Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-03-31 9:10 AM but if it was tested in UK court and found legal (however unlikely that is) then under EU law you would be allowed to travel across Europe with one..eventually the men with guns would get the message Er, no. I'm sorry to say, Eddie, that in this instance, you are one of those who hasn't yet got it! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-03-31 12:28 PM So, we have three contributors who grasp the issue. Thank you Dave, I think Brice and I were getting rather lonely out here! :-D Anyone else get it? Do join us! Me ! I get it. But then I have no interest, for or against A-frames. ( I just see a lot of " clutching at straws " going on ). I suppose there is always the chance that someone at the top of the Spanish legal system reads this forum, and will change their laws - ???? You never know. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Final thought on this, not present legality, but future legality. The EU is set to adopt (among other provisions) UNECE regulation 13 on trailer braking some time in 2014. I suggest anyone who is considering using an A-frame beyond that date searches out a copy and carefully reads what it says. Under that regulation inertia operated overrun braking systems are restricted to single axle trailers (which can have two axles if close-coupled). Cars, obviously, have two, not close-coupled, axles so, under the provisions of the regulation have to be braked otherwise. Then, get out your ice pack, stick it on your head, and read what will be required, paying particular attention to such items as ABS and its operation in conjunction with the tractor unit. :-) I'm not saying can't, and I'm not saying never (and I wasn't prepared to spend time trying to invent ways around the regulation, because I have no interest in towing a car with a motorhome), but on a quick read it looked to me as though the possibility of securing compliance - which it seems must be demonstrated and not merely asserted - looked very slender indeed. It seemed to me that if the "trailer" has ABS, and is towed by a vehicle also having ABS, not only the brakes, but also the ABS, must function in tandem with the towing vehicle's system. If that is the case, adapting a car's ABS to respond to braking demand from the towing vehicle would require the car to be towed with a fully charged vacuum reservoir, and with its ABS electronics live, and that, on a type approved vehicle, would appear to require interventions that would negate the TA status of the car. Insurance? Hmmmmmmmm! Dream on! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-03-30 1:47 PM There's a statement on MMM magazine's "Advertisers index" page that reads "...The views expressed by contributors are not necessarily those of the publishers. Every care is tajken to ensure that the contents of this magazine are accurate, but we assume no responsibility for any effect from errors or omissions." So, if A-frame suppliers advertise in MMM that their products are fully EU-legal now and in the future, it won't be MMM's fault if those claims prove to be incorrect. " SO, as MMM have an all inclusive get out clause with regard to the accuracy of advertising that they accept, I guess an E-mail/phone call to trading Standards and the Advertising standards Agency, would be the way forward, asking them to investigate the claims of the Advertisers for A-Frames Viz a Viz legality in Europe, with special attention to Spain and the fines imposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-03-31 9:10 AM but if it was tested in UK court and found legal (however unlikely that is) then under EU law you would be allowed to travel across Europe with one..eventually the men with guns would get the message No Eddie. As Bruce and Brian have been explaining, it's the ACTION, not the OBJECT that's illegal in Spain, and that isn't subject to any EU harmonisation. Laws about what people can or can't DO can be different in different countries (eg slow down to 50kph in French towns, even if no numerical speed limit applies, or switch on headlights all day in Denmark), and wherever we come from, we have to obey them. You can't speed through a French village with a red-bordered sign, and then plead "But we have numerical speed limit signs in England, so your system doesn't apply to me." This issue is one about DOING something, not about something EXISTING, so no amount of proven UK legality (if if there were such) would affect Spain's right to ban the PRACTICE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 If A Frames are illegal in Spain then thats all there is to it. We have not seen anyone towing other than with a proper trailer. If you break the law then face the consequences. We saw a Spanish Traffic cop pull over a Spanish car this morning for not getting back in lane quick enough. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-03-31 9:35 AM Q: That’s all well and good but how do I explain that in a foreign country? A: We supply all our customers with a CE certificate proving that our system meets all the laws. We also supply in English, Spanish, French and Portugese information on our towing system and how it complies with EU law. We have had vehicles stop for a spot check but no customer has been forced to remove their tow car or been fined. The authorities recognise a CE certificate as an official document." A certificate of conformity whilst it may be an official document is not a document that overrides or proves immunity from the law of a country, and i fail to realise how the supplying manufacturer thinks that showing the police a certificate indicating that the construction of a device comforms to the applicable standards would have any impact on the police and their decision. I think probably firearms are CE marked now but as far i know you would be in trouble if you used one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 What I find fascinating about the A-frame issue is the miraculous multi-lingual piece of paper provided by some UK A-frame manufacturers to buyers of their products. Apparently this can be presented to the police in any EU state the A-frame user happens to be visiting and - lo and behold - all legal objections or impediments immediately vanish. It's brilliant and reminds me of the religious indulgences that used to be a big thing centuries ago. Interestingly, when I GOOGLEd on "indulgences" I discovered that the subject was even more complicated than A-framing. However, as it seemed that appealling to suitable Patron Saints (plus, of course, vigorously waving the miraculous multi-lingual piece of paper) might be a useful tactic if stopped by a Spanish policeman, I checked which Patron Saints might be most appropriate. For A-framers visiting Spain, besides making sure you've got your Special Paper, I'm going to suggest a four-pronged prayer-based approach involving St Raphael (an Archangel and Patron Saint of Travellers), St Francis Xavier (Spanish Tourism), Ste Rita of Cascia (Desperate, Forgotten, Impossible or Lost Causes and Situations) and John the Baptist (Highways & Motorways). Obviously I can't guarantee this will always work, anymore (so it appears) than A-frame manufacturers can guarantee that the Special Paper will always persuade a Spanish policeman, but what have you got to lose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-03-31 3:46 PMWhat I find fascinating about the A-frame issue is the miraculous multi-lingual piece of paper provided by some UK A-frame manufacturers to buyers of their products. Apparently this can be presented to the police in any EU state the A-frame user happens to be visiting and - lo and behold - all legal objections or impediments immediately vanish. It's brilliant and reminds me of the religious indulgences that used to be a big thing centuries ago.Interestingly, when I GOOGLEd on "indulgences" I discovered that the subject was even more complicated than A-framing. However, as it seemed that appealling to suitable Patron Saints (plus, of course, vigorously waving the miraculous multi-lingual piece of paper) might be a useful tactic if stopped by a Spanish policeman, I checked which Patron Saints might be most appropriate. For A-framers visiting Spain, besides making sure you've got your Special Paper, I'm going to suggest a four-pronged prayer-based approach involving St Raphael (an Archangel and Patron Saint of Travellers), St Francis Xavier (Spanish Tourism), Ste Rita of Cascia (Desperate, Forgotten, Impossible or Lost Causes and Situations) and John the Baptist (Highways & Motorways). Obviously I can't guarantee this will always work, anymore (so it appears) than A-frame manufacturers can guarantee that the Special Paper will always persuade a Spanish policeman, but what have you got to lose?As Homer Simpson would say ooooh magic paper :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock312 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 hi,just returned again from long holiday in Spain,towing Reault clio on Aframe,i do this every year,never had any trouble with the cops ,i was inspected last year nr. Zaragoza by the cops who sent me on my way. this year i met two guys who had been stopped and fined 100euros,one that day.it seems the hard up Spaniards are now enforcing this stupid law which needs sorting out once and for all. its shortsighted because the average Brit probably spends 5k on a long winter break,inc ferry to Spain.and it will put people off. As for the comments on safety towing of an Aframe,all i can say is that i have over last 50 years i have town at least 10 caravans,exhibition trailers,closecoupled and single axles,yes i have had wobbles etc.and some scary moments. with my A frame i have towed a Kia Piccanto and a Renault clio approx 18000mls its so easy and in my opinion VERY safe,only prob is going up a oneway street!!!! my unit is a Cris Cox Aframe enertia braking, next year if i make it to Spain i wont tow,not worth the worry, :Dave Tee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 peacock312 - 2012-03-31 5:16 PM ...it seems the hard up Spaniards are now enforcing this