why: who benefits from that? I know what Colin means, and I agree with him. My Experience was as the full time driver of a panel van, in Devon on all the small roads you are likely to encounter. If you dont pay attention, you will have problems, I used to hate the summer and groccles, seemed to us they all went to work by train, passed their tests in a Morris Oxford, had no concept of spacial awareness and only used the car/ motor caravan on sunny summer days. The number we had to help reverse down a country lane, or remove themselves from the corner of a cottage because of poor judgement, to be fair tuggers were a million times worse, so where am I coming from? I respect skilled driving, I cannot understand the old insurance joke of 'the tree jumped out in front of me' If that happened to me I was off the road, faced with a huge bill and without the means of earning a living , so I made d..ed sure the trees stayed where they were planted:-)Then I'm sorry Roger, but I'm going to disagree with you. I think you are seeking to erect a bar that would exclude a very high proportion, possibly the great majority, of all drivers, and that in itself is unrealistic. People can only be expected to possess reasonable skills, not exceptional skills. Those who drive all day, every day, inevitably become far more adept with their vehicles. Most people do not do this and, by definition, motorhome drivers are leisure drivers who drive their vans irregularly, and not necessarily that often.Almost all will have passed their tests in cars, many will have gone to work by train, and will at first find their motorhomes dauntingly large, and may at times panic, or freeze, when confronted with difficult situations. Many are also "mature" drivers, so are unlikely to have the reactions of teenagers - for which they will generally compensate with significantly greater general driving experience, and less impetuosity. Many will wear spectacles, which in themselves make aspects of driving more difficult. Quite a few will lack the suppleness of youth, reducing their ability to swivel round for a quick look behind. Most will be driving along roads they have never previously driven, possibly in countries they have never previously visited, possibly looking for, or trying to read, direction signs while doing so. Many will, indeed, find reversing under duress in a narrow road with a ditch on one side, far more difficult than reversing in normal, controlled, circumstances in a car park.Much of what has been said on this string relates to individual people's self-confidence while driving, and many may have learnt the hard way that their abilities, at some time or other, did not quite match their self-confidence. :-) If that makes them more cautious, even hesitant, IMO, that is no bad thing. Over-confidence in one's abilities is, on the whole, a far more dangerous thing. Pretty much everyone, everywhere, drives, so a far wider range of abilities, and self-confidence, than you extol, just has to be accepted. In essence, that what this string started by Calypso is about. In that context, I'm afraid I find your "if you can't handle your motorhome like a twenty-something courier van driver, you shouldn't be driving" response, very unhelpful as an answer to Calypso's question. I'm sorry to have taken Calypso's string somewhat off topic, but I really don't think she should allow herself to be put off by what you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 1footinthegrave - 2012-02-16 7:31 PM http://www.bentleymotorhomes.co.uk/artisan-range.html Take a look, 7 foot 3 inches wide incl mirrors for a CB. this is what they say From our motorhome experiences on narrow roads and tight spaces, we’ve created vehicles that fit a more adventurous lifestyle. We have engineered the exterior of the motorhome to provide you with a slimmer vehicle, making parking, turning and manoeuvring easier and quicker. I have had a 'good' look at these at 'Heart of England' motorhomes, And am VERY impressed, since the demise of Autocruise coachbuilts, this is the range my 'Next' van is coming from, either the 'Cerise' a 'Tardis' with a rear door, or the 'Cobalt' which is the same layout as my 'Starburst'. Both not 'Over long' and yet with more 'elbow room' than a PVC. ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The answer to the question asked is so easy I am suprised it was asked. Yes width does make a differance but I fail to see how that differance matters much. Our van is 2.24 without mirrors and we have never had a problem going where we wanted, an awfull lot of our time is spent in the mountains and we both love driving the high passes. It is simply a question of keeping calm, no great driving skill is involved, this is a big white box on wheels not a rally car. I do not accept that a long driving experience or being a full time driver makes you a good one, look at the low standard of lorry driving now and we have all seen 'white van man' not much skill here they just think their is. Being able to judge the width is helpfull but again no real skill involved just a bit of practice. I have found in europe on a road that sometimes has no room to pass and a big drop on one side it is simple a matter of looking ahead and planning things a bit. If, as does happen, you meet something with no room just take my own time and sort it out, I will not be rushed and if required will get out and talk to the other driver, useless waving fists at each other. I find the hardest place to drive is in the UK. In North Wales as, onefoot, has said dry stone walls make a great hazard as their is no room to get over the edge of road a bit. The Scottish single track roads are easy as rarely any walls and nice passing places. The only advantage a PVC has is not