BGD Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-04 5:29 PM Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-04 9:54 AM malc d - 2012-04-03 10:54 PM jhorsf - 2012-04-03 10:39 PM When is a car a trailer? in the uk when it is towed on an aframe that seems to be the only argument in Spain Why DO people keep mentioning the UK ? In Spain it is illegal to tow a vehicle that has its' wheels on the ground - regardless of what it is being towed with. :-( The argument used by UK A-frame suppliers (and by many UK A-frame users) is that, if A-frame towing is deemed to be a legal practice in the UK, then the practice MUST also be legal in ALL other EU states. It's absolutely critical that this argument is understood, as it's the only potential defence a UK motorcaravanner can realistically offer if prosecuted outside the UK for A-frame towing. The argument insists that, despite Spain having a national law banning one motor vehicle from towing another, this national law does not apply to visiting UK A-framers because A-frame towing is deemed to be legal in the UK. If that argument is flawed, then UK motorcaravanners A-framing outside the UK will be wide open to prosecution in Spain or in any EU state that has a national 'no towing' law similar to Spain's. If the argument has legal weight, then it MIGHT be acceptable as a defence if prosecuted for A-framing in Spain, or at least to claim a refund of a fine retrospectively. I'm not in any way suggesting that the argument has credibility: I'm just saying that this is the argument that's used and it has always been at the very root of the A-framing-abroad legality controversy. I put it as clearly as possible and still no one seems to understand, it becomes a trailer when using an aframe under UK law, not a vehicle, that is your only defence, people have had the fines returned in the past when they have fought this I believe http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml Is there, d'ya think, the teeny-weeniest possibility that everyone else has been trying to put it as clearly as possible, and still you don't seem to understand? Your link, upon which I assume you are relying for your argument, is NOT UK law at all. It is NOT a judicial interpretation of UK law. It is not even legal "Opinion" from a Barrister. It is simply the personal opinion of one UK Civil Servant, at a particular point in time, with reference to what COULD or MIGHT be the conclusion of a Judge in a UK court IF asked to decide on legality under current UK road traffic law and regulation. I'll repeat: that IS NOT law in the UK. The UK legal situation remains completely "grey" because the regulations were framed long before A-frames were thought up, and thus never covered them (either to include or exclude them). I'd have thought it better for UK A-frame enthusiasts to get together and bring a test case in a UK court with the power to set legal precedent ( the High court or Crown court), to settle the matter within their own UK law, before instructing other countries that they must all change their own domestic laws in favour of an activity whose legality (or illegality) is moot even within the UK. But maybe those A-framers (users and makers) are really too worried about what the legal outcome of such a test case would be to start one............you'll need to find a totally blind judge methinks, if you are going to have any real chance of seriously convincing him that bolting a bracket to your car stops it being a car, when it's C & U homologation says car, it was manufactured as a car, it's taxed as a car, it's registered as a car, it has seats and an engine and a steering wheel and all the other characteristics of a car, and it's used as a car at all times other than when it's got that bracket bolted to its front bumper. My advice would be: Sort out the legal situation in the UK. Then and only then can you really start trying to convince any other countries to change their long-standing, much clearer, laws so that you don't break them when towing your car-with-a-metal-bracket, on their roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Maybe what we need are two separate threads. Keep this one, which is about Spanish laws on towing ( in Spain ), and start another separate one about the use of A-frames in the UK, which is clearly ( to most people) a totally different subject. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 BGD - 2012-04-04 5:52 PM jhorsf - 2012-04-04 5:29 PM Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-04 9:54 AM malc d - 2012-04-03 10:54 PM jhorsf - 2012-04-03 10:39 PM When is a car a trailer? in the uk when it is towed on an aframe that seems to be the only argument in Spain Why DO people keep mentioning the UK ? In Spain it is illegal to tow a vehicle that has its' wheels on the ground - regardless of what it is being towed with. :-( The argument used by UK A-frame suppliers (and by many UK A-frame users) is that, if A-frame towing is deemed to be a legal practice in the UK, then the practice MUST also be legal in ALL other EU states. It's absolutely critical that this argument is understood, as it's the only potential defence a UK motorcaravanner can realistically offer if prosecuted outside the UK for A-frame towing. The argument insists that, despite Spain having a national law banning one motor vehicle from towing another, this national law does not apply to visiting UK A-framers because A-frame towing is deemed to be legal in the UK. If that argument is flawed, then UK motorcaravanners A-framing outside the UK will be wide open to prosecution in Spain or in any EU state that has a national 'no towing' law similar to Spain's. If the argument has legal weight, then it MIGHT be acceptable as a defence if prosecuted for A-framing in Spain, or at least