stupid law which needs sorting out once and for all... You can hardly blame the Spanish police for enforcing a Spanish law that, based on what's previously been published on UK motorhome forums, seems to be unequivocally worded. It would certainly be beneficial to the EU motorcaravanning community (not just UKers) if the issue could be resolved satisfactorily, but that may well prove impossible. In any case, who is going to do the 'sorting out'? This has been going on for years and nobody - A-frame manufacturers or the A-frame user fraternity - has made any credible attempt to get to grips with the Spanish Problem. Now the Problem has begun to bite harder and (as far as I'm aware) there's still no indication that A-framers are prepared to take the initiative. It's only A-framers that are being fined in Spain and it's only A-framers that would benefit from the Spanish police acting differently regarding motorhome car-towing. If A-framers are not prepared to put in effort, it's unrealistic to expect motorhome clubs, magazines, MEPs, etc. to pick up the cudgels on the A-framers' behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 peacock312 - 2012-03-31 5:16 PM ,only prob is going up a oneway street!!!! my unit is a Cris Cox Aframe enertia braking,next year if i make it to Spain i wont tow,not worth the worry, :Dave TeeWhy is a one way street such a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 If I had bought one of the supposedly 'legal in Europe' A-Frames and got fined ... somehow I think I'd be taking the supplier who made the claim to the Small Claims Court!!! I wonder how long it will before someone does .... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 These indulgences worked well. They were used to build a local bridge in the 15th century. see http://www.staverton.com/staverton_bridge.html. Its still in use but not for MHs as there is a 6ft 6 in width restriction. Sorry for getting off track but its my kind of motorcaravanning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Correct link for George's bridge: http://www.staverton.com/staverton_bridge.html :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted April 1, 2012 Author Share Posted April 1, 2012 peacock312 - 2012-03-31 5:16 PM hi,just returned again from long holiday in Spain,towing Reault clio on Aframe,i do this every year,never had any trouble with the cops ,i was inspected last year nr. Zaragoza by the cops who sent me on my way. this year i met two guys who had been stopped and fined 100euros,one that day.it seems the hard up Spaniards are now enforcing this stupid law which needs sorting out once and for all. its shortsighted because the average Brit probably spends 5k on a long winter break,inc ferry to Spain.and it will put people off. As for the comments on safety towing of an Aframe,all i can say is that i have over last 50 years i have town at least 10 caravans,exhibition trailers,closecoupled and single axles,yes i have had wobbles etc.and some scary moments. with my A frame i have towed a Kia Piccanto and a Renault clio approx 18000mls its so easy and in my opinion VERY safe,only prob is going up a oneway street!!!! my unit is a Cris Cox Aframe enertia braking, next year if i make it to Spain i wont tow,not worth the worry, :Dave Tee Dave - for about the billionth time: it is NOT a law in Spain specifically against A-Frames. A-Frames are not mentioned in the Spanish road traffic law. They do not need to be. Because It has ALWAYS been illegal on any Spanish roads to tow one vehicle with another....by whatever means. That's the law in Spain. Always has been. I suggest that in the opinion of the vast majority of Spanish people, it's not a "stupid law" at all. It's simply a perfectly clear law. They use trailers to tow cars. No problems at all. And doing so means they can travel legally to all other European countries too, in happy accord with the differing national road traffic laws of each of those countries. All that's really happened is that there is a "stupid law" about this in the UK - that is muddy, and thus has been exploited by A-frame suppliers there. All that has been happening in your case is that you have been breaking that law every time you "a-framed" on Spanish roads, but have not been fined and told to obey the law from then on by a Spanish law enforcement officer. You have so far got away with breaking the road traffic laws of that country. Fair enough. Your choice, and your risk of prosecution. If I decide to exceed the speed limit on a UK road, I'm not at risk of being caught and fined because of the vehicle that I'm in, but because of what I'm doing with it in contravention of the national laws of that country. A-frames are NOT illegal in Spain (and France and Portugal, etc). But using one to two one vehicle with another vehicle on any public highway is illegal. Just as towing one vehicle with another via a tow rope, or steel hawser, or any other method is illegal. Get the wheels of the towed vehicle off the road, via the use of a proper trailer (subject to all the normal legal requirements