width but height, if your van is to high you are stuffed, no amount of shunting will sort this out. Have I ever smashed a mirror, well yes, about three years ago on a post, all my own fault. It was nearside and cost £170 pounds, replaced it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Dear BrianI dont know whether to be flattered or not by your letter, as a glasses wearing, retiree, with a bad neck who has to rely on the co pilot for roadside info.............:-)The previous post which refered to defensive driving techniques, was music to my ears, driving is a skill and those skills need to be honed, you can buy the best saw or chisel in the world but without regular care a blunt saw won't cut and a blunt chisel is likely to cut you!The thrust of my earlier comments was not that any portion of the population should be barred from their enjoyment, only that they should drive at a speed commensurate with their vehicle size, the road and their ability, as you quite rightly say reactions diminish with age, but one of the advantages of driving a big white van is that you can see a lot further down the road than the average motorist, don't concentrate on the tarmac, look ahead over the hedge, and take avoiding action before the situation becomes out of your control, often the best action you can take is to stop and pull as far into the hedge/wall as you can and allow the other driver to 'edge through.Driving the Hymer at first seemed a step too far due to the apparent increase in width, its only when you realise that the width has always been there, (as it was with my Chausson) but now its there in front of me, as you said, with experience you learn to cope, you learn to reverse using the mirrors ( I'm fortunate in that I have large auxilliary fisheye mirrors which give a view of my skirt and the road edge), the time to gain this experience though is not when you are trundleing down a country lane.After all this, Motor-homeing is a great pastime allowing you to visit other areas in comfort and safety, theres no rush, the way out of a stressful situation is often slight pressure on the brake pedal.As for size what are we looking at? No more than 6" extra per side. or just over a handswidth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith T Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 what a shame that yet another very valid subject can degenerate into such patronising replies from certain contributors! Surely there are two very important points - 1 you have to be comfortable with whatever you drive, and size does come into the equation. 2 the comment about other people's driving skills means nothing - especialy the 'experienced' white van drivers......they are often the worst, perhaps not the least reason being they are driving someone elses vehicle. Yes they may drive a lot further than most of us, but they also, in my experience, are the least polite, and least willing to give way. And as mentioned above, it's their mirrors will are at the same height as ours. Personally...perhasp as I get older.....I drive on the basis that every other drive is an idiot - not true I know,but one way to ensure that as far as possible drive safely. Finally, it's back to the 'horses for courses' syndrome, and I failt o see whay any contributor feels he/she has the right to say his/her view is the correct one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Interesting Keith T, what patronising replies are you talking about I have not seen any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Retread24800 - 2012-02-17 1:01 PM Dear BrianI dont know whether to be flattered or not by your letter, as a glasses wearing, retiree, with a bad neck who has to rely on the co pilot for roadside info.............:-)......................................As for size what are we looking at? No more than 6" extra per side. or just over a handswidth.Well, perhaps it is just me but, as you will have gathered, it wasn't quite how it came across to me. Of course driving is a skill, and it one we all learn but, like everything, to varying degrees of competence. Your post just seemed not to want to accept the inevitability of that, and I'm afraid seemed to me to disparage those for whom driving motorhomes is not immediately easy or instinctive. But, as I say, that may be just me.If you will forgive me putting words in your mouth, what I think you are really saying to Calypso is not to worry too much about getting a wider van, because with practise, the more they drive it, the better they will adapt. If correct, I couldn't agree more! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calypso Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 well thank you everybody for your helpful replies...we've learned a lot from them. After doing loads of looking on the internet and weighing up all the different measurement we 've come to the conclusion if we dont try the wider van there is not much else than to revert back to a panel van conversion {we will keep that to plan B....for the time being}It's not as if we are looking at one off's is it? every other van you see on the road is about this size....we are hoping to go for a test drive tomorrow....so all stay away from Preston....We are not taken to going on narrow roads ..unless Jane tom tom gets her own way..... which is not often...most of our traveling is to Dover and over to France..and like has been said the roads there are not as busy as here, we don't very often go into towns. once again thank you all very much Jean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolken Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi Calypso A bit late this response, had the lurgy for a few days and not bothered with forums. Anyway, I feel sort of qualified to reply