Europe travel

[ST8]

Hi, looking to buy a motorhome to travel through Europe for a year or so. Planning on visiting the 2013 Tour De France then on into Italy, Spain, Portugal and back into Spain whereby looking to live permanently.

I understand that there is a restriction of 6 months (notibly in Spain) whereby you have to register a foreign vehicle in the country. Can anyone explain how this works and if I re-enter Spain after having been in just under 6 months does the time limit restart again. Also I assume I would have to treturn to the UK to get a UK MOT if I went for longer than a year?

 

I am looking at purchasing an Autocruise Starblazer as have bikes and kitesurfing kit to store. Anyone have any useful experience or knowledge of these or similar makes with a large garage with a budget of £20- £25k. Or would i be better off purchasing a left hand drive foreign vehicle and if so where would be best to get these from?

 

Thanks

[Randonneur]

I think that it is very difficult if not nigh impossible to register a "Foreign" motorhome in Spain. Bruce (BGD) is the one to ask, maybe he will see this and post a reply.

[Guest JudgeMental]

LHD makes far more sense, and with the £ so strong against the € (at the moment*-)) its a no brainer IMO...Have a look on www. mobile.de for 1000's of vans, or you get a good few German vans on ebay, but prices may be more.....

 

Also German TUV test (equivalent to our MOT) is every two years and Germany not as far to go for test.....

[Brian Kirby]

ST8 - 2012-05-15 3:39 PM..............I am looking at purchasing an Autocruise Starblazer as have bikes and kitesurfing kit to store. Anyone have any useful experience or knowledge of these or similar makes with a large garage with a budget of £20- £25k. Or would i be better off purchasing a left hand drive foreign vehicle and if so where would be best to get these from?

 

Thanks

If you are planning on keeping the van after you move to Spain, I'd say you are looking at the wrong van. Nothing against the make or model, but it will be unrepresented (or very poorly represented indeed) on the Spanish market, so anything that needs doing on the habitation part will probably involve returning the van to UK. I'd add that getting RHD van mechanicals repaired in Spain may involve delays as RHD bits will not be commonly available.

 

So, as Eddie has said, I'd be inclined to go for a LHD van import, register it in UK with minimal necessary mods to meet UK registration requirements, keep anything that has to be replaced, and then re-register in Spain in due course using the original parts where necessary for right hand traffic. You could buy from France or Germany, rather then trying to buy from Spain.

 

Might be a good idea to look at Benimar vans, as they are made in Spain (but available through most of Europe including UK), but other mainland LHD vans are quite widely available in Spain, so parts and service should be relatively straightforward whatever you get - providing it is not RHD and/or UK made!

[Guest JudgeMental]

Simon, is your intention to live in the van once you settle in Spain? as lots of people do this in vans and caravans...I just returned yesterday from a 6 week trip to Spain and many I spoke to have lived there for many years on campsites, 10 - 16 year..whatever, its not uncommon.

 

I would go for a proper fully winterised van..something like a Hymer B class. better insulated and cheaper to heat in winter + good living space.

[BGD]

Welcome on board Simon.

 

We live inland Costa Blanca in Spain. Have done for getting on for 10 years now. We chug all over mainland Europe in our ancient old-dog of a 1992 A-class Autostar motorhome.

 

Some thoughts:

 

You can only drive a UK registered vehicle in Spain for up to 6 months. Throughout that period it must remain as legal in it's home country, ie it must continue to have current UK MOT and UK road fund licence.

 

Within or at the end of the 6 months, to remain legal, you must transfer that vehicle onto Spanish matriculacion (plates).

You can choose not to do that. But beware.

If you are stopped more than once by any of the random Spanish Guardia or Polica Local checks, you will likely be heavily fined, and have the vehicle siezed...because as of this year they now keep national records on computer of previous "stops".

They have REALLY clamped down on this in the past couple of years, which is why there are now thousands of old, untaxed and un-MOT'd UK plated cars going for utter peanuts here, as Brits try to offload them.

