thomsonjr Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Just bought a second-hand Hobby 600, 2001 model Motorhome which has a lot of extras added but now find that with just adding a driver the weight is just 30kg short of the maximum weight of 3500kg. Any thoughts on how easy it is to uprate to say 3750kg so that I can take the wife and some clothes/foodstuff on a trip. Otherwise I leave the wife at home and go off myself! Thanks Gleber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 sounds like a plan.... call these people and they will let you know over the phone, have you log book handy when you call. does your license allow you to drive 3500kg + http://www.svtech.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 The standard Hobby 600 was built on a Fiat Ducato 15 3500kg chassis wih a replacement AL-KO rear section. There were several motorisation options and, when the 2.8litre powerplant was selected, there was the choice of having the vehicle constructed on a 3850kg (or 4000kg) Ducato 18 'Maxi' chassis. How straightforward it would be to uprate your Hobby above 3500kg will depend on which chassis it is built on. If it's on a Ducato 18 'Maxi' chassis, then uprating would be just a 'paper exercise' as that chassis would already be designed to cope with a weight well above 3500kg. If it's on a Ducato 15 chassis, then things will be trickier, as there's a strong likelihood that you'll need to fit higher-rated tyres. I suggest you read through this earlier thread: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21602&start=1 (As a rule of thumb, if your Hobby has 15" wheels it will be on a Ducato 15 chassis: if it has 16" wheels then it's (probably) on a Ducato 18 'Maxi' chassis.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 thomsonjr - 2012-03-03 10:41 AM Just bought a second-hand Hobby 600, 2001 model Motorhome which has a lot of extras added but now find that with just adding a driver the weight is just 30kg short of the maximum weight of 3500kg. Any thoughts on how easy it is to uprate to say 3750kg so that I can take the wife and some clothes/foodstuff on a trip. Otherwise I leave the wife at home and go off myself! Thanks Gleber Leave the van as it is, leave the wife at home, go to naturists resorts and eat out.............Sorted :-D :-D Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 As already pointed out by Derek, this may not be so straightforward due to the chassis variants available. If it was originally on the heavy chassis and has been plated down, all that will be required is to reinstate the original limits. That should be quite straightforward. Otherwise, I'm afraid I think you may have a real problem with this van. Assuming you are of average build, from what you say your van has a usable payload of approximately 100kg which, as you have discovered, is unworkable. It will therefore be useful to get a few more facts. When you weighed your van at approximately 3,400kg, what actually was in it? Was the fresh water tank full, the waste water tank and toilet cassette empty, and were there as many full gas cylinders in the gas locker as it will take (assuming no LPG tank)? Was the fuel tank full? Was the van otherwise empty? I'm trying to get to the basis of your measurement - because I understand it excluded you. To give a more realistic idea of what payload you have you really need to get to its Mass in Running Order. Usually, this is calculated with the van empty except for a 90% full tank of fuel, 90% full fresh water tank, 90% full gas reservoirs, and the weight of a driver - taken to equal 75kg. In practise, it is far easier, and I think more helpful, to weigh with all full. In addition to weighing the van in this condition, it will be necessary to check the actual load on each axle. This should be straightforward at the weighbridge if you explain to the operator what you want. Since weighbridges are designed to weigh the weight of bulk goods delivered or collected, it is usual to weigh a vehicle on arrival, and again on departure, the difference being what was delivered or collected. For a motorhome, either approach can be adopted. If setting the weighbridge as for a delivery, first weigh the whole van (weight 1), and then take the second reading with the front wheels driven just off the platform so that only the rear wheels are weighed (weight 2), the machine will then calculate the difference (weight 1) minus (weight 2), which in this case will give the front axle weight. Get the printed ticket and keep it safely for future reference. The vehicle VIN plate will, from Derek's description, have an AlKo supplement somewhere. The two together should tell you the maximum permissible weight for each axle. You will find it very costly and complicated to get these maximum axle weights changed. However, what you should find, is that if you add the maximum permissible weights from the plate/s together, they