geoffcow Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 My wife and I have been towing our Smart fourtwo for some 18 months to Spain several times and elsewhere. On our return from Spain two weeks ago, the wheels suddenly locked and the engine was competely ruined. We were on a motorway so had to pull into a refuge to see what was wrong. THe wheels had unlocked and so we were able to continue towing and returned to the UK. I was aware that the vehicle had to be in neutral and the 'N' was showing before switching off. Somehow the car got into gear and the engine was stripped. We are in the process of making an insurance claim. The question I pose is this. Is there an inherant fault in Smart cars being towed on an A frame. Because if there is then we will avoid buying a replacement. Geoffcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 A frames. knackered car, Spain, this is going to be interesting, sorry to hear of your woes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I was told when I bought our toad that you couldn't tow a Smart car on an A-frame so I bought a C1. However, when I posted on here about the warning, several replies said that that had now changed and you could tow one. Having driven automatics all my working life I did think it was strange that an auto could be towed in N long distances but didn't want to argue based on hearsay. Thers has been a number of threads on here on this topic-quite recently one caught fire on the A1 on an A-frame. Sorry to hear about you problems, hope the insurance pay out ok. Be prepared for some 'I told you so' replies on here! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Sorry geoff, but you will not get much sympathy on this site all you will get is nasty comments as there is a hard core base of people that are dead against A frames and they will say it is your fault. Also sorry I cannot help you with your problem as I have not heard of this happening on any towcars I was looking in to the possibility of towing my new Toyota Aygo but this gives me the willies just thinking about it. I hope your insurance will cover for the damage let us know if you have any problems. , Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-03-07 12:34 PM Sorry geoff, but you will not get much sympathy on this site all you will get is nasty comments as there is a hard core base of people that are dead against A frames and they will say it is your fault.......................Mike. Steady on Mick, that is very unfair! There are people on here who have researched, and understand, the illegality of using A-frames outside the UK. There are others who reject the view that A-frames are generally illegal outside the UK, despite mounting, good, evidence to the contrary. However, that debate has no bearing on whether a Smart car can be towed without mechanical damage, and I'm sure none of the protagonists would say it was Geoff's fault his Smart car was ruined, merely because he was towing it with an A-frame. What I would say is that there has been very wide publicity given to the risk of mechanical damage being caused to Smart cars if they are towed. That information came, originally, from the manufacturer, and should be given credence. Unfortunately, Geoff either didn't check for, didn't hear of, or rejected, this information. He is now learning an expensive lesson - that the manufacturer's advice was well founded. I'm unsure what kind of insurance might cover his loss, but I'd be surprised if his claim succeeds. Nevertheless, I wish him well with it. Whatever he now does about the car, the best advice he can be given, overall, is to abandon his A-frame before he gains fines to add to his woes, and to tow whatever car he next gets on a trailer. That way, he will eliminate both the risk of mechanical damage to whatever car, and the risk of fines from using the A-frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I seem to recall some instruction on here that not only should it show as being in neutral but that there was a proceedure that 'locked' it in neutral, but then again I may have just confused the proceedure for putting it in neutral :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 We have members in the MCC who tow Smart Cars and haven't mentioned any problems towing them so could it be that the neutral position wasn't engaged as it should have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 rolandrat - 2012-03-07 5:15 PM We have members in the MCC who tow Smart Cars and haven't mentioned any problems towing them so could it be that the neutral position wasn't engaged as it should have been. That is, of course, a possibility. But then, are all Smart cars mechanically identical? If not, is it wise to assume they can all be treated in the same way, merely because they are called Smart? After all, I assume no-one would assume all Fords can be treated in the same way, merely because they are called Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Geoffcow, Sorry to hear about problem with your Smart. Do they produce a 'manual gearbox' Smart ? I would think that would be a better bet to tow, than any electronically controlled Auto. I have heard before that Smart Car automatic gearboxes have caused problems when being towed, sounds like yours somehow engaged a gear, very worrying. I am thinking of getting an 'A-frame', although only for use in the UK.. Yours is the First instance of technical or safety problems i have heard about with 'A frames'. So reading with interest. Not the 'Legal vs not Legal' bits though. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Not sure if this earlier thread is relevant in this instance, but the thread's title says it all! http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24631&posts=4 As has already been said, lots of motorcaravanners tow Smarts and Geoff himself has towed his car for 18 months without problems. I vaguely remember that, when Smarts first came out, the manufacturer strongly advised against towing a Smart on its wheels, but many Smart owners chose/choose to do this, apparently without catastrophic consequences. On-line comments usually emphasise the importance of ensuring that the vehicle's gearbox is in Neutral, but the earlier forum thread reveals circumstances where it's possible for the gearbox to appear to be in Neutral when it actually is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-03-07 12:34 PM Sorry geoff, but you will not get much sympathy on this site all you will get is nasty comments as there is a hard core base of people that are dead against A frames and they will say it is your fault. Also sorry I cannot help you with your problem as I have not heard of this happening on any towcars I was looking in to the possibility of towing my new Toyota Aygo but this gives me the willies just thinking about it. I hope your insurance will cover for the damage let us know if you have any problems. , Mike. Toyota Aygo is the same car as the Peugeot 107 & Citroen C1-we have towed a C1 all over without any problems but it is a manual. You shouldn't have any problems with that Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbotham Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I think Derek's on the right