Long overdue frankly, as if you are driving illegally here then any insurance you may think you have WILL NOT PAY OUT when they find out that you didn't have MOT or Road Fund licence...as there is an implied term in every such insurance contract that you will will maintain the vehicle in a roadworthy condition, which includes keeping it legal. Thus any accident you might be responsible for could end up costing you personally hundreds of thousands of pounds if you injured other people.

Really not worth the risk in my judgement.

 

But, and here's the bugger, motorhomes are classed as commercial vehicles in Spain.

Importing a secondhand private car from UK to Spain is somewhat complex, but achievable with the help of one of the specialist companies who do it for you here. Costs vary depending upon age/type of car, and it's Spanish " book" value, but might be perhaps a couple of thousand euros all in.

But for a commercial vehicle it is a whole different ball game.

For starters, if the vehicle is over 10 years old, you cannot do it. Period. it simply is not allowed to import any commercial vehicle over 10 years of age onto Spanish plates.

Also, if you cannot see backwards through THREE mirrors ( ie if in addition to your wing mirrors you haven't got a rear window through which you can see with a mirror mounted above your windscreen), then you will NOT be able to import your MH. A reversing camera instead doesn't cut it.

Habitation door not on the "Continental" side? Then you cannot import that MH into Spain.

Next, if you have not got the original homologation certificates ( in Spanish) for anything added to the external structure of the vehicle ( towbar, roof mounted sat dish, air-ride suspension etc etc) AND the certificate of competence from the Company who installed each such item, you can't import it unless all those items are permanently removed.

Then there's the utter reams of paperwork, engineers reports, technical inspections, and the monster commercial vehicle import tax bill you'd be facing...at a guess maybe 10k of costs altogether, and many months of administration nightmare. All in Spanish of course, as that is the language of our country here.

You're starting to get the picture I reckon. It really is not worth trying to import a secondhand motorhome into Spain.

 

If you are adamant that whatever you buy will have to trundle you all round Euope for a year or so, and then come and live with you in Spain thereafter, the most practical solution i can offer is to buy one in Spain, on Spanish plates, before you start your grand tour. the just return to Spain with it at the end.

It'll be Spanish registered; legal here, with distributor backup here; spares available here, insurable here ( including cover for rest of most of mainland Europe for some extra cost). You can get Europe-wide breakdown/recovery cover for it here in Spain.

 

There are loads of Dealers all over Spain, just Google for "autocaravana se vende" and start wading through. be aware that unless you can specify/get agreement to the contrary, the buyer is responsible for the transfer admin/fee...which can be pricey at 4% of official "book" price.

What you want is " transferencia incluido".

If you do go this route, you would need to obtain a "NIE" number in order to buy.....it's a sort of social security/ tax ID number.....but you'll need one of those anyway if coming to Spain to live. Not expensive to get, and you can now ( as of March 2012) get an Abogado ( lawyer) to obtain it for you on your behalf if you give them power of attorney.

You'd also need a Spanish address to register the vehicle to...but this can be the address of a friend/relative. You need to be aware that there's whilst there's no national Road Fund Licence here, there is a local town hall vehicle tax to pay each year. Price varies, as each town hall can set it's own scales, but it might be 100 euros. That bill goes to the registered address of the MH.

 

Third party insurance is not expensive, but fully comp here is VERY expensive. You can reckon on maybe €700 a year for all-risks fully comp on (say) €50k worth of motorhome.......although all insurance includes breakdown recovery here, so long as your MH is under 10 years old, and under 7 metres ( if not, then you'll have to take out separate cover, maybe another €150 per year).

 

The actual vehicle?

Highly unlikely to get one double-floored ("winterised") here, and highly unlikely to have an oven......for most of the year in the Med countries it's a question of trying to get cool, not warm and of cooking/eating outside the van.

