I have been fined for towing a car

[w1ntersun]

I have started another thread because the other one has gone way off line.

 

I am on my way home from Conil de la frontera. Two days ago I was stopped by the traffico just south of Salamance heading northbound. The very nice policeman who spoke perfect english told me it was illegal to tow a car in Spain. He said he did not want to fine us but I was reported by a speed trap camera who radioed ahead. The fine was 40euro discounted from 80euro for paying on the spot. He told me we could stay hooked up and to show the official ticket ( I have one now ) to avoid another fine as we were on our way home.

 

My details were entered into his computer for future reference both campervan and towed car. The official fine after ignoring warnings is 200 Euro.

 

Whist his partner was entering these details we spoke a lot about holidays etc and feeling he was ok asked him about the sheet of paper from towtal with a fine re-embursed and the translation of trailer regulations.

 

His reply was this so please note. The a-frame is not illegal as such but the fact I am towing a car on its wheels is. So all the bulls**t about meeting trailer regs is out of the window as others have said before me. He did not want to fine me but as I was reported by a zealous speed trap operator ( I was not speeding ) he had no choice.

 

To conclude I have been passed by police who ignored me ( perhaps sympathetic ) A car can only me towed by a grua ( breakdown truck ). The fine amounts above are correct all others I would take with a pinch of salt.

 

All the above facts can be verified and if you tow in Spain you may be fined or be lucky

 

Richard

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I have no vested interest in this issue but to say it's pretty clear it IS illegal so why does anyone beef about it, just don't do it or accept the consequences if you don't, how clear does it have to be. :-S

[BGD]

Sorry to hear about what happened. If it's any consolation, it sounds as though you got off relatively lightly, with only a 40 euro fine and no requirement to unhitch there and then.

 

 

Just to be clear, for other people: no-one is saying that you physically CANNOT use an A-frame to tow on Spanish and Portuguese roads.

All we are saying is that if you do, you are breaking the law in those countries, and there is a rapidly increasing risk of being stopped, fined, and forced to unhitch and continue with the tow vehicles being driven independently.

 

Just like with speeding, it's your decision whether or not to obey these laws; but it's also your risk of being hit with the consequences if you choose to break them.

 

 

 

 

Anyone know of some UK car-trailer manufacturers to invest in..................

 

 

[casey]

BGD

do you ever feel like you are banging your head off a brick wall ?

for a long time now i have been reading these threads on a frames

and you have consistantly proven that it is illegal to tow a car in spain

with 4 wheels on the ground. then you get these numpties who have

also been on this forum long enough to know what is lawful and what is not

bleating about being fined ! and then telling us what you have been saying

for ages. I`m in spain at the moment and have not seen many a framers

but there are one or two who like to take the chance.

casey.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Hmmm?...240 odd views and only 3 replies...I guess that some STILL don't like being faced with "first hand" accounts... ;-)

[malc d]

To be fair to W1intersun ( Richard ), he doesn't seem to me to be complaining ( or ' bleating' ) about the fact that he got fined - he is simply telling us what happened, and why.

 

A first hand account like that is very useful to anyone who is still in any doubt about what is, and is not legal about towing in Spain.

 

 

 

(Although just why anyone else on the forum still doesn't understand this Spanish law, is beyond me !)

 

;-)

[Guest ChrisB]

pepe63 - 2012-04-05 9:20 AM

 

Hmmm?...240 odd views and only 3 replies...I guess that some STILL don't like being faced with "first hand" accounts... ;-)

 

No.

I think you will find that the majority of members like myself feel that this topic (in its numerous guises and threads) has been done to death and has run its course.

Only the stalwarts or those with an axe to grind will bother to reply (whoops - does that include me? ;-) )

I now plan to ignore any thread with "A-frame" in the title.

Boring ........

[Derek Uzzell]

BGD - 2012-04-04 6:02 PM

 

Sorry to hear about what happened. If it's any consolation, it sounds as though you got off relatively lightly, with only a 40 euro fine and no requirement to unhitch there and then.

 

 

Just to be clear, for other people: no-one is saying that you physically CANNOT use an A-frame to tow on Spanish and Portuguese roads.

All we are saying is that if you do, you are breaking the law in those countries, and there is a rapidly increasing risk of being stopped, fined, and forced to unhitch and continue with the tow vehicles being driven independently.

 

Just like with speeding, it's your decision whether or not to obey these laws; but it's also your risk of being hit with the consequences if you choose to break them.

 

 

 

 

Anyone know of some UK car-trailer manufacturers to invest in..................

 

 

BGD

 

As you are on a run with A-frame-related threads, I still think it would be very useful if you can try to establish from your local friendly Spanish police what the 'going rate' is for the fine for the A-framing offence. You are in a unique position to do this and it's definitely odd that there is (apparently) such a huge variation in the fines being applied.

