BGD Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Is A-Framing in the UK legal or illegal? Discuss................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnerontheroad Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 BGD - 2012-04-04 8:01 PM Is A-Framing in the UK legal or illegal? Discuss................. Who care's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Now this should be a good thread three armies the 'A' framer's regiment the car on a trailer fusiliers and the who cares brigade. I personally think they are illegal as the law stands (even though a good idea) because you are not allowed to store fuel in anything other than a motor vehicle fuel tank, two 10 litre metal containers or two 5 litre plastic containers so if the car being towed has magically changed from a car to a trailer and it is no longer a motor vehicle (as the manufacturers argue) you cannot have any fuel stored in it. and of course all the other arguments that are to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnP Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 To date I don't think there has been a test case in the court's involving "A" Frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 If it complies with the trailer regulations it's legal. As for not being able to carry fuel, why is it that caravans can carry fuel, gas that is, and yes it is a fuel. Also what about fuel bowsers that farmers/ fishing boats etc use to cart fuel about, not forgeting fuel tankers with an articulated trailer. That's shot that theory out of the water then. :D Over to you Derek and Brian. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Doesn't anybody else think this topic has been done to death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 peter - 2012-04-04 8:45 PMIf it complies with the trailer regulations it's legal.As for not being able to carry fuel, why is it that caravans can carry fuel, gas that is, and yes it is a fuel.Also what about fuel bowsers that farmers/ fishing boats etc use to cart fuel about, not forgeting fuel tankers with an articulated trailer. That's shot that theory out of the water then. :DOver to you Derek and Brian. :D PeterAgreed gas is a fuel but the regulations are quite specific regarding petrol diesel and its storage / transport by private individuals. I would assume petrol tankers, bowser's etc are specifically designed and approved for the task and are not merely bolted onto the towing vehicle by an 'A' frame and are insured for the transport of petrol/diesel (note i have avoided fuel as my description) I assume that now an 'A' frame has been attached to a car (sorry trailer) it has now become a type approved petrol/diesel tanker however small its capacity. Don't forget these small technical issues are the ones that when a test case comes to court that a highly paid barrister may use against the 'A' frame so as far as shooting a theory out of the water i don't know if it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnerontheroad Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Mike B. - 2012-04-04 9:05 PM Doesn't anybody else think this topic has been done to death? Yes, It needs an "A frame Forum" for those who can talk for ever with no answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer. If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer. In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 jhorsf - 2012-04-04 9:44 PMTowing a car using an A-frame or dollyIf you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer.In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply.http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285[/quote] Just so no one thinks the Direct.gov website and its contents are to be relied upon in law its terms and conditions include the following.In no event will We be liable for any expense, loss or damage including, without limitation, indirect or consequential loss or damage, or any expense, loss or damage whatsoever arising from use, or loss of use, of data, or loss of profits, arising out of or in connection with the use of www.direct.gov.uk, or reliance on its content.That's a get out of everything clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Mike B. - 2012-04-04 9:05 PM Doesn't anybody else think this topic has been done to death? By the time this lot have finished going round in circles we'll all be on Zimmer Frames, never mind A Frames! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 BGD - 2012-04-04 8:01 PM Is A-Framing in the UK legal or illegal? Discuss................. LOL who cares!! as been said! just become a TUGGA !! jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 silverback - 2012-04-04 11:07 PM LOL who cares!! as been said! just become a TUGGA !! jon I don't care about the legality of A frames I just do not understand the logic of towing a car behind a Motorhome. Having been a tugger for over 20 years there is no way I would ever go back to towing anything. As Jon say become a tugger problem solved. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 BGD - 2012-04-04 8:01 PM Is A-Framing in the UK legal or illegal? Discuss................. Good idea - I dunno why this hasn't been talked about before. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopesy Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/300683703152?clk_rvr_id=329944672259 How about this?? Think I'll stick to the trailer B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 malc d - 2012-04-05 9:44 AM BGD - 2012-04-04 8:01 PM Is A-Framing in the UK legal or illegal? Discuss................. Good idea - I dunno why this hasn't been talked about before. :-| ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 laimeduck - 2012-04-04 11:04 PM Mike B. - 2012-04-04 9:05 PM Doesn't anybody else think this topic has been done to death? By the time this lot have finished going round in circles we'll all be on Zimmer Frames, never mind A Frames! :-( Love it! :-D As you say-going round and round in ever decreasing circles until we disappear up our own A*** Frames! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Mike B. - 2012-04-05 10:30 AM laimeduck - 2012-04-04 11:04 PM Mike B. - 2012-04-04 9:05 PM Doesn't anybody else think this topic has been done to death? By the time this lot have finished going round in circles we'll all be on Zimmer Frames, never mind A Frames! :-( Love it! :-D As you say-going round and round in ever decreasing circles until we disappear up our own A*** Frames! ;-) A bit off-topic I know but - Does anyone know if zimmer frames can be used in Spain ? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Hopesy - 2012-04-05 9:57 AM http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/300683703152?clk_rvr_id=329944672259 How about this?? Think I'll stick to the trailer B-) The Goldwing looks well safe!!! :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilf Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 BGD - 2012-04-04 8:01 PM Is A-Framing in the UK legal or illegal? Discuss................. Bruce Why is it that all the treads criticising A-frames have been started by you? Do you have some king of axe to grind on the subject or do you get a weird kick out of the replies that are posted? Bruce get a life!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 OK, imagine that I’ve added a tow-bar to my motorhome and had a little car converted so that it can be towed via an inertia-braked A-frame system provided by a specialist UK manufacturer. To side-step potential arguments about Type Approval and the like, I’ve chosen a lightweight kit-car from the 1960s that pre-dates Type Approval. This (notional) car has big non-power-assisted brakes that are unquestionably capable of providing the braking performance stipulated by UK trailer regulations if the car’s brake-pedal is pulled on by an inertia-braking system's operating cable. I’ve had the car suitably wired up electrically and I’ve attached to the car a registration-plate that carries my motorhome’s registration-number. So is this motorhome + car combination legal in the UK? Well, I would suggest not simply because of the braking-while-reversing issue. This is touched on in the much-quoted Department for Transport advice document, saying “From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an “A” frame using an inertia (overrun) device.” It’s always been glaringly plain to me that the design of an A-frame using the inertia-braking principle (which is what most UK motorcaravanners have) is highly unlikely to allow that basic reversing requirement to be satisfactorily met. I discussed this once with a UK A-frame manufacturer who told me he’d asked the DofT to define what “sustained drag” meant and exactly what minimum distance in reverse the vehicle combination needed to cover to comply with UK trailer rules. He said that no definitive answer had been received from the DofT. I replied that these were pointless questions, as we both knew there were easily-envisaged situations where it would be impossible to reverse a car on an inertia-braked A-frame unless the braking link between the towing and towed vehicles were first disabled. He agreed this was true, but claimed that the UK regulatory authorities like the police and DofT had far more important things to concern themselves with than microscopically exploring the minutiae of UK trailer regulations. It has been regularly claimed on motorhome forums that it is possible, by very carefully adjusting the inertia-braking system of a traditional A-frame, to obtain satisfactory braking performance when the car is being towed forwards coupled to a reversing capability that is adequate for most driving scenarios. However, a caravan or braked-trailer can theoretically be reversed up any incline to be encountered on UK roads for any distance one cares to specify, but a car on an inertia-braked trailer cannot. I’d argue that, if an A-frame-towed car is agreed to be a “trailer” as far as UK regulations are concerned, then the car must display ALL the braking and reversibility capabilities of an ordinary trailer not just some of them. Cars on inertia-braked A-frames fail to do this. It’s no good seeking to cherry-pick those UK trailer regulations that A-frame systems comply with and conveniently ignore the show-stopping ones. I believe that, if the practice of towing a car on a common-or-garden inertia-braked A-frame were ‘tested’ in a UK court, the practice would not receive legal approval. I’m more confident that UK-marketed A-frame systems that don’t employ inertia-braking could gain legal approval, but not many people use those (yet). As it’s straightforward enough for UK motorcaravanners to obtain insurance for their motorhome + car combination; as (to the best of my knowledge) nobody has been prosecuted for A-frame towing in the UK; as nobody claims that the practice is inherently dangerous, and as UK regulatory authorities do indeed have far more important things to concern themselves with than UK motorhome A-framing small-print, it doesn’t really matter whether UK motorhome A-framing is ‘legal’ here or not. Obviously, if the plan is to try to use UK ‘legality’ to override other EU states’ national laws that forbid motorhome A-framing, that’s something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Wilf - 2012-04-05 11:17 AM BGD - 2012-04-04 8:01 PM Is A-Framing in the UK legal or illegal? Discuss................. Bruce Why is it that all the treads criticising A-frames have been started by you? I don't think anyone ( certainly not many ) have been criticising A- frames have they ? Surely it's all been about the legality of using them ? :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I don't care about the legality of A frames I just do not understand the logic of towing a car behind a Motorhome. Having been a tugger for over 20 years there is no way I would ever go back to towing anything.. (lol) Absolutely agree, never seen the point of it and will never be persuaded otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 A bit off-topic I know but - Does anyone know if zimmer frames can be used in Spain ? Love it :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 A bit off-topic I know but -Does anyone know if zimmer frames can be used in Spain ? :-| OK as long as you're not getting a tow of one of these..... http://www.nationwidemobility.co.uk/uploads/Pimp_my_scooter.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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