"Capuchino" ( overcab bed) MH's are very popular over here - the overcab provides much needed shade for the windscreen.

Do not even go near a MH that hasn't got air conditioning here. Honestly. Just don't. You'll utterly fry in the summer months if trundling around the south of Europe.

Prices asked are a LOT more than the seller expects to get here. It's jut the way things are done. In the UK you might ask 5 or maybe even 10% more than realistically expecting to settle for. In Spain the gap is 25% or even more. So don't go in offering 39k for a van with a sticker price of 40k Start at maybe 32k, an then enjoy the ritual dance/arm waving/gnashing of teeth and eventually settle at 35k, with dealer paying the transferencia.

 

Be aware that there is no Sale of Goods Act in Spain. Unless the Dealer offers you a guarantee ( and do read ALL the small print, as it is likely only to cover damage caused by stampeding elephants), then the moment you pay and drive off the forecourt, it's your MH, and anything that goes wrong on it is your problem. There is the possiblity of a legal claim if the engine drops out after 5 minutes, but it'll take 4 years to get the damn thing into even thefirst layer of the Spanish court system.

 

In practice, it really is ALWAYS and TOTALLY "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware) in Spain.

NEVER EVER EVER part with ANY of your hard earned money at all; not even a deposit, until your are totally satisfied in every way about the condition and legality of any vehicle.

 

 

All Complicated stuff eh!

 

 

 

 

 

A less elegant, but likely cheaper route might be to buy in the UK, do your Grand tour, then sell it again in the UK; and only then move to Spain and only once you've settled in and understand the ins and outs of life here, then look to buy another in Spain.

In truth that's the way I'd definitely go.

 

 

Food for thought I hope.........

 

 

[Dave225]

A lot of good advice. However most seem to look at the motorhome part of it, which I fully accept is what you were asking. My comment is more on what you feel is the reasoning behind living permanently in Spain, especially in these rather strained times. Have you spent a lot of time there and are familar with the customs and language etc? I regret that the idea of 'buzzing off to the Costas' and living the high life have gone for most of us. Currently we are in Spain for our annual jaunts and the number of expats trying to get out is a bit depressing. One we talked to offered us a 3 bed villa with pool all detached in good area for £150K. He was fed up with finding a new tax bill on his door mat every time he came home. Plus anothre example is the Spanish wish to tax all prescriptions for expat pensioners at 10-20% of the cost. They wil also no longer give you medical treatment unless you can show you are a bona fide tourist, or a registered citizen.

 

My suggestion would be to get a UK van, enjoy yourt trip, although do not stay more than 6 months and this is in any 1 year. Leaving to go to France for 1 day does not restart the clock as many are finding out the hard way. If you then still decide to move permanently then rent in a chosen place for at least 1 year before ever thinking of buying. Sell the van in the Uk and then decide what your ptions are. If you have a villa you may feel the van is not so essential as the sun and pool are on your doorstep, so to speak.

 

Remember the Spanish economy is having a very hard time and they are looking at all and any ways to get revenues, a bit like the UK come to think of it.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Dear OK dear Brucy baby....if that dont put the poor bloke of I dont know what will.:D

 

Many I spoke to on my recent trip stayed well clear of taking out permanent residence, and if the above is anything to go by I'm not surprised!

 

There was I thinking the French where a country of bureaucrats!lol Many UK citizens live in Spain long term and have nothing to do with officialdom *-) many not speaking more then a word or two of Spanish...and they are probably among the first to criticise immigrants who do likewise in The UK. Seriously I spoke to a couple living there 16 years and not a word...astonishing stuff:-D

 

I mean if the Pelmet can take lessors anyone can! :D

 

 

edit: Just read Daves wise contribution...You would have to be seriously deranged to want to buy property in Spain, I mean would you buy a house in Greece..come on just think about it for 10 seconds :-D

[ST8]

Thanks everyone for your input really appreciated.

Lots to think about.

