Trailers again

[Rosbotham]

eric hobson - 2012-04-27 1:43 PM

 

Hi, the more I read the more confused I become. I am at present looking at trailers having towed with an a-frame for a number of years. My motorhome has a GVW of 5000kg and a GTW of 6000kg, no problem towing my Corsa. Having visited a Brian James dealer I have been shown a trailer with a gross of 1300kg which will take the car. The weight of the trailer will result in me lowering the gross of the motorhome, no problem. I have then spoken to other dealers. Here is the take from one. If you have a GTW of 6000kg and a towing weight of 1000kg then that is the maximum you can tow. It is not possible to lower your GVW to increase your trailer weight. According to him my only option is a lighter car or to legally down grade the motorhome. He states he is quoting VOSA. Who is right? I feel like just continuing using the a-frame and sod the consequences.

 

Ah, but there's a subtly here. In terms of not exceeding the GTW, you can indeed have your motorhome loaded at less than 5000kg in order to have a trailer heavier than 1000kg. However, some motorhomes (e.g. many Autotrails) also have a maximum towing weight, caused by what the chassis {extensions} will take. So it's entirely possible that on these, having an underloaded motorhome won't help any. It's pretty obvious if you look at the first and final stage VIN plates because the GTW magically reduces.

 

What hasn't been mentioned on this thread so far is noseweight. It would be well worth your while loading your Corsa onto that Brian James trailer and measuring the noseweight. I know when I had my Fiat 500 (diesel so heavier engine) on a similar trailer, I struggled to get the noseweight anything below 100kg, and even at that the car was teetering on the brink at the back - when pulled fully forward it was at 120kg...not good.

[flicka]

Ramsbottom

Could you reverse the Car onto the trailer to shift the weight off the nose ?

 

I don't know if it's practical or feasible, just asking. :-S

[Rosbotham]

*Possibly* : I don't know....but given how high it was when driven on forwards, I worked on the basis that this would likely end up with negative noseweight.

[Rosbotham]

{duplicate}

[Guest pelmetman]

pelmetman - 2012-04-26 4:04 PM

 

Andy_C - 2012-04-26 3:21 PM

 

Trailer legislation is certainly a bit of a minefield.

 

VOSA say that it is acceptable to use a trailer with a plated gross weight which would take it over the gross train weight of its towing vehicle, so long as the load carried does not cause the actual weight of the combination to exceed the gross train weight.

 

See: http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox%20Guide%20low%20res.pdf page 18

 

AndyC

 

Thanks for the link ;-)....................I've sent them an email asking if what I have heard is true, I'll post any reply :D

 

VOSA replied which didn't clear things up much.........still not sure whether they will fine you if your plaited weights are higher than your actual weight? :-S

 

Thank you for your email enquiry dated 26th April 2012, concerning a trailer.

 

Unfortunately, VOSA don't deal with the towing of small trailers. This would be something that you would need to address to the DVLA. Please find their contact details below:

 

Follow link for email details: www.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla

Telephone: 0300 790 6802 for small trailer queries.

 

However, VOSA used to publish an information leaflet entitled 'Quick guide to towing small trailers'. I have attached a link through to this leaflet

below:

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Quick%20guide%20to%20towing%20small%20trailers.pdf

 

I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

 

Kind Regards

 

Rebecca

Customer Service Centre

VOSA Operations Directorate

Tel: 0300 123 9000

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Incidentally, there's nothing novel about your 'energy pod' trailer idea. If you GOOGLE on "remorque solaire" you'll find plenty of (French) examples.

[Guest pelmetman]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-05-04 7:46 AM

 

Incidentally, there's nothing novel about your 'energy pod' trailer idea. If you GOOGLE on "remorque solaire" you'll find plenty of (French) examples.

 

That's reassurng Derek........It must be fesable then?........seems like a good solar~lution for those of us with limited payload ;-)

[eric hobson]

I am still awaiting a reply from VOSA. I have spoken to Autotrail who say that if they include a maximum towing weight in their handbook it will become mandatory and they are not prepared to do so, although apparently Swift do this. As I stated earlier DVLA verbally said I would be ok. I also spoke to alko who said there was no mechanical reason their extension could not tow beyond 1000kg but it was up to the individual converter to publish the figures. I then spoke to a nice gentleman from the towing and trailer association ( may not have got the title exact but it,s on government website), he said it is permissable to tow a trailer above the motorhome vin plate weight providing the GTW is below the plated limits. He said he had an e-mail from VOSA to that effect but finished the conversation by saying " unfortunately there are some at VOSA who haven,t yet grasped this " For me this means that although my plated weights are 5000kg and 6000kg I wil be running at 4650kg and 1200kg total GTW 5850kg. He also stated that if stopped and the plate weights are quoted I should ask to go to a weighbridge. I will be carrying a current weight ticket on the travel out but not 6 months later on return. I at least have received a common sense answer from one body but it still appears to be amazingly complex. Sorry if this appears a long drawn out post.

