BGD Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Today's "Round Town News" (one of the Costa Blanca weekly newspapers) carries a report that a Mr Micheal Bryan was stopped by the Traffic Police and fined 500 euros (roughly £450) for illegally towing his Kia Picanto via an Armitage Trailers manufactured A-Frame behind his motorhome along roads in Spain. The papers motoring correspondent showed pictures of the Armitage trailers A-Frame setup to specialist Spanish engineers. The report says that they agreed with the Guardia that the use of such a device is illegal in Spain, other than to remove a broken down vehicle a short distance from the road in an emergency; as towing one vehicle with another is illegal in Spain. They also pointed out that the attachment points on the car are not homologated - another illegality under Spanish Road Traffic law. I'm trying to include a link to the on-line version of the original article: http://www.roundtownnews.com/online-paper/item/36496-rtn-north-edition-650.html Interestingly, Armitage trailers are quoted as saying that their A-frame setup is "totally legal" in the UK. That's news to me. Has the ambiguity of these things finally been tested in the UK courts then, and has a judge in the high court finally ruled that there use is legal on UK roads? Or are they telling the Spanish reporter a bit of a porky-pie? So, another warning to visitors: the Police really are now increasingly cracking down on people who flout this long-standing "no-towing-a-vehicle-with-another-vehicle" Spanish Road Traffic law...........be ready to pay a very hefty fine and have to de-couple and continue via separately driven vehicles if pulled for the offence over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 It's on page 60 if anyone wants to read it - 4th 'blob', 1st page Interesting article on Leishmania on page 6 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 So it appears just because Nigel from Armitage trailers says they are totally legal, The Spanish don't agree. I must say i am not surprised and just because they are convenient it doesn't mean they are legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 These links may be easier to handle: http://www.roundtownnews.com/rtn-features/rtn-motoring/item/32876-illegal-a-frames.html http://www.roundtownnews.com/rtn-features/rtn-motoring/item/36403-the-a-frame-usage-in-spain.html As "Nigel" of Armitage Trailers is (allegedly) adamant that their A-frame system is fully legal in all EU countries and that Micheal Bryan should not have been fined for using the Armitage-provided system for towing a car in Spain, it is to be hoped that he (or Armitage Trailers) will be refunding the cost of the fine to Mr Bryan and progressing the Spanish 'illegality' issue on behalf of other Armitage A-framing clients (present or future). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I have always said that A Frames will go the same way as Bull Bars, to the scrap yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 vindiboy - 2012-03-30 11:07 AM I have always said that A Frames will go the same way as Bull Bars, to the scrap yard. The BIG differance between Bull Bars and 'A Frames' is that Bull bars are of no use to the Motorist and are positively 'Lethal' to any Pedestrians that might be hit. A-Frames are NOT unsafe, hence many thousands of miles travelled by hundreds of users over the years. The manufacturers of A-Frames have to get their 'Act' together and get them legally accepted by the British Government and passed by 'Type approval' ie, get them 'Crash tested'. Obviously as they (the manufacturers of A-Frames) are mainly small outfits, they will need to get together and share testing costs, and of course make sure they conform to the 'Braking Rules'. Once that is done I see no problem (just don't try using one in Spain !!). They fill a particular 'Niche' market, if they were not very useful, no-one would be buying them. Ray ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 BGD, Well done for the info re A-Frames. Out of curiosity I rang a supplier of A-frames as advertised in MMM and in response to the question of legality in Spain I was told that the statement in their advert was correct. i.e. " EU legal now and with new laws in 2014". So I would now expect a - Get out of jail free - voucher to be included to cover, a) any fines imposed and b) if necessary to pay for a spare driver if ordered to de-couple if there was only one driver onboard. Me thinks more chance of a squadron of Pigs performing a Red-arrows display. Finally, if by some chance, LoL, the adverts placed in MMM are not correct then where does MMM stand legally/morally by accepting and presumably endorsing the claims ????? :-S Flying Solo without an A-Frame ---Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 mike 202 - 2012-03-30 1:00 PM ...Finally, if by some chance, LoL, the adverts placed in MMM are not correct then where does MMM stand legally/morally by accepting and presumably endorsing the claims ????? :-S There's a statement on MMM magazine's "Advertisers index" page that reads "...The views expressed by contributors are not necessarily those of the publishers. Every care is tajken to ensure that the contents of this magazine are accurate, but we assume no responsibility for any effect from errors or omissions." So, if A-frame suppliers advertise in MMM that their products are fully EU-legal now and in the future, it won't be MMM's fault if those claims prove to be incorrect. Nor will accepting and printing A-frame adverts imply any sort of agreement by MMM's publishers that the