So it seems the longest I can stay in Spain for in a UK motorhome is 6 months even if I say go to Portugal for 3 months or so then back to Spain (I assume if I have been stopped at any time in Spain by the Police). If I don't get stopped then I assume all is ok however this is a big risk.

 

I have lived and worked in Spain previously but that was 10 years ago and under the easy set up of working for a UK travel company so all was taken care of. I did have a NIE number then but assume it has now expired? So I would need to re register and get a new one?

 

The idea of the Motorhome initially was so that we could travel France for about 2 months then Italy for 2 or 3 then into Spain whereby visit all the areas and see what opportunities came up as well as doing a month or so intensive Spanish course with a language school. I wanted to take my bikes and kitesurfing kit as keen to do lots of this and quiet frankly am always cold in the UK.

My partner, Nina, was going to do a TEFL course before we go away to give the option of teaching English. She already has an English degree as well as a Masters in Journalism, neither being used at the moment. We would probably initially rent once we had done the travelling so the motor home would only be for weekends or days away so would really no longer be required.

When i lived in Spain previously I loved it but lacked the integration into Spanish living as was always with English so in some way protected.

Property is cheaper and the Euro at the moment is getting stronger and cost of living if you live simply is cheaper than the UK. This was the appeal of buying in Spain.

 

Hopefully I have replied to everyone as new to this forum set up but really appreciate you taking the time to reply and I welcome your comments on the extra information I have provided to assist you.

 

Many thanks

 

PS I suppose by travelling through all these countries being less than 6 months in each would be OK and returning to the UK within a year to sell the motorhome. However £20-25K for a year and then possibly struggling to sell it after is a lot of money to tie up...

 

 

[ST8]

PPS Does anyone know if the 6 month time limit in Spain for a UK MH is the same in France, Italy and Portugal?

Thanks again.

[Guest JudgeMental]

You would be better of renting*-) You can rent an apartment for the same price as a pitch on a campsite............The weather is good enough for year around camping, and easy to pull up sticks and move on if you have a change of heart. Seriously I would not buy property...

 

The UK is one of the the only EU country's with border controls where you have to show a passport on entry and exit..So how Spanish authority's know you have been there longer then 6 months is beyond me I'm afraid.. Like I said earlier many UK citizens living there on campsires for 10-20 years 8-)

[Losos]

ST8 - 2012-05-16 9:17 PMand the Euro at the moment is getting stronger

 

I think you'll find that just this week things have changed and in my opinion the Euro will weaken against the pound for most of this year due to the Greek crisis which will also drag on into 2013 and may well end with them leaving the Euro and God only knows what will happen to exchange rates after that.

 

One good thing about having a RHD vehicle in Europe is that it's never going to be stolen, even the scumbags know they can't sell a RHD vehicle 'tho I concede there is still the possibility of theft for spare parts but I spend nine months a year in Europe and opted for a RHD vehicle for the security aspect.

 

[colin]

ST8 - 2012-05-16 8:57 PM

 

PPS Does anyone know if the 6 month time limit in Spain for a UK MH is the same in France, Italy and Portugal?

Thanks again.

 

I'm not 100% sure but I believe it applies to all europe.

[vindiboy]

Hi ST8, I really can't see your problem, I recently did a 7 Month tour of Europe, starting in France, Belgium,Germany, Holland, Bavaria, back into France, Spain and Portugal and then back to UK, ok not a year but I could have easily done a year  [ legally  ] if I chose to.I  do not want to live permanently in Spain so that is where we  differ, why not get  a suitable Motorhome , do a year tour as I have suggested ,resell the vehicle in the Country you buy it from, go to Spain and rent something [static Caravan or Apartment etc ] then decide if it is what you really want and then buy something permanent.Reading the previous post on here about  having permanent roots in Spain seem very unattractive to me.I know of six couples who have  bought land and built homes in Spain ,5 couples  have returned to UK with great losses and one couple remain and appear to be doing well.