will total more than 3,500kg. What we now need to know is what are these axle maxima, and what were the results for the same axles at the weighbridge. You will then know how much payload load you have on each axle. This is important, because it is illegal to overload an axle, just as it is to overload the van. What immediately strikes me is that with such a slender payload (actually 30kg, bearing in mind 75kg of driver weight should have been deducted), it won't make any practical difference what the MAM is raised to, the working payload will be limited by one or other axle hitting its ceiling, most probably before you hit the increased MAM. So, if one or other axle is already near it limit, this may mean there is very little that can be gained in practical terms. What I am saying is that, based on your story so far, it sounds - at least at first sight - as though you have been sold an unworkable van that may never be satisfactory whatever you try to do to increase its MAM. As above, the good news story will be if it has previously been plated down. Otherwise, I'm afraid I seriously doubt that it could be claimed to be fit for purpose. You need to check its status as quickly as possible because, if it really is the basket case it sounds, you may find you have little option but to seek to legally reject it, and this requires you to act fast. Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 so what size are the wheels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Hi Gleber Before considering any upgrade of the MAM, do you have the relevant Licence category i.e. C1 I only ask as your forum name shows "junior" & may indicate you may not have if you passed your test post 1997. If you don't have C1 category, you will be restricted to 3500kg MAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I haven't got a 2001 Hobby catalogue, but the January 202 issue of "Which Motorcaravan" stated that Hobby 600 FS/KS models were then being built on a Fiat Ducato 3400kg AL-KO chassis. It would seem that, for the UK, the 2.8litre motor was the norm and WM quoted a Mass-in-Running Order (MIRO) of 2880kg. (Price was £38091) The earliest Hobby catalogue I have is for the 2005 model-year, by which time the Fiat-based 600 models had moved to a 3500kg AL-KO chassis and the quoted MIRO had risen to a minimum of 2950kg. The MIRO is qoted as including a full fuel tank, 75kg driver, 90% full fresh-water tank, full hot-water boiler and 90% full gas cylinders. I woudn't have thought that there are too many 2001 Hobby 600s in the UK that have recently been up for sale, so I'm wondering if the motorhome Gleber has bought is this one: http://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/used-motorhomes/hobby/toscana/2001/at8a60b91b2f48e507012f790fcf550c76/hobby-600-toscana-600 The "Toscana" name is wrong (Hobby didn't use it until much later), but otherwise the vehicle matches Gleber's description of having lots of extras. Some of these extras will be heavy (eg. awning and tow-bar), but I'd still expect there to be more user-payload left than 'a driver + 30kg'. This again raises the question of the accuracy of the weighbridge Gleber used (more detail on the earlier forum thread I gave a link to) - a weighbridge designed for 40-tonne trucks may not be super-accurate at 3500kg and an over-read of, say, 100kg for a motorhome may be sufficient to make the vehicle seem totally unusable as opposed to usable if one is really careful. Reweighing the Hobby on a different weighbridge would be worthwhile. A commonplace approach to uprating the maximum overall weight of a motorhome based on a standard Fiat chassis involves fitting heavier-duty rear tyres and rear-axle air-assistance. It is possible to fit air-assistance to an AL-KO chassis, but it's a lot more expensive (£1500 fitted?): it's also possible to add additional coil springs if the vehicle sags at the back. As has already been said, SVTech should be able to advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-03-04 8:59 AM I haven't got a 2001 Hobby catalogue, but the January 202 issue of "Which Motorcaravan" stated that Hobby 600 FS/KS models were then being built on a Fiat Ducato 3400kg AL-KO chassis. It would seem that, for the UK, the 2.8litre motor was the norm and WM quoted a Mass-in-Running Order (MIRO) of 2880kg. (Price was £38091) The earliest Hobby catalogue I have is for the 2005 model-year, by which time the Fiat-based 600 models had moved to a 3500kg AL-KO chassis and the quoted MIRO had risen to a minimum of 2950kg. The MIRO is quoted as including a full fuel tank, 75kg driver, 90% full fresh-water tank, full hot-water boiler and 90% full gas cylinders.............................. This again raises the question of the accuracy of the weighbridge Gleber used (more detail on the earlier forum thread I gave a link to) - a weighbridge designed for 40-tonne trucks may not be super-accurate at 3500kg and