to your original question, having started with an Autocruise, moved to a Calypso, then a wider Autotrail and am currently waiting for delivery of a Bentley. The Calypso is a much missed van and had there been one available the last time we changed it would have been our first choice. Still miss that wonderful VW engine. The Autotrail is 7ft 3ins plus the mirrors and quite manageable, however the new vans available now are mostly wider still, and our need to use the van more whilst on-site has led to the decision to get a Bentley. For me it was how we will use the van that led to the decision to go for the narrower model, as onboard living was pretty much the same in the last two vans we have owned despite the size difference. Those who say you get used to the larger size are quite correct, the only difference immediately obvious will be the higher seating position and the more van like feel of the cab. Whatever you decide enjoy your time choosing, and we'll avoid Preston tomorrow. Best wishes and good luck with your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-02-16 11:38 PM Retread24800 - 2012-02-16 10:48 PM......................Driving a large white van, be it coach built,PVC or builders requires a degree of concentration, lets be sensible, Trees do not spring from out of the field, HGV's are not teleported in to confound you. What you are describing is someone who is not paying attention and is driving other than in accordance with the road conditions.:-( .................. People report their experience, driving their vehicles. Apparently, you have different experience. The comment above seems to me merely to belittle those whose experience is not as yours, but I am at a loss to know why: who benefits from that? I know what Colin means, and I agree with him. Thanks for coming to my defence Brian but don't worry I know that I've had only one accident in 50 years of driving and that was on black ice, I've never clipped a mirror and hope I never do but the answer to the original question is still yes it does make a difference which is not too say that the advantages of a wider outfit do not offset the problems of driving the wider vehicle. Obviously the fact that we have an AutoTrail mean that we think they do. Comments probably made by one of the very few capable of threading a camel through the eye of a needle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I also think that the extra width can effect your driving confidence at first. When we changed from a coachbuilt, with its narrower cab, and inset mirrors, to an A class, the difference seemed very daunting at first. The Hymer has 7 " of body outside the wheel, then 10 " of mirrors outside of that. It does concentrate the mind a little when driving along narrow crowded streets in towns and villages, with parked vehicles one side, and you driving close to the kerb, with 10 " of mirror overhanging the pavement at pedestrian head height. Perhaps all motorhomes should have electric turn in mirrors, it would make life easier. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyExsis Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hello Calypso, Yes a wide range of views and as with most things there is no definitive answer at the end of the day it's your choice. We were faced with the same dilema in 2006 when we wanted to move up from a camper based on a Vito van conversion. We didn't want to compromise our go/park anywhere freedom too much and spent 18months before we made the decision to buy the Hymer Exsis. There were many considerations with regard to the right balance of internal space/ storage and the external width/length and drivability. Narrower is easier and more relaxing when the situation demands, we did notice the effect of the overhanging branches in lanes with our above average height and straight sides compared to a panel van, but we made the right choice for us. All vehicles have to be driven with regard to their footprint. The choice is your compromise of increased space or easier driving and perhaps the type of use you envisage. Good luck with making the right decision for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-02-16 11:38 PM Retread24800 - 2012-02-16 10:48 PM......................Driving a large white van, be it coach built,PVC or builders requires a degree of concentration, lets be sensible, Trees do not spring from out of the field, HGV's are not teleported in to confound you. What you are describing is someone who is not paying attention and is driving other than in accordance with the road conditions.:-( .................. People report their experience, driving their vehicles. Apparently, you have different experience. The comment above seems to me merely to belittle those whose experience is not as yours, but I am at a loss to know why: who benefits from that? I know what Colin means, and I agree with him. Brian I completely fail to see how Retread has belittled anyone. What he has said is common sense and spot on, why would you think otherwise. A certain amount of skill/practice is called for driving anything but their is no great trick to driving a M/H, it is exactly as he states, you just need to look ahead and concentrate a bit, sometimes a lot. Perhaps you mean trees do jump out at you and HGV are teleported in, am I missing something here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 rupert123 - 2012-02-18 3:55 PM Brian Kirby - 2012-02-16 11:38 PM Retread24800 - 2012-02-16 10:48 PM......................Driving a large white van, be it coach built,PVC or builders requires a degree of concentration, lets be sensible, Trees do not spring from out of the field, HGV's are not teleported in to confound you. What you are describing is someone who is not paying attention and