[Brian Kirby]

eric hobson - 2012-05-04 1:27 PM

 

I am still awaiting a reply from VOSA. I have spoken to Autotrail who say that if they include a maximum towing weight in their handbook it will become mandatory and they are not prepared to do so, although apparently Swift do this. As I stated earlier DVLA verbally said I would be ok. I also spoke to alko who said there was no mechanical reason their extension could not tow beyond 1000kg but it was up to the individual converter to publish the figures. I then spoke to a nice gentleman from the towing and trailer association ( may not have got the title exact but it,s on government website), he said it is permissible to tow a trailer above the motorhome vin plate weight providing the GTW is below the plated limits. He said he had an e-mail from VOSA to that effect but finished the conversation by saying " unfortunately there are some at VOSA who haven,t yet grasped this " For me this means that although my plated weights are 5000kg and 6000kg I wil be running at 4650kg and 1200kg total GTW 5850kg. He also stated that if stopped and the plate weights are quoted I should ask to go to a weighbridge. I will be carrying a current weight ticket on the travel out but not 6 months later on return. I at least have received a common sense answer from one body but it still appears to be amazingly complex. Sorry if this appears a long drawn out post.

Eric

 

I don't think there is really much confusion or complexity. The gross train weight of a vehicle is established by its manufacturer. It is simply the maximum weight at which it can reliably re-start on a test hill. Can't remember the gradient, but that is irrelevant to this issue.

 

The "train" is the vehicle plus its trailer, and it is their combined actual weights that count. This is basically what you are being told by the trailer manufacturers, and is what I have understood from caravan towing. Providing your train weighs no more than the plated GTW your train is legal, irrespective of the plated weights of both trailer and tow vehicle (always providing neither is individually overloaded).

 

Some at VOSA may not "get it" but, in terms of established custom and practise, they are wrong.

 

However, that is what is the rule in the UK. Outside the UK, generally, I believe it will be the plated weights that count. So, if the plated MAM of the trailer, plus the plated MAM of the tow vehicle, exceed the plated GTW, an offence is committed under whichever countries law is transgressed.

 

AFAIK, the rule that a vehicle that is legal in its country of registration must be accepted as legal in any other signature country it enters does not apply in this case, because it is not the legality of the vehicles that is in question, it is national interpretation of the meaning of Gross Train Weight. So, what is legal in UK, is not automatically legal in, for example, France. Are you likely to be challenged? IMO, only if you are very unlucky: possibly at a roadside weight check if you encounter one. What would be the penalty? Don't know, you'd unfortunately have to check with the embassies of all countries through you would travel.

[takeaflight]

RE "VOSA"

 

I got pulled on the M6 for checking by Vosa, because I was towing a box trailer with a 4x4, which in their eyes is a multi purpose vehicle (Commercial) and because I was capable of exceeding 3.5 tons, also I admitted that it was for business. I discovered I should have a had tacho fitted.

 

I was given a prohibition notice that allowed my 7 days to get off the road.

 

However to the point of the post, I brought up A Frames behind motorhomes !!

 

He made no comment only that he tows a grass track mini on a dolly because the tyres are not road legal.

 

When I said that I thought this to be illegal, he gave me a funny look, I took the paperwork, thanked him and went on my way.

 

Nice pleasant guy. ( he also said avoiding motorways and sticking to country lanes, the chances of getting caught are extremely slim)

 

Roy

[eric hobson]

Sorry Brian, but the complexity arises because some VOSA personnel do not understand the legislation and neither do the trailer manufacturers ( 2 major suppliers quote different scenarios ). Also you state the law in other European countries is different so another complexity. I am moving from A-frame to trailer for peace of mind but appear to be shelling out a load of cash to end up in the same position. This is obviously more grist to the mill for the anti-towing brigade. All I ask is a finite answer and a level playing field throughout Europe.