an over-read of, say, 100kg for a motorhome may be sufficient to make the vehicle seem totally unusable as opposed to usable if one is really careful. Reweighing the Hobby on a different weighbridge would be worthwhile.................................. If the weighbridge is not the culprit, I'm wondering if it was weighed with everything except Mrs Gleber and the food aboard. If so, the payload should be manageable with some manipulation: possibly less beer? :-D I can't really see, if the one you've sniffed out is the one, Derek, why the payload should now be so minimal. The extras will inevitably have eroded it, but surely not by over 450kg?! So yes, definitely visit a different weighbridge, but having first reduced the load to match the MIRO condition as I suggested above, and get the individual axle loads at the same time, plus that all important ticket. Something just doesn't quite ring true at present. I seem to recall that upgrading the AlKo chassis is not so straightforward, because the independent suspension arms are more difficult to add supplementary springs etc. I wonder if AlKo should be consulted on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-03-04 1:02 PM ...I seem to recall that upgrading the AlKo chassis is not so straightforward, because the independent suspension arms are more difficult to add supplementary springs etc. I wonder if AlKo should be consulted on this? It used to be impossible to add additional springs or air-assistance to motorhomes with AL-KO chassis, but not nowadays. The extra-springs kit and Dunlop air-assistance system are shown here http://www.essanjay.co.uk/services/suspension.php http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/store/suspensions-alko-chassis-c-58_139.html The practicability of making such modifications would, of course, depend on whether the Hobby conversion leaves sufficient space. I'd guess it would be OK, but one never knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomsonjr Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Weighed Hobby again on a different weighbridge - same story - same weight as before. Contacted dealer and they have agreed to uprate and to stand the cost. Thanks for all the positive feedback. Gleber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Oh..that's bit of a result then! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 thomsonjr - 2012-03-07 10:19 AM Weighed Hobby again on a different weighbridge - same story - same weight as before. Contacted dealer and they have agreed to uprate and to stand the cost. Thanks for all the positive feedback. Gleber Excellent news... As there was doubt over what you'd bought - whether your Hobby had a 'maxi' chassis that had been down-plated to 3500kg and could simply be re-plated to its original higher weight, or had a non-maxi chassis that would require mechanical modifications (eg. heavier-duty tyres/springs) to be uprated - it would be interesting to know what your dealer is planning to do and what overall and axle weights you'll end up with. Questions about motorhome weight changing (usually, but not always, upwards) come up every now and again and it's always helpful to have real-world examples to draw on when trying to offer advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 You say that you were only 30 kg shy of being overweight but you did not specify what the individual axle weights were and what the maximum weight is on each axle (there will be a plate or sticker giving the max load per axle). If you are running at the max on an axle, replating might not be the answer. My 2.8 JTD Ducato runs close to the max on the front axle and I could easily overload it. Mine has a 5 tonne MAM (not 3.5) and I have to be careful. This is a common problem on an AlKo chassis with a tag axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 thomsonjr - 2012-03-07 10:19 AM Weighed Hobby again on a different weighbridge - same story - same weight as before. Contacted dealer and they have agreed to uprate and to stand the cost. Thanks for all the positive feedback. Gleber You really should not, IMO, just leave this to the dealer. He will get it re-plated and return it to you OK, and you will have some kind of improvement to its MAM. However, a) he should not have sold it in its present condition and b) it is now your property, and the dealer should give you a full account as to how he proposes to achieve the extra payload, and how much it will be increased. What you really NEED to know is what are the individual axle loads as weighed, and what are the axle load limits. If all goes well, you may have a workable payload. But, as 747 says, if either axle is already near its legal limit, the extra payload will not be usable, and you will still be in exactly the same position as now, with an unusable payload. Personally, I would consult AlKo UK over any proposal to increase the rear axle load if that is under consideration, before agreeing to allow the dealer to go ahead with this. There really is something that does not gel with your van weights. The van seems originally to have had a payload of approximately 500kg. In case the point may be missed, that is half a ton! Even with the fitted extras I think your payload should still be in the region of 400kg, possibly down to 350kg, but definitely not down to 30kg. Has the previous owner fitted a lead lining? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travelling Tyke Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hello, Not exactly an answer ......... well it's a "question" I have pondered on from time to time and is relevant to the post:- Does anyone know what the accuracy of these weighbridges is and/or the tolerance spec.? As a 5% +/- for a 3500 Kg gives a window of 3325 kgs to 3675 kgs are we being a tad too cautious? Just a thought........ Considerate comments welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Travelling Tyke - 2012-03-07 8:04 PM Hello, Not exactly an answer ......... well it's a "question" I have pondered on from time to time and is relevant to the post:- Does anyone know what the accuracy of these weighbridges is and/or the tolerance spec.? As a 5% +/- for a 3500 Kg gives a window of 3325 kgs to 3675 kgs are we being a tad too cautious? Just a thought........ Considerate comments welcome. The only one that counts is the one VOSA will use if you are stopped and weighed. That will be taken as the state of your van at that time, on that day. Back to Clint Eastwood yet again, "are you feeling lucky?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Engine Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I had the same problem with my Murvi Morello two years ago, With my wife on board the van was over weight (no no she’s a slim lady!) even though I still had 100Kgs plus to spare on my rear axle. The problem was that the front axle was right on its limit and any additional weight put in the van pushed it over its limit. The only answer was to upgrade the entire front suspension by replacing it. A “paper” upgrade would have not done anything to solve the problem. It cost me £3500 and made my van usable. I hope thomsonjr’s dealer is feeling generous!!!! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Travelling Tyke - 2012-03-07 8:04 PM Hello, Not exactly an answer ......... well it's a "question" I have pondered on from time to time and is relevant to the post:- Does anyone know what the accuracy of these weighbridges is and/or the tolerance spec.? As a 5% +/- for a 3500 Kg gives a window of 3325 kgs to 3675 kgs are we being a tad too cautious? Just a thought........ Considerate comments welcome. A similar point was made in an earlier forum thread: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24564&posts=9 Best information I can offer now is what I offered then - this MHF thread http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-636682.html With two weighbridges providing the same reading, it would be very coincidental if both were inaccurate in the same way (ie. over-reading) and to a similar degree so that they arrived at the same weight-figure. The fact that the dealer is prepared to fund an uprating exercise also suggests that he (the dealer) believes that the Hobby's actual weight matches the weighbridge measurements. I believe there's little profit in offering further advice until Gleber provides the information I asked for in my earlier posting of 7 March. If his Hobby is on a Ducato 18 3850kg chassis that's been down-plated to 3500kg, then uprating will present little difficulty. If it's on a Ducato 15 3500kg chassis, then uprating (to, say, 3750kg) raises questions about maximum axle-loadings, tyre choice, springing and (Dare I say it?) the resale value of the vehicle. Surely by now, following the forum advice that's been given earlier and a second weighbridge visit, the weighed axle-loadings as well as the overall weight of the vehicle are known? There's no doubt that the maximum authorised axle-loadings should be easily available from the vehicle's data-plate. I'm guessing (if the Hobby is on a Ducato 15 chassis) that the maximum authorised axle-loadings will be 1750kg(front axle) and 1900kg or 2000kg(rear axle). The tyres will almost certainly be 215/70 R15C 109/107 with a maxiumum axle-load rating of 2060kg. Consequently, if the Hobby weighs 3470kg and, as is usual with a coachbuilt motorhome, its weight is biased towards the rear, the implications are plain to see - uprating the overall weight and loading the vehicle to exploit that uprating is likely to push the rear axle and existing rear tyres into overload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travelling Tyke Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Hello Derek, Thank you for the info. Much appreciated. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.