to claim a refund of a fine retrospectively. I'm not in any way suggesting that the argument has credibility: I'm just saying that this is the argument that's used and it has always been at the very root of the A-framing-abroad legality controversy. I put it as clearly as possible and still no one seems to understand, it becomes a trailer when using an aframe under UK law, not a vehicle, that is your only defence, people have had the fines returned in the past when they have fought this I believe http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml Is there, d'ya think, the teeny-weeniest possibility that everyone else has been trying to put it as clearly as possible, and still you don't seem to understand? Your link, upon which I assume you are relying for your argument, is NOT UK law at all. It is NOT a judicial interpretation of UK law. It is not even legal "Opinion" from a Barrister. It is simply the personal opinion of one UK Civil Servant, at a particular point in time, with reference to what COULD or MIGHT be the conclusion of a Judge in a UK court IF asked to decide on legality under current UK road traffic law and regulation. I'll repeat: that IS NOT law in the UK. The UK legal situation remains completely "grey" because the regulations were framed long before A-frames were thought up, and thus never covered them (either to include or exclude them). I'd have thought it better for UK A-frame enthusiasts to get together and bring a test case in a UK court with the power to set legal precedent ( the High court or Crown court), to settle the matter within their own UK law, before instructing other countries that they must all change their own domestic laws in favour of an activity whose legality (or illegality) is moot even within the UK. But maybe those A-framers (users and makers) are really too worried about what the legal outcome of such a test case would be to start one............you'll need to find a totally blind judge methinks, if you are going to have any real chance of seriously convincing him that bolting a bracket to your car stops it being a car, when it's C & U homologation says car, it was manufactured as a car, it's taxed as a car, it's registered as a car, it has seats and an engine and a steering wheel and all the other characteristics of a car, and it's used as a car at all times other than when it's got that bracket bolted to its front bumper. My advice would be: Sort out the legal situation in the UK. Then and only then can you really start trying to convince any other countries to change their long-standing, much clearer, laws so that you don't break them when towing your car-with-a-metal-bracket, on their roads. I will try once more http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285 this is what it says or perhaps I am wrong about this also? Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer. If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer. In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply. Now I do not know what part of this you find hard to understand I did not say it was or was not legal in Spain I said in the UK its classed as a trailer at the moment please read the link I did not make it up I also said this was your only defence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-04 8:33 PM BGD - 2012-04-04 5:52 PM jhorsf - 2012-04-04 5:29 PM Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-04 9:54 AM malc d - 2012-04-03 10:54 PM jhorsf - 2012-04-03 10:39 PM When is a car a trailer? in the uk when it is towed on an aframe that seems to be the only argument in Spain Why DO people keep mentioning the UK ? In Spain it is illegal to tow a vehicle that has its' wheels on the ground - regardless of what it is being towed with. :-( The argument used by UK A-frame suppliers (and by many UK A-frame users) is that, if A-frame towing is deemed to be a legal practice in the UK, then the practice MUST also be legal in ALL other EU states. It's absolutely critical that this argument is understood, as it's the only potential defence a UK motorcaravanner can realistically offer if prosecuted outside the UK for A-frame towing. The argument insists that, despite Spain having a national law banning one motor vehicle from towing another, this national law does not apply to visiting UK A-framers because A-frame towing is deemed to be legal in the UK. If that argument is flawed, then UK motorcaravanners A-framing outside the UK will be wide open to prosecution in Spain or in any EU state that has a national 'no towing' law similar to Spain's. If the argument has legal weight, then it MIGHT be acceptable as a defence if prosecuted for A-framing in Spain, or at least to claim a refund of a fine retrospectively. I'm not in any way suggesting that the argument has credibility: I'm just saying that this is the argument that's used and it has always been at the very root of the A-framing-abroad legality controversy. I put it as clearly as possible and still no one seems to understand, it becomes a trailer when using an aframe under UK law, not a vehicle, that is your only defence, people have had the fines returned in the past when they have fought this I believe http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml Is there, d'ya think, the teeny-weeniest possibility that everyone else has been trying to put it as clearly as possible, and still you don't seem to understand? Your link, upon which I assume you are relying for your argument, is NOT UK law at all. It is NOT a judicial interpretation of UK law. It is not even legal "Opinion" from a Barrister. It is simply the personal opinion of one UK Civil Servant, at a particular point in time, with reference to what COULD or MIGHT be the conclusion of a Judge in a UK court IF asked to decide on legality under