adverts are accurate, nor any legal/moral responsibility if statements made in the adverts (or by the advertisers) cause problems for buyers. I fail to understand why Ray continues to insist on batting on about the safety aspect of A-framing, as nobody has ever claimed that the practice is inherently unsafe, either in the UK or in other EU countries. Nor has there ever been any argument over the potential attractiveness or usefullness of the practice. There is absolutely no need for UK A-frame manufacturers to bother with crash testing, Type Approval, etc, but it would be nice if there were some evidence that those manufacturers were liaising with the relevant UK authorities and organisations and exploring how A-framing might be positively approved within the UK's legal framework and what the legal position is regarding UK A-framers travelling in other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantheman Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 By the look of the news today Spain needs the money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Derek, 'I keep on batting' because the only way to get things changed is to keep on 'Lobbying' about the issue. I disagree with laws (especially Road traffic ones) that make no sense, And restrict and penalise Motorhomers. Also, who knows maybye an A-Frame manufacturer will consider it 'Worth his while' to do something about the situation ? A correctly homogolated, crash tested, British Road transport approved, A-Frame would be more difficult to ban 'Europe wide'. Would it not ? And if it got those things i would definately buy one. Then you have all the folk who already own and use them, without any (safety) problems. They need a voice too. ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-03-30 4:35 PM A correctly homogolated, crash tested, British Road transport approved, A-Frame would be more difficult to ban 'Europe wide'. Would it not ? Ray I doubt it I'm not sure that the rest of Europe take that much notice of what the Brits think. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 As I understand it the object of crash testing a vehicle is to check that its ability to protect its occupants is up to standard. In UK law anything towed behind a vehicle is a trailer and the carriage of passenger in trailers is prohibited so there is no need to crash the towed vehicle. My mind boggles at the prospect of crash testing the complete set up of MH plus car behind. In practice because of the sheer variety of towing and towed vehicles, obtaining full type approval for all the possible combinations is never going to happen. Approval of the A frame itself might be relativly simple but its attachments to the tug and trailer would be separate issues with great expense involved. My guess is the only way to combat the stance taken by Spain would be for some brave very rich soul to take it to the European Court . He would have to gather a great deal of evidence that many millions of accident free miles have been covered, thus proving the law against towing vehicles on an A frame is uneccessary and an oppressive restriction of his human rights. One bad accident on record would blow the case out of the water. The phrase best of British luck springs to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 George, My idea of 'Crash testing' would be to prove that the 'A-Frame' with a car behind, behaves no more dangerously than a 'Car trailer' with a car lashed on to the trailer. My belief is that an A -frame would behave better and more safely than its 'Lawful rival'. That would be the basis for the testing, arent cars tested to see how they protect walking pedestrians in a frontal inpact, and 'marked accordingly' ?? Why not the safety of Trailers/A-Frames.and how they behave in a 'frontal accident situation'. Quite agree though, it would be expensive, considering the limited market. Ray Ps if anyone is saying, oh no not that old subject again, i didn't start this thread. But i do have an opinion about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I'm not totally convinced as to how much safer an 'A-frame' trailer would be when compared to a 'standard' trailer due to the articulating effect of the A-framed vehicle's front wheels. Perhaps that is the reason they are 'banned' in Spain???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I have passed a Land Rover on its side with the trailer still attached, a result of excess speed. Had the trailer been loaded with a car, where could the car have gone? It amazes me how the towball appears to keep the trailer attached. I have also seen caravans on there side still attached to the car, on its side too. Kind of suggests that the A frame would be safer but I am no expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't think anyone really 'Knows', until it is tested. But my experience of accidents and momentum is that it is far safer to have any 'heavy weights' (car) low down, and with as many wheels in contact with the ground as possible. My opinion is that a car would 'Break away' from a trailer in an Accident, strapping alone would not keep it retained to the trailer , then it would 'go where momentum takes it'. The trailer may or may not stay attached, but would probably 'jackknife' into the back of the towing vehicle. With an A-frame, I believe that the frame and the car would just 'Jacknife' into the back of the Towing vehicle, but as the car has it's wheels 'on the ground' it wouldn't go 'Airborne', it would probably turn over, because of the castor effect. As I said no-one really knows until someone tests it. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Obviously volunteers to crash test their MC +A frame towing car are required. Perhaps they should meet at a suitable venue ( telephone kiosk?) and form a commitee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 For goodness sake people, A frames in themselves are not the issue here. It is the practice of towing one vehicle, on its own wheels behind another that is against the law in Spain. No amount of bleeting and blarting on here is going to change that. If a UK court case resulted in the practice being accepted as legal here (doubtful) it would not alter the fact that the practice of towing a vehicle on its own wheels behind another vehicle is illegal in Spain. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Thank you for enlightening us to the obvious Dave/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Thank you for enlightening us to the obvious Dave/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 Dave Newell - 2012-03-31 6:42 AM For goodness sake people, A frames in themselves are not the issue here. It is the practice of towing one vehicle, on its own wheels behind another that is against the law in Spain. No amount of bleeting and blarting on here is going to change that. If a UK court case resulted in the practice being accepted as legal here (doubtful) it would not alter the fact that the practice of towing a vehicle on its own wheels behind another vehicle is illegal in Spain. D. Bingo, Dave. Always has been illegal in Spain (and in Portugal I believe, from reading Spanish motorhome forums). What's happening now is that the law on this is actually being enforced against foreigners (as well as any Spanish) who break it whilst driving on Spanish roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 but if it was tested in UK court and found legal (however unlikely that is) then under EU law you would be allowed to travel across Europe with one..eventually the men with guns would get the message Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Advice from the UK's Department for Transport regarding A-frame towing is given here: http://tinyurl.com/d5ozav5 As far as I can see, if a combination of motorhome + A-frame + towed-car manages to satisfy the criteria set in the DofT statement, then it would be difficult to argue that that combination should be considered illegal under UK law. If we choose to ignore things like the potential impact on a car's Type Approval status due to modifications to allow attachment of an A-frame to the car, or the ability of the system to meet the requisite braking performance for a trailer, the following DofT observation "...From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically..." seems to technically 'illegalise' all the overrun-braked A-frame systems that are currently used by the majority of UK motorcaravanners. The company advertising on this website (and in MMM) http://tow-bars2tow-cars.com/faqs.php claims that "Our unique electronic braking system gives you far more control over the braking of your tow-car, and it meets all European towing rules....Our A-Frame system is 100% legal and meets all known legislation." The website's FAQ section advises: "Q: Can I reverse the tow car behind my Motor Home? A: Yes. The unique A-frame design allows the vehicle to be reversed. There is NO sliding hitch like on a caravan, so it will go backwards. There is also an inherent drag within the steering motor on these vehicles, so the wheels do not "flop about". If you are still not convinced, please ask us for a demonstration! Q: I have heard these systems are illegal abroad: is this the case? A: The System has been designed in such a way that all aspects of the law are covered. 1. If brakes are fitted to a trailer (tow-car) they must work irrespective of the weight. 2. The overall braking efficiency must be proven to be over 50% on the train (motorhome + tow-car), whilst this is impossible to prove using a sliding hitch. Our system has been to the Millbrook proving grounds (the DVLA government approved testing ground for all things automotive) and because the brakes are applied electronically this has been tested to be above the legal minimum. 3. The trailer (tow-car) must be able to be reversed without the operator moving from the driving seat of the towing vehicle. The unique A-Frame design allows the vehicle to be reversed. 5. All rear lights must work from the motorhome controls including reversing lights. All our vehicles are wired to comply. 6. A mechanical break-away must be fitted to apply the brakes in the event of an emergency. All our vehicles have a mechanical break-away system fitted to the handbrake. (I don't know what happened to 4!. DU) Q: That’s all well and good but how do I explain that in a foreign country? A: We supply all our customers with a CE certificate proving that our system meets all the laws. We also supply in English, Spanish, French and Portugese information on our towing system and how it complies with EU law. We have had vehicles stop for a spot check but no customer has been forced to remove their tow car or been fined. The authorities recognise a CE certificate as an official document." It would appear from the above that this UK company has properly addressed all the 'legality' criteria mentioned by the DofT and, if that's the case, then anyone using that system within the UK should be have no fear of prosecution in this country. I personally believe that an overrun-braked A-frame system (like the Armitage product mentioned in the Spanish publication) does not conform fully to UK regulations. in