is driving other than in accordance with the road conditions.:-( .................. People report their experience, driving their vehicles. Apparently, you have different experience. The comment above seems to me merely to belittle those whose experience is not as yours, but I am at a loss to know why: who benefits from that? I know what Colin means, and I agree with him. Brian I completely fail to see how Retread has belittled anyone. What he has said is common sense and spot on, why would you think otherwise. A certain amount of skill/practice is called for driving anything but their is no great trick to driving a M/H, it is exactly as he states, you just need to look ahead and concentrate a bit, sometimes a lot. Perhaps you mean trees do jump out at you and HGV are teleported in, am I missing something here. Don't want to prolong it Henry. I wrote as I reacted which, predictably, is not as you reacted. I'm a sensitive soul, you see. Some of us just are! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Just waiting for an approaching M/home or caravan with a loose slide out that comes out when going around sharp corners, and dissappears back into the vehicle when going around an opposite handed sharp corner. (and the driver not noticing it in the mirrors !) Rgds (BTW :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-02-18 4:48 PM rupert123 - 2012-02-18 3:55 PM Brian Kirby - 2012-02-16 11:38 PM Retread24800 - 2012-02-16 10:48 PM......................Driving a large white van, be it coach built,PVC or builders requires a degree of concentration, lets be sensible, Trees do not spring from out of the field, HGV's are not teleported in to confound you. What you are describing is someone who is not paying attention and is driving other than in accordance with the road conditions.:-( .................. People report their experience, driving their vehicles. Apparently, you have different experience. The comment above seems to me merely to belittle those whose experience is not as yours, but I am at a loss to know why: who benefits from that? I know what Colin means, and I agree with him. Brian I completely fail to see how Retread has belittled anyone. What he has said is common sense and spot on, why would you think otherwise. A certain amount of skill/practice is called for driving anything but their is no great trick to driving a M/H, it is exactly as he states, you just need to look ahead and concentrate a bit, sometimes a lot. Perhaps you mean trees do jump out at you and HGV are teleported in, am I missing something here. Don't want to prolong it Henry. I wrote as I reacted which, predictably, is not as you reacted. I'm a sensitive soul, you see. Some of us just are! :-D Ah, sensitive, that explains a lot, good way of not replying as well. I am one of these people who if I see the words green, enviromentally friendly, organic, recycled etc. tend to run a mile, tree hugger I am not, sensitive I am not so you are correct their, will take it as a compliment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 rupert123 - 2012-02-18 5:35 PM.....................Ah, sensitive, that explains a lot, good way of not replying as well. ............... I did reply to you, Henry, but I had my debate with Roger, it is all there to read, including my reasoning, and I really can't see any point in repeating it all for your benefit: the answer to your question is there. So I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, it has all been said, and I don't want to hi-jack Calypso's thread for what seems destined to become a rather pointless argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I guess that I made an error by seemingly criticising some sensitive souls, nothing was further from my mind at the time, but like some other contributors here I dont write with one eye on the P.C manual in case I upset a minority interest. I dont apologise if, by reading my post, someone realises that they are now unable to safely conduct their vehicle on the highway. It is in everyones interest to protect the reputation of Motorhomers. I had thought that a few pointers in the right direction, Looking well ahead and risk assesment, suitable speed on narrow lanes etc, might alleviate the general scarey tone of the posts up to then, and when the remark about trees springing up out of nowhere came up I was begining to think someone was driving near hogwarts. Yes I drove a panel van in Devon,yes I drive defensively, No I dont break mirrors, No I dont expect every one else to give way to me, and Yes I own(ed) my vans so that if I crunched I paid.What would worry me? The thought of Crunching a £ 60,000 asset. now that would bring me out in a cold sweat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Surely this ( as is often the case ) is getting silly. Two vehicles that approaching one another that can comfortably fit in their respective lane markings with room to spare is quite obviously a less stressful experience for all concerned. The OP will make their own judgement, all I can say is having spent the best part of 30 years driving large vehicles, everything from trombone trailer artics, to coaches, the larger it is, the more stressful it becomes, there is very little room for error a lot of the time, now if that's want for your leisure driving who am I to argue, but trust me extra width ( and length ) does make a huge difference. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Oh dear, now it seems I'm in the poo! :-) My starting point is that I think we are all reasonably mature, experienced, sensible, drivers, albeit we will have different experiences. However, when we change from driving cars to driving motorhomes, or from smaller motorhomes to larger motorhomes, there are certain things we have to learn afresh, and adapt our driving accordingly. However, I think most of us also know that. Some people seemed to me to be relaying some of their impressions of that transition. So, the quip about a tree jumping out is just that, a quip - not to be taken literally - just an illustration of how it felt at the time, because the author had been caught out by the need to dodge roadside trees. This does not often happen to car drivers, except during gales! :-) It seems he dodged adequately, because he is here to report the experience, and the fact that he considered it worth mentioning, suggests to me that having learnt the lesson, he thought it worth passing on. So, I see a generous gesture, not an admission of incompetence. So, shedding my sensitive side, I take issue with "If you dont pay attention, you will have problems, I used to hate the summer and groccles, seemed to us they all went to work by train, passed their tests in a Morris Oxford, had no concept of spacial awareness and only used the car/ motor caravan on sunny summer days. The number we had to help reverse down a country lane, or remove themselves from the corner of a cottage because of poor judgement, to be fair tuggers were a million times worse, so where am I coming from? I respect skilled driving, I cannot understand the old insurance joke of 'the tree jumped out in front of me' If that happened to me I was off the road, faced with a huge bill and without the means of earning a living , so I made d..ed sure the trees stayed where they were planted". I take issue with it because to me it merely displays arrogance. Thus my question: who benefits from that? Who does it help? This was not "seeming" criticism, it was a total put-down, spiced with prejudicial parallels with groccles, Morris Oxfords, train commuters, and tuggers. So, I'm sorry, but misplaced and unhelpful. Now, where did I leave my sensitive side? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I'm sorry Brian but you seem to pick the post to support your argument. My origional post to which you objected 16th Feb @11.48 was in reply to Colins' Quoting trees and HGV's 'suddenly' appearing out of no where. Nothing 'suddenly' appears from no where, you are just not paying attenion, you are driving outside your capabilities. I dont find this at all defenceable. Rather drivers should be taken to task not applauded.I find it insupportable that a major voice on this forum should support dangerous driving, lack of appreciation of road conditions is only a small step from having an accident.You asked whether I had had different experiences to this? I replied in lighthearted mode that indeed I did, and only at that stage refered to holiday drivers, If you too had had my experience, you too would be equally disparaging. You may not like it but thats the way it is. At that time you failed to take exception to my post and continued to refer back to the beamed in HGV's and perambulating trees. Admit it Brian you jumped in in support of a flippant statement and now are unable to justify that support. And by attacking the second post are trying to draw attention away from your first attack on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Oh come on guys with the bickering, you could be dead tomorrow, what does it matter, ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 1footinthegrave - 2012-02-18 10:16 PM Oh come on guys with the bickering, you could be dead tomorrow, what does it matter, ;-) yeah............should realy be outside fixing the leak under the sink from the so called push on drain connectors. So thats me finished, now wheres the cork screw;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twooks Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Just remembered why I stopped dropping by, such a happy bunch of campers wot ime Brian generally produces detailed well thought out and documented posts, he goes to a lot of effort to ensure he gives a full and balanced reply, and does not generally respond with flip glib responses - unlike a lot of us on here, me in particular. To return to OP, read and consider your options, try for a lengthy test drive, go for whatever you think will best suit your life style and enjoy your trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I'm coming back in on this one retread. I never made any remarks about trees jumping out or HGVs suddenly appearing. That seems to be your sarcastic interpretation of what I actualy said. We have a narrow bendy road near us that for a considerable distance has very solid hedges and trees that prevent one moving over if a large vehicle suddenly comes round one of those bends. It has a record of regular accidents due to these problems. Guess what though these never seem to involve cars. Mainly it seems to be lorries. Strange that given that most HGVs drivers a very experienced and by and large careful. Could it be that size really does make a difference. No according to you that can't be possible. I won't drive our motorhome along that road. I don't care how experienced and clever you are on that road if a lorry comes round a bend there is simply nowhere to go and at best you be down one mirror or worse. Instead of prattling on about driving standards why can't you simply accept that the original question was does the width make a huge difference. I would have thought anyone with a modicom of common sense would be able to see that the obvious answer is YES. All of us that drive motorhomes based on the latest Fiat know that those very wide mirrors are to say the least vulnerable and drive accordingly. It dosnt stop us driving them because the other advantages of such vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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