 

(I also think it's weird that someone who has been fined for committing an offence like A-framing in Spain can be given a chit allowing them to continue to commit the offence with impunity.)

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-05 11:30 AM

 

BGD - 2012-04-04 6:02 PM

 

Sorry to hear about what happened. If it's any consolation, it sounds as though you got off relatively lightly, with only a 40 euro fine and no requirement to unhitch there and then.

 

 

Just to be clear, for other people: no-one is saying that you physically CANNOT use an A-frame to tow on Spanish and Portuguese roads.

All we are saying is that if you do, you are breaking the law in those countries, and there is a rapidly increasing risk of being stopped, fined, and forced to unhitch and continue with the tow vehicles being driven independently.

 

Just like with speeding, it's your decision whether or not to obey these laws; but it's also your risk of being hit with the consequences if you choose to break them.

 

 

 

 

Anyone know of some UK car-trailer manufacturers to invest in..................

 

 

BGD

 

As you are on a run with A-frame-related threads, I still think it would be very useful if you can try to establish from your local friendly Spanish police what the 'going rate' is for the fine for the A-framing offence. You are in a unique position to do this and it's definitely odd that there is (apparently) such a huge variation in the fines being applied.

 

(I also think it's weird that someone who has been fined for committing an offence like A-framing in Spain can be given a chit allowing them to continue to commit the offence with impunity.)

 

Derek, who the hell cares. The situation is plain enough and anyone stupid enough to do this fully deserves all they get whatever the fine. It has always been my own opinion that to tow anything with a m/h is pretty daft anyway, buy a caravan, but thats another subject I guess.

[tugga]

Derek, could it possibly be that OP was on his way home and not too far from the border? That would make sense to me.

 

I know a man on his way to Spain, currently in France, who is towing his VW Golf on an A Frame and is convinced he wont be stopped! There is always one . . .

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2012-04-05 11:50 AM

 

Derek, who the hell cares. The situation is plain enough and anyone stupid enough to do this fully deserves all they get whatever the fine. It has always been my own opinion that to tow anything with a m/h is pretty daft anyway, buy a caravan, but thats another subject I guess.

 

I'm just curious about the variation in the fines.

 

BGD lives in Spain and has taken a helpful interest in advising this forum on the Spanish A-framing issue. If I lived in Spain I'd research the fining variation myself but, as I don't, I would hope that BGD will go that extra kilometre and look into the matter on my (and other curious forum members') behalf.

 

Basically, I'm asking BGD to do a little proactive work in the hope that it will satisfy my curiosity. If this proves difficult, or he chooses not to do this, then I shall be disappointed though not heart-broken. If he is able to obtain a credible explanation, then I shall be pleased.

 

What other people do, or want to do, generally doesn't concern me provided that it doesn't impact on me adversely. I've always understood the rationale behind motorhome A-framing and, although I don't want to do it myself, I can fully appreciate why many motorcaravanners find the practice attractive and advantageous to their leisure lifestyle.

 

If you aren't intrigued by why on-the-spot fines being quoted by UK A-framers vary so dramatically, that's of no interest to me - but I'd like to know and BGD seems to be the obvious person to try to find out.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-05 3:26 PM

 

rupert123 - 2012-04-05 11:50 AM

 

Derek, who the hell cares. The situation is plain enough and anyone stupid enough to do this fully deserves all they get whatever the fine. It has always been my own opinion that to tow anything with a m/h is pretty daft anyway, buy a caravan, but thats another subject I guess.

 

I'm just curious about the variation in the fines.

 

BGD lives in Spain and has taken a helpful interest in advising this forum on the Spanish A-framing issue. If I lived in Spain I'd research the fining variation myself but, as I don't, I would hope that BGD will go that extra kilometre and look into the matter on my (and other curious forum members') behalf.

 

Basically, I'm asking BGD to do a little proactive work in the hope that it will satisfy my curiosity. If this proves difficult, or he chooses not to do this, then I shall be disappointed though not heart-broken. If he is able to obtain a credible explanation, then I shall be pleased.

 

What other people do, or want to do, generally doesn't concern me provided that it doesn't impact on me adversely. I've always understood the rationale behind motorhome A-framing and, although I don't want to do it myself, I can fully appreciate why many motorcaravanners find the practice attractive and advantageous to their leisure lifestyle.

 

If you aren't intrigued by why on-the-spot fines being quoted by UK A-framers vary so dramatically, that's of no interest to me - but I'd like to know and BGD seems to be the obvious person to try to find out.

 

All fair enough Derek, though if you understand the rationale behind towing with a motorhome do tell, it is completely beyond me. Like you I care less what ohers do but am curious.