current UK road traffic law and regulation. I'll repeat: that IS NOT law in the UK. The UK legal situation remains completely "grey" because the regulations were framed long before A-frames were thought up, and thus never covered them (either to include or exclude them). I'd have thought it better for UK A-frame enthusiasts to get together and bring a test case in a UK court with the power to set legal precedent ( the High court or Crown court), to settle the matter within their own UK law, before instructing other countries that they must all change their own domestic laws in favour of an activity whose legality (or illegality) is moot even within the UK. But maybe those A-framers (users and makers) are really too worried about what the legal outcome of such a test case would be to start one............you'll need to find a totally blind judge methinks, if you are going to have any real chance of seriously convincing him that bolting a bracket to your car stops it being a car, when it's C & U homologation says car, it was manufactured as a car, it's taxed as a car, it's registered as a car, it has seats and an engine and a steering wheel and all the other characteristics of a car, and it's used as a car at all times other than when it's got that bracket bolted to its front bumper. My advice would be: Sort out the legal situation in the UK. Then and only then can you really start trying to convince any other countries to change their long-standing, much clearer, laws so that you don't break them when towing your car-with-a-metal-bracket, on their roads. I will try once more http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285 this is what it says or perhaps I am wrong about this also? Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer. If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer. In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply. Now I do not know what part of this you find hard to understand I did not say it was or was not legal in Spain I said in the UK its classed as a trailer at the moment please read the link I did not make it up I also said this was your only defence Once again, all you have done is to copy and paste a Civil Servants idea on what a Judge might say. It has never been tested in UK law. Nobody knows which way such a test case would go. UK law is moot, and remains moot. Until an A-frame user or manufacturer takes a test case, or is taken to court in a test case, we could go round this for decades. I give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 just fine em!!! they might get the law/message then!! jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 So taking your argument the gov info page is not law as it has not been tested in court where is your Spanish tested in court law?This is just some Spanish civil servants interpretation of the law then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 silverback - 2012-04-04 11:09 PM just fine em!!! they might get the law/message then!! jon What message is that ,Pray ? that they are illegal in EU land, although the reason for them being illegal is not explained ? certainly NOT for being unsafe, as in the USA hundreds of cars/SUV's are towed on A-Frames every day, without masses of accidents being attributed to the practise. WE, luckily are not part of mainland europe (heaven forbid !) and tend to base our laws on firmer reasons than just 'it's illegal, no one knows why'. And for the folk that say we ARE part of the EU, we might be, but until there is a referendum on the question of the 'Union' ? as far as i'm concerned all i voted for was the 'Common market' nothing else. and eagerly await my time in the polling booth on the subject. We in the UK eagerly await the first 'Test case' of an A-Frame being deemed illegal on Uk roads. I might even have a 'Whip around' for the 'Accused' to raise a few bob for a decent defending barrister. 8-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-04-04 11:25 PM We in the UK eagerly await the first 'Test case' of an A-Frame being deemed illegal on Uk roads. I might even have a 'Whip around' for the 'Accused' to raise a few bob for a decent defending barrister. 8-) Ray Then go for it Ray...do it..you know you want to...! ;-) ..I'm sure we'll all look forward to your updates on how the case is going... (..after all,everyone wittering on about 'em on here and going around and around in circles, is acheiving nowt! *-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-04-04 11:25 PM ................ although the reason for them being illegal is not explained ? In Spain it IS explained. They're use ( in Spain ) is illegal because they are used to tow a vehicle on its' wheels, which is not allowed under Spanish law. Seems quite clear to me, although I can see why it's frustrating to anyone who would like to use one. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 From the post's on here it would appear to me: In the UK there is no law which says you can tow one car with another In the UK there is no law which says you can't tow one car with another In Spain their is a law which says you can't tow one car with another. Seems pretty clear to me. (lol) Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 when on an aframe its a trailer not a vehicle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-05 3:07 PM when on an aframe its a trailer not a vehicle It's not. It's patently not. We all know that it's not. It's a car, and all that's happened is that there's been an attempt made to camouflage it as a "trailer", by stretching the definition of "trailer" way beyond common sense. It just MIGHT be CONSIDERED so under the woolly, outdated UK C & U regs. Personally I really do doubt it unless you get a Judge with a white stick, but we'll all have to wait for a Court