[BGD]

ST8 - 2012-05-16 8:57 PM

 

PPS Does anyone know if the 6 month time limit in Spain for a UK MH is the same in France, Italy and Portugal?

Thanks again.

 

 

Yes it is.

This is basic stuff. You should know this. It is easily discoverable on the internet.

 

 

Can I respectfully suggest that you really need to start Googling things yourself, reading up on laws around Europe, and doing some factual research if you are serious about this.

If not, I fear you're gonna be easy meat for the rip-off merchants that lurk in bars all over the place, full of bar-room "expertise". And you are going to lose a shedload of money.

 

I didn't realise that you were thinking of moving over to Spain to try to find work rather than to retire on previously earned capital.

Don't.

 

we are notionally "retired". We have a pot of capital to live from......in a country in deep deep economic doo-doo that is actually a very good position to be in.

 

But for a foreigner, who doesn't speak Castellano or any of the other 4 Spanish languages fluently, coming into a country with 24.4% unemployment, knowing no-one and nothing of the laws and customs, seeking well-paid work, it is economic suicide.

Spain is in the midst of the worst economic depression in its history, And it is going to get a lot worse in the months and years to come. It's construction and Tourism bubble, upon which almost all of it's whole economy was supported, has utterly crashed.

 

A one-month intensive course is not going to teach you Spanish. You'll be able to order a drink at a bar. You won't be able to work in Spanish with that rudimentary knowledge.

We took a 6 months, twice a week, one tutor to two pupils intensive course, just to get the basics. We've spent 9 years since, living in a Spanish ( not English) community, reading Spanish papers, watching Spanish TV, and I'd say we are now competent. Not experts, but competent.

 

Do you appreciate that the average wage in Spain is, by UK standards, tiny?

The average salary is about €12,000 per year.

About £11,000. That's the average. In any unskilled job like shopwork, or manual labour, it's about two thirds of that. A gross income of about £7,000 per year. That's it. For rent, food, taxes, transport, healthcare, clothes, gas, electricity, water bills, etc etc.

Yes, the cost of living is a lot lower than the UK. But so are incomes. A lot lower. And so are State Benefits like unemployment benefit. In Spain, the family helps out if you are in dire straits, NOT the State.

You will get NO help from the State at all. You will not get any NHS healthcare (except emergency patch-up). No dole. No social security. No help with rent or bills.

 

I don't want to shatter any dreams, but there is no work here for foreigners who can't speak the language fluently. None.

There's almost no work for the natives, and what there is pays a LOT less than in the UK.

Spain is in my opinion a FANTASTIC place to come to, or to live in, if you have independent means.

But it has and is proving a wrecking yard for northern Europeans who come down expecting to find some holy grail of big money and easy life amongst the palm trees.

 

I'm sorry, but it's better that you hear this stuff now than when you're £30k in debt and having to borrow the money for a flight back to the UK......which really is happening to Brits etc here now.

 

Pleas please please, start doing some intensive research, on the internet, on expats forums, anywhere else that you can; to get a fuller picture of the realities of living in Spain. It'll pay massive dividends.

 

[vindiboy]

Well said BGD, that's telling it as it is, great Country, friendly people ,good food, probably too hot most of the time unless you can lounge by the pool all day but not so good if you have to work, We prefer our wheels and can move on as and when, I admire those who have integrated into Spanish way of life and as you say the language is a must.

[Guest pelmetman]

If I were in the OP's position I would buy a Uk van and long term for a few years....... ;-)

 

See which way the eurozone cookie crumbles......before deciding.......I cant see the Spannish housing market doing much different to ours......ie it'll just tick over for the next 10 years......even with the Russians invading :D .........Good as time as any to be off the housing ladder now ;-)

 

As for the six month rule........seems like a good excuse to go traveling.......you've only got to cross a border for a day.........pop into France....Portugal.....Gibraltar B-)

[Guest pelmetman]

Dam got me edit and quote buttons in a twist again :$

[Guest JudgeMental]

Reading between the lines I think the OP is disillusioned with the UK..He has made it clear that his partner has skills that are not being used here ..so hence the Spain plan.