of trailer design and use) and you're completely legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Dr Dave - 2012-03-31 6:43 PM peacock312 - 2012-03-31 5:16 PM ,only prob is going up a oneway street!!!! my unit is a Cris Cox Aframe enertia braking,next year if i make it to Spain i wont tow,not worth the worry, :Dave TeeWhy is a one way street such a problem? I would have thought the primary potential challenge with towing a car on an inertia-braked A-frame comes if faced with having to reverse up a steepish slope. Even if you can keep the car straight, so that its front wheels don't start to 'caster', the inertia-braking system is going to tend to jam the car's brakes on as the motorhome pushes back against the A-frame. This is why braked caravans/trailers have a system that automatically disengages the brakes when the caravan/trailer is reversed. Of course, in the above scenario, the driver could rapidly disconnect the cable that operates the towed car's brakes, but presumably that would then convert the car from a 'braked trailer' (that just MIGHT be legal under UK law) into an 'unbraked trailer' that definitely would be illegal. I believe that it's illegal in the UK to carry humans in a trailer, but I'm sure animals can be transported - so perhaps one could carry a few sled-dogs in the towed car. The dogs could quickly be attached to the car's rear bumper and would run up the hill taking the weight of the vehicle off the inertia-coupling so that the car's brakes did not come on. Seems a simple and obvious solution to the reversing problem and I'm surprised that UK A-frame manufacturers marketing inertia-braked systems haven't provided a couple of huskies as part of the package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-01 10:13 AMDr Dave - 2012-03-31 6:43 PMpeacock312 - 2012-03-31 5:16 PM ,only prob is going up a oneway street!!!! my unit is a Cris Cox Aframe enertia braking,next year if i make it to Spain i wont tow,not worth the worry, :Dave TeeWhy is a one way street such a problem?I would have thought the primary potential challenge with towing a car on an inertia-braked A-frame comes if faced with having to reverse up a steepish slope. Even if you can keep the car straight, so that its front wheels don't start to 'caster', the inertia-braking system is going to tend to jam the car's brakes on as the motorhome pushes back against the A-frame. This is why braked caravans/trailers have a system that automatically disengages the brakes when the caravan/trailer is reversed. Of course, in the above scenario, the driver could rapidly disconnect the cable that operates the towed car's brakes, but presumably that would then convert the car from a 'braked trailer' (that just MIGHT be legal under UK law) into an 'unbraked trailer' that definitely would be illegal. I believe that it's illegal in the UK to carry humans in a trailer, but I'm sure animals can be transported - so perhaps one could carry a few sled-dogs in the towed car. The dogs could quickly be attached to the car's rear bumper and would run up the hill taking the weight of the vehicle off the inertia-coupling so that the car's brakes did not come on. Seems a simple and obvious solution to the reversing problem and I'm surprised that UK A-frame manufacturers marketing inertia-braked systems haven't provided a couple of huskies as part of the package.It really is time the 'A' Frame manufacturers got there act together and supplied a harmonisation pack. Of course this would include the scripture of 'magic' paper which provides immunity from the law, then of course as Derek says a pack of husky's or a shire horse to assist in reversing 'by relieving' overrun brake issues, perhaps a prayer mat so they can ask for absolution of their sin of towing illegally, and a hot line to the designer so they can try to explain in Spanish to the police over the phone that there product is in their opinion exempt from the law that he is trying to enforce. Or even better if they are so sure that the product they make is legal a pre-paid visa card so that the fine can be paid directly by the manufacturer without the inconvenience of the user having to pay. The sooner users of 'A' frames realise they are on thin ice in the UK and no ice in Spain the better, they are simply breaking the law of the country and as such will eventually be caught and fined even if they have towed in this fashion for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I wonder how many Germans tell British police that they are entitled to drive at well over 100 mph on a motorway because it is allowed in Germany? Do you suppose their argument is successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-01 10:13 AM I would have thought the primary potential challenge with towing a car on an inertia-braked A-frame comes if faced with having to reverse up a steepish slope. Even if you can keep the car straight, so that its front wheels don't start to 'caster', the inertia-braking system is going to tend to jam the car's brakes on as the motorhome pushes back against the A-frame. This is why braked caravans/trailers have a system that automatically disengages the brakes when the caravan/trailer is reversed. Of course, in the above scenario, the driver could rapidly disconnect the cable that operates the towed car's brakes, but presumably that would then convert the car from a 'braked trailer' (that just MIGHT be legal under UK law) into an 'unbraked trailer' that definitely would be illegal. Don't new A frames have auto reverse brakes? if not they would be illegal in UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Well put Tony. Perhaps now the rest will get it, but don't hold your breath. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 colin - 2012-04-01 9:24 PM Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-01 10:13 AM I would have thought the primary potential challenge with towing a car on an inertia-braked A-frame comes if faced with having to reverse up a steepish slope. Even if you can keep the car straight, so that its front wheels don't start to 'caster', the inertia-braking system is going to tend to jam the car's brakes on as the motorhome pushes back against the A-frame. This is why braked caravans/trailers have a system that automatically disengages the brakes when the caravan/trailer is reversed. Of course, in the above scenario, the driver could rapidly disconnect the cable that operates the towed car's brakes, but presumably that would then convert the car from a 'braked trailer' (that just MIGHT be legal under UK law) into an 'unbraked trailer' that definitely would be illegal. Don't new A frames have auto reverse brakes? if not they would be illegal in UK. The brakes of caravans and trailers that use an inertia-braking (overrun) system are designed to disengage whenthe caravan/trailer is reversed. The brakes of cars (that are not designed to be towed) do not. It is possible to obtain A-frame-based car-towing systems that do not employ inertia-braking and these operate the car's brakes only when the car is moving forwards. But most A-frame systems being marketed now (and marketed in the past) just use inertia-braking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Lee Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 We have been towing a Honda Jazz on an A-frame for many years. Our first Jazz had a Car-A-Tow system which we couldn't reverse, and our new one has a Towbars2Towcars system which we can, just. We use an A-frame rather than a trailer because we cannot physically manage a trailer, have nowhere to put it, and have insufficient capacity on the rear axle of our motorhome to take the noseweight. We have just spent our second winter in Spain and although we have been closely inspected by Traficos travelling alongside us on the motorway and have passed several roadside spot checks, we have never been stopped. However, we are extremely concerned about the situation in Spain and have decided that next year we will not use our A-frame. We will either drive the car separately, or not take it at all and hire one when we get there (long term hire is not prohibitive, and certainly better than a big fine). And it's not just the fine, as others before me have pointed out, it's the insurance situation too. If it's illegal in Spain, then we are probably not insured. We have no argument with either of our towbar suppliers. We were fully aware of the situation in Spain when the second one was fitted, but Spain is only one country and we can live with that. What we do find very annoying is that we have spent a lot of money on an excellent system which we believe to be very safe. On our journey home this year, we passed on the motorway a Spanish car towing an ancient and wobbly trailer with a flat tyre which had left large chunks all over the carriageway and was continuing unabated. We also followed a flatbed truck with a wreck of an old Landrover on the back with flat tyres all round. This vehicle was not tied down in an way and had obviously slid across the flatbed and was now diagonal and leaning at a precarious angle. We felt it imprudent to try to overtake. These scenes are common, yet our state of the art A-frame is not allowed - and yes, I know it is not the A-frame itself, it's the towing of the car that is illegal. But there again, why should the Spanish change their law just to allow a few Brits to do their own thing! When in Rome .... and all that ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Rowan, be prepared for about 1/2 Dozen 'Anti-A-Framers' to 'Jump on you' , they don't seem to be concerned about 'safety' only legality, I think we folk who consider them a 'safe' way of taking a small car on our travels are 'Pixxing into the wind' on this forum. (and in Spain evidently). *-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-04-02 12:38 PM ....................................' , they don't seem to be concerned about 'safety' only legality, Ray Although, to be fair, the subject of the thread IS about legality, not safety. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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