decision to settle the matter in the UK. But there is utterly no way you'd convince a Court Judge in Spain (or frankly, almost any other country on the planet) that your car is magically not a car just because you've bolted a metal bracket on it's front end; and it transforms back into a car when you unbolt that bracket. The judiciary in just about every other country in the World operates differently to that in the UK. Elsewhere, they do not get bogged down in the exact literal meaning of every individual word in legislation and regulation, but base their decision on what was MEANT; what was the INTENT of the lawmakers. A car is a vehicle. It is obviously a vehicle. You cannot tow one vehicle with another in Spain. Ergo you cannot legally use an A-frame to tow a vehicle in Spain. (Or Portugal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-05 3:07 PM when on an aframe its a trailer not a vehicle I doubt if the DVLA would see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 malc d - 2012-04-05 3:34 PM jhorsf - 2012-04-05 3:07 PM when on an aframe its a trailer not a vehicle I doubt if the DVLA would see it that way. oh please read things will you the gov.org tells you that in the linkI will try once more http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285 this is what it says or perhaps I am wrong about this also? Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer. If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer. In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply. Now I do not know what part of this you find hard to understand I did not say it was or was not legal in Spain I said in the UK its classed as a trailer at the moment please read the link I did not make it up I also said this was your only defence http://www.smart-tow.com/docs/vienna.pdf please read the definition of when its a trailer in LAW and you are wrong the rest of EU goes into great detail about the law if your to lazy to read the law go to part 1 q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-05 3:42 PM malc d - 2012-04-05 3:34 PM jhorsf - 2012-04-05 3:07 PM when on an aframe its a trailer not a vehicle I doubt if the DVLA would see it that way. oh please read things will you the gov.org tells you that in the linkI will try once more http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285 this is what it says or perhaps I am wrong about this also? Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer. If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer. In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply. Now I do not know what part of this you find hard to understand I did not say it was or was not legal in Spain I said in the UK its classed as a trailer at the moment please read the link I did not make it up I also said this was your only defence http://www.smart-tow.com/docs/vienna.pdf please read the definition of when its a trailer in LAW and you are wrong the rest of EU goes into great detail about the law if your to lazy to read the law go to part 1 q I admit I am too lazy ( i.e. not interested enough ) to read all through those links, but I agree that the UK Gov site does say that " the car plus the A-frame counts as a trailer" so I understand where you are coming from. So. as I thought, the car on its' own, is never considered to be a trailer. We are simply interpreting things differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 jhorsf .... All very convincing,I'm sure.. *-) ..So away you go then,off to Spain,clutching your photocopy of the appropriate line,"cherry picked" from the "uk.gov" website..Goodluck with that...!(lol) From your second link,I would also assume then,that as Smart-tow(or another A frame manufacturer who feel the same way),are truly convinced that their product (and it's usage!),if perfectly legal in both the UK and on the Continent(inc' Spain!)they wouldn't hesitate to fully support and even help to fund, any legal appeal,should the need arise......?....no?.... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 taken from the Vienna convention on road traffic docs for the EU “Trailer” means any vehicle designed to be drawn by a power-driven vehicle and includes semi-trailers; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-05 4:12 PM taken from the Vienna convention on road traffic docs for the EU “Trailer” means any vehicle designed to be drawn by a power-driven vehicle and includes semi-trailers; Likewise, the Convention on Road Traffic, part 1 para (P) says: " Motor vehicle " means any power driven vehicle which is normally used for carrying persons or goods " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 http://www.smart-tow.com/legal.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-05 3:42 PM malc d - 2012-04-05 3:34 PM jhorsf - 2012-04-05 3:07 PM when on an aframe its a trailer not a vehicle I doubt if the DVLA would see it that way. oh please read things will you the gov.org tells you that in the linkI will try once more http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285 this is what it says or perhaps I am wrong about this also? Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer. If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer. In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply. Now I do not know what part of this you find hard to understand I did not say it was or was not legal in Spain I said in the UK its classed as a trailer at the moment please read the link I did not make it up I also said this was your only defence http://www.smart-tow.com/docs/vienna.pdf please read the definition of when its a trailer in LAW and you are wrong the rest of EU goes into great detail about the law if your to lazy to read the law go to part 1 q Interesting. This is rather like standing in a boat that is sinking and yet still blasting holes in its bottom with your shotgun. You are trying to squeeze A-Framing into Part 1q whilst completely ignoring that it falls within Part 1p. I find that very surprising. Part 1q defines a "trailer" to be "any vehicle designed to be drawn by a power-driven vehicle" Seems to me that the key word is "designed". Cars were not "designed" to be drawn by a power-drive vehicle, they were/are designed to be driven under their own propulsion. They clearly come under Part 1p as motor vehicles: " Motor vehicle" means any power driven vehicle which is normally used for carrying persons or goods " Thus under this convention a car on tow cannot possibly be a "trailer" just because a bracket is bolted to it's bumper; it is still a "power driven vehicle which is normally used for carrying persons or goods", and thus it remains a "motor vehicle" that is being towed; and is subject to the rules governing motor vehicles being towed, NOT trailers. Also, even more pertinent to our debate here is Article 3 of that old Convention; which allows signatory Countries to include additional provisions not included in Chapter II: "1. (a) Contracting Parties shall take appropriate measures to ensure that the rules of the road in force in their territories conform in substance to the provisions of Chapter II of this Convention. Provided that the said rules are in no way incompatible with the said provisions: (i) The said rules need not reproduce any of the said provisions which are applicable to situations that do not arise in the territories of the Contracting Parties in question; (ii) The said rules may include provisions not contained in the said Chapter II." This specifically gives any signatory country the right to introduce (or keep) in their own national Road Traffic laws, a provision banning (for example) the towing of one vehicle vehicle with another vehicle. Just what they've done in Spain. And Portugal. And France I believe. And possibly in Germany? Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 malc d - 2012-04-05 9:17 AM Rayjsj - 2012-04-04 11:25 PM ................ although the reason for them being illegal is not explained ? In Spain it IS explained. They're use ( in Spain ) is illegal because they are used to tow a vehicle on its' wheels, which is not allowed under Spanish law. Seems quite clear to me, although I can see why it's frustrating to anyone who would like to use one. :-| No explanation of WHY it is not allowed, that is what I am looking for, For instance, It has been proved that a vehicle towing another is dangerous, usually uses unsafe metods ie. Rope, a Bar, and places the towing and towed vehicle outside their design parameters. = Therefore illegal. Would be enough. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-03-30 5:35 PM A correctly homogolated, crash tested, British Road transport approved, A-Frame would be more difficult to ban 'Europe wide'. Would it not ? To be honest I doubt it, my experience has been that while all EU countries pay lip service to following EU standards etc. in practice many of them don't, in Eastern Europe there are many Brussels decrees which just never get implemented at ground level despite what the national government say. As mentioned above Spain is in a terrible financial crisis, they can't devalue (Which used to be the classic way out) so they need every penny (sorry Euro) they can get. Hence the fines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Well jhorsf & others, can have their day in the Spanish Court after they have been given their fine, submitting all their support documents listed in this thread. Hope they have deep pockets, as I suspect they will get little support from the A Frame manufacturers. I think A-frame users should be thankful that they have enjoyed immunity in the past, but now need to accept times have changed & move on to fresh pastures where the problem currently doesn't apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 flicka - 2012-04-05 10:55 PM Well jhorsf & others, can have their day in the Spanish Court after they have been given their fine, submitting all their support documents listed in this thread. Hope they have deep pockets, as I suspect they will get little support from the A Frame manufacturers. I think A-frame users should be thankful that they have enjoyed immunity in the past, but now need to accept times have changed & move on to fresh pastures where the problem currently doesn't apply. OR GO TO CARAVANING!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-04 11:11 PM So taking your argument the gov info page is not law as it has not been tested in court where is your Spanish tested in court law?This is just some Spanish civil servants interpretation of the law then I think you are confusing common law with statute law. Common law, generally, deems what is not prohibited under statute, or has not previously been tried and found against in court, to be permissible. So, in UK, as there is no statutory prohibition, and no court precedent, against A-frames, they are deemed legal. However, the Spanish prohibition on towing a vehicle is Spanish statute law, and Bruce has previously posted the text in Spanish and English to assist understanding. So, the Spanish prohibition is in black and white, whereas in the UK all we have is the continuing acceptance of a practise until such time as it is banned under statute, or the principle is tried in court and found against. At present, in the absence of any law or precedent, we can happily carry on A-framing, but that is the product of the historic accident that is our legal system. This concept does not generally apply outside the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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