[jhorsf]

the fines go into some of the bent Spanish police's pockets we all know that

[BGD]

jhorsf - 2012-04-05 3:33 PM

 

the fines go into some of the bent Spanish police's pockets we all know that

 

 

 

Of course you do.

[jhorsf]

What you can be sure of is its not allowed if you tow a vehicle with another vehicle and you are a resident of Spain with Spanish plates.But just like if you have no British MOT or tax but are road legal in your own country you are allowed on the road in the UK different laws apply

[BGD]

Some background which may help Derek et al:-

 

Spain is a Federal country, much more like the USA than the UK.

It's legal system is nothing like that of the UK, where almost everything is decided by Central Government.

 

The Federal State of Spain is made up of 17 semi-autonomous regions.

These regions have very much more autonomy than (say) the English counties. They are broadly similar to individual States within the USA.

 

 

 

Now, with regard to Traffic laws here, as I understand it, the scale of fines for exceeding the speed limits are set Nationally, by the DGT (Directorate General de Trafico, part of the Home Office)......the Spanish equivalent I guess of the UK Department of Transport.

The current speeding fines structure, which is Federal, and thus applies right across Spain, is here:

https://sede.dgt.gob.es/SEDE/documentos/multas/cuadro_velocidad_1.pdf

 

So, from the chart you can see that if nicked for doing between 121 and 150 kmph on any motorway ( where the maximum speed limit is 120 kmph), anywhere in Spain, you can expect an on-the-spot fine ("multa") of 100 euros, but not to have any points taken off your licence.

 

 

 

But with regard to almost all other Traffic-law breaches, the amount of the fine levied is NOT a decision for the central Federal Government, but is set by the Government of the Region concerned.

This is similar to the system in the USA, where individual States set their own speed limits, and also set their own fining structures.

 

What I think most Semi-Autonomous Governments have done is to set a Maximum and Minimum "multa" for each offence, empowered the Police Officer to use his discretion within that range, given the individual circumstances of the case; and also established a discount amount (usually expressed as a percentage) for immediate payment of the fine.

In all cases there is an appeals process to the local or regional authorities that can be followed, but you have to pay the fine, then appeal.

 

 

 

I'm afraid that because of all these variations, I cannot advise on what you might get fined.

 

The law which has always said that you cannot tow one vehicle with another is a Federal one, ie it applies all across Spain.

But what you'll get fined for being caught breaking that Federal law will I think depend upon which of the 17 regions you're nicked in...................it depends on that Regional Governments Max and Min fines for illegal vehicle towing, on the Police Officers assessment of where your individual offence ranks within that range, and upon what percentage discount that Regional Government offers for immediate payment.

 

 

[laimeduck]

I have to say that I feel very sorry for those who have in the past invested in an A-Frame. It seemed to me to be an ideal way of pulling a car around. I was considering one for towing my 2CV.

 

But that was then.

 

Now we know that it is illegal to use one to tow a car in Spain & Portugal. So you can't go to those countries & use an A Frame.

 

The regulations in France appear hazy as maybe elsewhere in Europe, so it's quite possible you could be stopped. I would also say that it's quite on the cards that the UK will tow the line (pun intended) with other European countries.

 

So I repeat, I feel quite sorry for those who did invest in an A Frame.

 

I have no sympathy what-so-ever with those who still buy an A Frame, or with those who now knowingly go out & flout the laws in other countries by using them. You deserve whatever fines are thrown at you.

 

 

[trooper]

Hi Derek it is in fact quite normal in England to be allowed to carry on after a technical offence.

Years ago I was stopped in a traffic check in a works vehicle, this had some serious defects(not mine).

I was given a ticket and was allowed to continue to the company yard and then to repairers only.

Only the dangerous were not allowed to carry on.

 

 

 

 

 

[bob b]

[

Derek, who the hell cares. The situation is plain enough and anyone stupid enough to do this fully deserves all they get whatever the fine. It has always been my own opinion that to tow anything with a m/h is pretty daft anyway, buy a caravan, but thats another subject I guess.

Did you ever get that motorcycle trailer you were thinking of buying Rupert?

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

bob b - 2012-04-05 5:58 PM

[

Derek, who the hell cares. The situation is plain enough and anyone stupid enough to do this fully deserves all they get whatever the fine. It has always been my own opinion that to tow anything with a m/h is pretty daft anyway, buy a caravan. I have a friend who always tows a smart car behind his 60K Motorhome, say's he does it to be able to go off in the car once the motorhome is parked up on a site. I did once say to him that's exactly what tuggers do, and you could have a fabulous caravan and a much nicer car to drive around in for the same or considerably less investment plus save the hassle of two motorised vehicles to maintain and tax, but my comment was not well received. Mind you he did seem stumped for an explanation, or simply chose not to give one, I'm not sure which.

[trooper]

It's stupid to make a statement saying buy a caravan.

I had around 20years with large caravans and around11years with a M/H.