lines. Smarts have a manual/sequential gearbox with an auto change function; they're not torque converter type. There are enough people pulling Smarts on a-frames to demonstrate that scare stories about it not being possible are wrong, so long as the Smart is in N when being towed. However, as far as I know the gearbox on the Smart is drive-by-wire : the gear selector operates an electronic switch, it doesn't mechanically select the gear. So the gearstick being physically in the "N" position is no guarantee that the gearbox is actually in neutral. My memory's a little hazy as I sold my Smart a couple of years ago, but I do remember one circumstance (on a dark rainy night) when I couldn't get my Smart to start and eventually tracked it down to it being in gear...starter will only work with gearbox in N....it was in gear despite the gearstick being in the N position and (I think) the indicator on the dash readout saying N as well. It was only when I jiggled the gearstick a bit that N properly engaged. For this reason, best practise is to physically (as in human power) pull an a-framed Smart for the last metre or so up to the motorhome, so that way you can categorically know it's not in gear. I do find it a bit difficult to understand how a Smart in N at the beginning of a journey would jump into gear en-route....balance of probability has to be that the car was inadvertently in gear. I hate to be gloomy, but will insurance cover this? It's a mechanical failure. Of course if, like Locksmith's, the Smart had caught fire, it would be covered by the fire provisions on the insurance policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Geoff - you didn't saw how long you had been towing the Smart on the day it had the problem, so I assume it could have been a very short distance - if that is the case I suspect it was still in gear, despite showing as being in neutral, and you hadn't realised until you got up to a fair old speed. As has already been mentioned and has been said before on other threads etc, towing a Smart on an A-frame isn't recommended by the manufacturer and although quite a lot of people have done it, it doesn't mean there aren't consequences to the action, although I am very sorry that this has happened to you. I can't see what insurance you're hoping to get to pay out though Geoff, as the vehicle was being used against the manufacturer's advice they won't want to know, and the A-frame manufacturer won't take responsibility for the vehicle itself, the motorhome insurer won't cover it, and I wouldn't expect the Smart car insurers to pay for something like this either, so who are you expecting will??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Rosbothams, experience of Smart car ownership should instill confidence to all the present owners who tow their cars. As the gears are operated electronically a double check would be to start it up with the a-frame connected. If I owned one I would fit a battery isolation switch to prevent the electronics going haywire once the engine is turned off or disconnect the battery for peace of mind. I doubt whether an insurance claim would be accepted under the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Just a thought, many years ago I had a brand new Mercedes tractor unit with an electronic gearshift, each gear was displayed on the dash. On its first return journey from scotland a fault number started flashing so I pulled into the services. A service engineer came out but the fault had cleared whilst it was parked. If I was stationary it had a tendency to select gears on its own which was very dangerous. I went into numerous garages and lost countless hours being off the road. In the end I asked a garage to fit a new brain box to see if it might be the cause, they did very reluctantly after I threatened to abandon it across their garage doors. It turned out to be a positive action because after many months of so called experts stripping the electronics down to find the fault it was running as it should. It was all down to who was going to foot the bill at the end of the day. One problem I found was that these so called EXPERTS don't want to listen to the driver we are thick and don't know anything. On one occasion at a garage I left the engine running and told the fitter to wait and watch what would happen in due course, his reply was don't talk rubbish until the front end reared up when it jumped into gear, he was full of apologies after that. Electronics are capable of doing the strangest of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbotham Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Couple of observations on your experience Roland (2nd not really related to issue at hand but backs up your experience of "anything can happen"): - When towing a Smart on an a-frame, there's no key in the dash (pretty uniquely...there's no steering lock to overcome so no need to have key in ignition). So my technique of manually dragging Smart onto motorhome verifies that it's out of gear at that point. No matter what bizarre fault subsequently arises, it's very unlikely that the electronic selection of the gears would inadvertently kick in while there's no key in ignition hence none of the ECU circuitry's live. As I say, it's pretty failsafe, but downside is a degree of fitness being required to pull 750kg's worth of car. - Backing up your "anything can happen" account. A relative of mine recently wrote off a C-class Mercedes. Undoubtedly his fault, but weird. Manual car, he was used to automatic. Leant into car to start engine to defrost it - could never be an issue on his own car as engine wouldn't start unless gearbox was in park. Unfortunately this was a manual and was in gear. Rather than lurching forward and stalling as I'd expect, it shot off, 100 yds down a slope, and eventually came to a halt with the wheels still spinning trying to drive it up an incline. All with no pressure on the accelerator pedal. As soon as drive-by-wire electronics are involved, never assume anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 My Merc gearbox was called an EPS (electronic power shift) which is basically air electronic shift with no hydraulics involved. It just had a mind of its own. Maybe the Smart car electronic system was capable of storeing power that could have been released through a jolt or some form of shock that in turn selected the drive sequence. We may never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Received wisdom (courtesy of GOOGLE and motothome forums) seems to be that instances of Smart Car engine/transmission catastophic failures, when the car is being A-frame towed, have always been due to the vehicle's gearbox not being in Neutral when towing commences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 So, If i'm going to tow with an A-Frame, Dont use a vehicle with ANY type of electronically controlled gearbox, As an EX electronics engineer, give me electro-mechanical any day. Usually 'Fixable' and usually gives warnings before failure. With Electronics one day it works next it doesn't, replace it. Hope your 'Smart' proves to be an exception to the rule. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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