 

Spain is a lovely country, very cheap to live, excellent fresh produce.... and nice weather. Most of us on here are near or in retirement so have our money and dont need to have an income. If you need an income and cant get one here, I respectfully suggest you are not trying hard enough and are looking in the wrong direction

 

From what Bruce has excellently written, Spain is not a land of opportunity, it is a basket case along with the other Mediterranean EU countries....This was caused by the Germans and French seeing a great opportunity in widening the markets for their exports and that is what has happened..they have prospered and got fatter while Med country's are finished, all because they were fooled into thinking they were part of a brave new Europe and started buying expensive German and French products with easy credit.

 

The Germans did an unbelievable job in transforming the East back into a unified Germany...simply staggering. But they have a work ethic that is not really represented in any strength anywhere else in Europe and especially not in the med countries

 

If you want opportunity's move to Australia, they are out of recession as of a few weeks ago, have natural resources and still except people with skills with open arms

[Guest JudgeMental]

I should have said Australia has repaid its deficit and is back in the black as of a few weeks ago..... *-)

 

and before the fori spelin police get me.... that should have read accept not except

[JamesFrance]

pelmetman - 2012-05-17 11:08 AM

 

 

As for the six month rule........seems like a good excuse to go traveling.......you've only got to cross a border for a day.........pop into France....Portugal.....Gibraltar B-)

 

This is quite wrong. If you stay in an EU country for 183 days or more in a calendar year, you will be considered tax resident there and liable to the same taxes as a local on your worldwide income. That is why you would have to import your vehicle, however you would not have to pay what is commonly referred to as matriculation tax in Spain if you were to arrange the import of the vehicle before taking up residence. A foreign registered car or boat can be kept in Spain permanently provided the owner is not there for over the 183 days without any liability to matriculation tax or local registration.

 

As Eddie said there are many Brits living on campsites for years who have not been noticed by the Spanish government, because their only contact with officialdom is to pay the camping fees. I doubt that this will be allowed to continue as Spain needs all the revenue it can get. There could be hefty fines involved if they are caught, as happened to some UK boat dwellers in Torrevieja.

[Guest Tracker]

Just out of interest, does a calendar year mean Jan to Dec or does it mean for any 6 month period starting on the day you arrive in the country?t

 

Two different scenarios, the second meaning that you must leave after 6 months and not return within 6 months, and the first theoretically allowing you to enter on 1st July one year and remain until 30th June the following year?

 

Apart from the ferry ticket dates, as long as tax, MOT and Ins. are valid, how can anyone tell how long you have been in any one country unless you are stopped or caught by a speed camera or some other kind of official record is made of your presence?

[JamesFrance]

It's the tax year which for Spain and France is Jan to Dec. In fact there are some possible ways of being more than 183 days, but that occurs only if 2 countries consider you to be resident under their rules, as you cannot be tax resident in two countries. Then property ownership and centre of interests come in.

 

As I understand it if you are challenged it would be for you to prove that you were not in their country and not for them to prove that you were.

[Guest pelmetman]

JamesFrance - 2012-05-17 4:29 PM

 

It's the tax year which for Spain and France is Jan to Dec. In fact there are some possible ways of being more than 183 days, but that occurs only if 2 countries consider you to be resident under their rules, as you cannot be tax resident in two countries. Then property ownership and centre of interests come in.

 

As I understand it if you are challenged it would be for you to prove that you were not in their country and not for them to prove that you were.

What sort of income threshold do you start paying tax?.........I've never asked my oldman who lives in Spain with just the UK state pension if he pays tax......but I doubt it.

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

I just did a quick google and there is shed loads of information on the net...I think it will be Sicily for me next winter *-)