I have the choice of taking just my M/H, or tow our smart on the trailer,all according to we're we are

Going and what we want to see and how long in 1place.

Big difference is. The towing vehicle is many times heavier the the towed, without the camera I would not know I was towing, exept on hills.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I guess it does depend on your usage, but as said my friend without exception heads for a site or sites, parks the van up, then goes of in his smart car. Sorry but that does seem a little odd to me, I'd much sooner have the full time usage of my van on days out, mind you I only have a PVC that lends itself to going anywhere, so access is not an issue, unlike my friends rather large vehicle.

 

I guess in light of Spanish laws he'll have to ditch his A frame now though.

[Losos]

malc d - 2012-04-05 11:06 AM(Although just why anyone else on the forum still doesn't understand this Spanish law, is beyond me !) ;-)

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!!! or in the case of this never ending saga perhaps that old saying should refer to donkeys !!!

 

[Derek Uzzell]

trooper - 2012-04-05 5:36 PM

 

Hi Derek it is in fact quite normal in England to be allowed to carry on after a technical offence.

Years ago I was stopped in a traffic check in a works vehicle, this had some serious defects(not mine).

I was given a ticket and was allowed to continue to the company yard and then to repairers only.

Only the dangerous were not allowed to carry on.

 

I understand what you are saying. I believe that there is an official 'working aid' to assist the UK police as to what constitutes a road-traffic offence, what should be considered a viable defence, and what the recommended response should be when a particular offence is identified by the police officer. I've certainly be let off with a warning for driving offences that I could have been prosecuted for.

 

However, the Spanish towing offence is a mite different to, say, having a vehicle's brake-light bulb not operative. It's an illegal practice (like drink-driving) not a 'technical' offence (ike a failed bulb) and I think it's peculiar that a Spanish policeman should, effectively, authorise the continuance of an illegal practice after fining the practicer. If a Spanish policeman caught me speeding, I would expect an on-the-spot fine, but I would not expect a chit that would permit me to continue speeding with impunity. If I were caught A-framing in Spain, I'd expect a fine, insistance that I separate car from motohome and, if I were discovered a kllometre or two away repeating the illegal practice by towing the car again, another larger fine. Just seems odd to me...

 

BGD's explanation of how Spanish regional road-traffic regulations can be policed, with fines being on a discretionary basis within a defined range is intriguing, but there's a massive difference between the (undiscounted) €500 fine mentioned on another forum thread and the (undiscounted) €80 fine applied in Richard's (w1ntersun's) case. Richard refers to a €200 maximum fine for repeated A-frame offences, so it may be that this has some relevance to the €500 fine. Dunno, but if the Spanish police start fining lots of UK A-framers big bucks, at least it should concentrate the minds of the UK A-framing community regarding the Spanish Problem.

 

jhorsf seems to be suggesting (I think!) that, if a 'foreign' driver with a 'foreign' car temporarily visits the UK and (obviously) the vehicle has no UK MOT or UK road tax, this could somehow make that vehicle illegal in this country and this 'illegality' is being ignored. However, there are EU-wide harmonisation agreements that cover such eventualities, so there's no basic conflict and no potential illegality.

 

There is nothing to suggest that (unlike the Spanish warning-triangle regulation) the Spanish towing law that causes UK A-framers to be fined has any Spanish-residents-only or Spanish-registered-vehicles-only implications. It's a straightforward law that applies to all vehicles being driven in Spain. The argument persistently put forward by certain UK A-frame manufacturers, and by many UK A-framers, is that the EU 'harmonisation' principle applies to the A-frame towing practice, so the Spanish towing law does not apply to visiting A-framers from EU states that legally authorise A-framing.

 

As far as I'm aware there is no EU state that legally authorises A-framing, though there are probably plenty of EU states that have no specific national laws forbidding it. A-framing is tolerated by the authorities in the UK, but there are no UK legal regulations specifically approving the practice. The practice exploits UK trailer-related regulations that, in spirit, should not be expected to apply to towing a fully-functional car. If an EU state could be identified that specifically defined and legally authorised A-framing, then it MIGHT be possible test the legality of the Spanish law's application to an A-framer from that EU state A-framing in Spain. But the UK is not such an EU state.

[rupert123]

bob b - 2012-04-05 5:58 PM

[

Derek, who the hell cares. The situation is plain enough and anyone stupid enough to do this fully deserves all they get whatever the fine. It has always been my own opinion that to tow anything with a m/h is pretty daft anyway, buy a caravan, but thats another subject I guess.

Did you ever get that motorcycle trailer you were thinking of buying Rupert?

Think your memory is playing tricks. I have always carried a scooter on a rack and thought about an Easytrail which is a fixed device that can be reversed as normal and not a trailor with all it problems. No did not bother anyway will stick with my rack.