fact, the "Trailer Law" section of Armitage Trailers' own website states: "...Braked trailers must be fitted with hydraulically damped coupling and auto reverse brakes to give braking efficiencies required by EEC Directive 71/320..." which is clearly not the case with their overrun-braked A-frame system that lacks automatic disconnection of the towed-car's brakes when the motorhome reverses. In principle, I would suggest that, if the specification, features and performance of an A-frame towing system fitted to a UK-registered motorhome all meet UK/EC trailer regulations, then the system has to be considered UK-legal. And vice-versa - if the system fails to meet UK/EC trailer regulations in any way, then it cannot be considered UK-legal. If a system is UK/EC legal, then this legality SHOULD (in my view) override national laws of other EU states that would prohibit those states' own residents from employing that type of towing arrangement. Essentially, I'm suggesting that Michael Riley was correctly fined in Spain because his A-frame system failed to conform to UK towing regulations, but, if he'd been using the tow-bars2tow-cars system, he should not have been prosecuted. However, while Brian Deller (in his Spanish RTN article) says "...Spain is out of step with other EU countries as the attachment is fully legal in the UK and other EU States...", the problem (as has been emphasised so many times before) lies not in "the attachment" (ie. the A-frame itself), but in the legality of towing one fully-functional vehicle with another. I see a motorhome A-frame towing and I don't immediately think "There's a motorhome towing a 4-wheeled trailer". I think (and I'm sure everybody else does too) "There's a motorhome towing a car." Even if UK regulations permit a UK-registered motorhome A-frame towing a car to be legally considered a vehicle + trailer combination and it's agreed that certain types of A-frame system fully conform with all relevant UK regulations, there's always going to be potential trouble when UK A-framers visit other countries that have a simple 'no-vehicle-shall-tow-another' policy. As I said ages ago, it's the UK that's really the EU exception when it comes to motorhome A-frame towing and it's unrealistic to expect other EU states with no-vehicle-shall-tow-another laws to accept our (let's be fair) peculiar interpretation of our own trailer regulations just because a small number of UK motorcaravanners think they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-03-30 1:47 PM .................................There is absolutely no need for UK A-frame manufacturers to bother with crash testing, Type Approval, etc, but it would be nice if there were some evidence that those manufacturers were liaising with the relevant UK authorities and organisations and exploring how A-framing might be positively approved within the UK's legal framework and what the legal position is regarding UK A-framers travelling in other countries. However Derek, from Bruce's previously posted transcript of the Spanish law, I don't think it would matter a hoot even if the A-frame were tested and approved in UK as a suitable means of towing a trailer. The Spanish law forbids one road vehicle from towing another, except under very stringent conditions regarding circumstances, licencing, and distance, which no UK A-framer is remotely likely to meet. The only argument that might, IMO, carry any weight, is that once attached to another vehicle with all its systems inert, the car becomes, de facto, a trailer: trailers being quite legal in Spain. The snag in trying to advance this argument outside the UK (and if tested in court, I'd guess even in the UK) is that the car carries a V5C registration document that declares it to be a car. We are almost unique in the EU in not requiring registration documents for trailers (though trailers of less than 750Kg, for some 500Kg, MAM seem generally to be excluded), but if we did, a car's V5C would seem to exclude it from being also a trailer (unless some special provision were made for joint designation where suitably adapted). So, elsewhere in the EU, a car is a car because it is registered as a car and, being so registered, cannot be a trailer, for which (generally) a separate registration document is required. The problem for those visiting Spain is that as a car is a registered road vehicle it cannot become a trailer, and so cannot be towed by another road vehicle except as permitted under the Spanish law regarding towing, with which those in transit cannot comply. It is not the A-frame that is illegal under Spanish law, it is towing another road vehicle. As an aside, I hope the author of the book who was quoted in Bruce's news mag wrote his book with greater clarity that he wrote in the paper, because he could otherwise be the main reason the A-framer got himself fined! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Dave Newell - 2012-03-31 6:42 AM For goodness sake people, A frames in themselves are not the issue here. It is the practice of towing one vehicle, on its own wheels behind another that is against the law in Spain. No amount of bleeting and blarting on here is going to change that. If a UK court case resulted in the practice being accepted as legal here (doubtful) it would not alter the fact that the practice of towing a vehicle on its own wheels behind another vehicle is illegal in Spain. D. So, we have three contributors who grasp the issue. Thank you Dave, I think Bruce and I were getting rather lonely out here! :-D Anyone else get it? Do join us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.