clay Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 i had a car a tow fitted to my car a year ago and it looks and works fine, a bit expensive at £1200 complete system but whilst on a site last week met a guy who was in a flap re his newly fitted unit. he had sorted out a system where he had to go from south wales to yorkshire to have it fitted (car a tow being to expensive ) he paid his £800 and brought the car back home the next day he left for site in the midlands and whilst on the motorway he felt something wrong. he pulled off and discovered that the bolts fitting the unit to the car had come loose and the eye bolts being of 16mm studs , the one stud had sheared and the other bent also the cross bar on the car frame had bend, at best a mess and at worse really dangerous. he contacted manufacturer and it will take him a week to sort it out . i have seen the towing unit and it looks like a home made unit compared with the car a tow. his total outlay was the cost of the unit, the fuel to and from yorkshire, caravan club fees while staying on site and cost of postage of unit back to man.. wont name man. but it seems again you pay for what you get, buyer beware. to add a note here i asked if he had contacted his insurer to see if they were happy that he was towing both of car and van.. i have e mailed both van and car insurer and got e mail replies confirming they were happy with me doing this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstick0_0 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 hi clay good that your happy with your car a tow A frame etc 5 weeks ago I changed my car and ordered and paid for a new bracket etc costing over £300 to fit it from car a tow and was told it would take approx:2 weeks then after too many phone calls and more excuses and outright lies than you could shake a stick at I have cancelled my order today Why do these people not just tell you the truth if they have made a mess of the order I think most people would accept that but in my opinion car a tow are the worst company I have ever dealt with and I dont think I can be the only one Anyway got that of my chest now so good luck to your mate :-o :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I'll stick with TowTal, at least they know what they are doing..........and don't rip you off with stupid prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I got mine from Towbars-2-Towcars with the electronic braking system. The service was very good, system works perfectly and never had a problem with it in 4 years. If the one in Yorkshire you refer to is in Ferrybridge, there was a very long thread on here a while back about it catching fire on the way home and a bungee rope to make the brake pedal return! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Mike B. - 2012-06-18 9:28 PM I got mine from Towbars-2-Towcars with the electronic braking system. The service was very good, system works perfectly and never had a problem with it in 4 years. If the one in Yorkshire you refer to is in Ferrybridge, there was a very long thread on here a while back about it catching fire on the way home and a bungee rope to make the brake pedal return! Mike I don't see the 'bungee-rope' as being a subject for criticism with the type of inertia-braking A-frame traditionally marketed in the UK. This type of braking system involves the towed-car's foot-brake pedal being pulled downwards via a bowden-cable. When the bowden-cable's 'pull' is released, the foot-brake pedal will attempt to recover to its original position via the pedal's own return-spring. However, as there's now a long bowden-cable (that the car manufacturer never allowed for) attached to the foot-brake pedal, there's the ever-present possibility that the standard return-spring may not be strong enough to overcome the cable's internal resistance. If that happens, the car's brakes will bind on (to a greater or lesser degree) and overheat. Adding the bungee-rope will augment the strength of the foot-brake pedal's return-spring and reduce the possibility of the car's brakes binding on. It's a belt-and-braces ploy that should be applauded for its simplicity and, if I had this type of A-frame, I use a bungee-rope on the foot-brake pedal even if the A-frame supplier chose not to provide one. If you'd like to suggest that a cable-operated A-frame braking system carries over-heating of the towed car's brakes as an inherent risk in its design, then I would fully agree. But the bungee-rope should be looked on as a Good Samaritan not as a criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 sorry it looks like i gave the impression that the faulty item was a car a tow unit, it was not the car a tow is great.. the duff item is a look a like and not of the same quality.. i ordered my car a tow unit from their agent in cardiff, paid a deposit he said it would be there in a week which it was and fitted the following day.. superb service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hi Derek yes the bungee cord is a good Idea and just a secondary protection for the footbrake and and was possibley an after thought to help the pedle to return. I have the caratow Aframe fitted by Leisure power in Warrington I think they are agents for Caratow and have no criticism of it yet I towed my car several hundred miles and the only problems were caused by me. The person complaining about the tow eyes comming loose they must not have screwed them in in the first place unless the part was defective on mine there is a locking nut to hold them in place how did they come loose when the tow frame hold`s them and they can not turn. Leisure Power removed the front section of my bumper and fitted a specialey made part behind the grill with the two eyes for the a frame as most cars have only one tow hook There are a lot of things to concentrate on when connecteing the a frame and things could have gone badley wrong with me if I did not check and check again First I forgot to let the handbrake off on the car my van is quite powerfull and I did not notice it but a mile down the road I stopped to check everything was OK and realised the mistake.(This is possibly the reason why cars are catching fire) Then I parked on the ferry and did not know that the stop lights would stay on on the car even when I switch everything off and locked my van so I ended up with a flat battery so next time I must disconnect the brake cable when parked up if the car is pushing against the van. Looking at the equipment it is very solid and well made I looked at the Towtal aframe and it looked a bit cheep compaired with mine and not as strong. I think you must check and check again during your journey to make sure everything is working as it should. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 micky, on the faulty bar it was not a matter of not screwing in the eye bolts the problem was it was not assembled correctly at fitting. the 16mm studs which the man. used in connecting the eye bolts to the frame snapped and the frame bent.. they should have used hi tensoin studs but obviously though standard galv ones would do.. although when it was fitted the guy who owned the car was not present to check.. the set up on the front of that vehicle was not the same as our car a tow as i have said it was a cheap immitation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 micky, on the faulty bar it was not a matter of not screwing in the eye bolts the problem was it was not assembled correctly at fitting. the 16mm studs which the man. used in connecting the eye bolts to the frame snapped and the frame bent.. they should have used hi tensoin studs but obviously though standard galv ones would do.. although when it was fitted the guy who owned the car was not present to check.. the set up on the front of that vehicle was not the same as our car a tow as i have said it was a cheap immitation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hi Clay, I did say unless the part was defective you put your trust in people who you think are genuine and once more you are in the s--t but I always say you pay for what you get and if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. once again I say that I am happy with what I got and I towed my car at up to seventy MPH (downbank and there are some hell of a downbanks and upbanks going down to the Vendee) and it was sound as a pound. A lot of people put down a frames but I got many interested and bewildered people coming up to me and looking at and admiring the a frame and wanted to know where I got it and how much it cost. Things may change and they may be banned or laws may come out to change the way they work but at the moment I am enjoying being able to take my car with me on long journeys. As for Towtal I will steer well clear of them in the future with the problems that I have had with them they deny everything and they dont seem to care. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hi Clay, I did say unless the part was defective you put your trust in people who you think are genuine and once more you are in the s--t but I always say you pay for what you get and if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. once again I say that I am happy with what I got and I towed my car at up to seventy MPH (downbank and there are some hell of a downbanks and upbanks going down to the Vendee) and it was sound as a pound. A lot of people put down a frames but I got many interested and bewildered people coming up to me and looking at and admiring the a frame and wanted to know where I got it and how much it cost. Things may change and they may be banned or laws may come out to change the way they work but at the moment I am enjoying being able to take my car with me on long journeys. As for Towtal I will steer well clear of them in the future with the problems that I have had with them they deny everything and they dont seem to care. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hi sorry for the repeat as my finger must have been a bit nervous or it may have been the wine mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 When manufacturing companies buy in components they are usually to a British Standard specification. If they are obtained from abroad then you take a chance. I'm talking about hydrogen embrittlement which can occur in the plating of fasteners with zinc etc. If the plating process of high tensile bolts misses out the de-embrittling proceedure then bolts can snap when under stress. To avoid this then sheradised bolts could be used. The end user has to trust the supplier to ensure that the fasteners he buys in have a de-embrittling certificate. Sometimes you come accross situations where wheel studs have sheered off, which could have been caused by a similar situation. Was the bolts in question over tightened on assembly who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 When manufacturing companies buy in components they are usually to a British Standard specification. If they are obtained from abroad then you take a chance. I'm talking about hydrogen embrittlement which can occur in the plating of fasteners with zinc etc. If the plating process of high tensile bolts misses out the de-embrittling proceedure then bolts can snap when under stress. To avoid this then sheradised bolts could be used. The end user has to trust the supplier to ensure that the fasteners he buys in have a de-embrittling certificate. Sometimes you come accross situations where wheel studs have sheered off, which could have been caused by a similar situation. Was the bolts in question over tightened on assembly who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Whereas a conventional load-carrying trailer or caravan is designed from the outset to be towed for any distance and for any duration, a car is not. John Wickersham's article "A-Frame Appraisal" in MMM August 2007 described the significant modifications needed to convert (by TOWtal) a Vauxhall Corsa so that it could be A-frame-towed behind JW's motorhome. JW (himself no mean engineer) says "Frankly, I hadn't appreciated how much time, thought and effort was involved in preparing a car to be towed using an A-frame." Mike (Mickydripin) says "A lot of people put down A-frames...", but this is not the case. Some people (including me) appreciate the potential pitfalls - both technical and legal - in the practice and are prepared to point these out if asked. That other people who use/market A-frames, or like the idea of using an A-frame, consider this to be an 'anti-A-frame' attitude is just tough luck as far as I'm concerned. I've always understood the attraction of A-framing, but I'm not blind to the potential risks. It is imperative that the conversion of a car to be A-frame-towed be carried out properly and, as Mike points out, that the A-frame user knows what he/she is doing. I can't say I'm a great fan of naming-and-shaming, but, although this thread criticises (fairly mildly) TOWtal and CAR-A-TOW, it does not specifically identify the manufacturer (other than it not being CAR-A-TOW) who had supplied the £800 system that failed on the motorway. Mike B guesses that it's Armitage Trailers at Ferrybridge but, it may not be. Clearly clay - the original poster - knows the name of the Yorkshire manufacturer, but choosing not to provide that information largely diminishes the usefulness of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Derek its not that i do not want to name and shame but i have clearly forgot the man. name .. i do not agree this de values the thread as the main reason i started it was to make people aware before they buy to make sure they are happy with the prod and that the cheapest might not be the best.. its my opinion that a properly fitted a frame on the motorhome towing is safer than a car/van combo.as an ex tugger you regularly see large vans on the back of cars swaying about and getting more regularly see vans over on the motorway wheras my little c1 follows the m/h religeously. hope u are keeping well :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 "A" frames were primarily used as a coupling for turntable trailers and many other applications where the coupling articulates. On the front of a car you could say that the wheels castor, so the stress caused is far greater when it has to follow the prime mover and it is very important to ensure that the "A" frame fitting is very robust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snitrats Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Just going slightly off subject, but has any one ever managed to get a cover letter from an car manufacturer stating that an A frame dos not affect the warranty? At the moment we have a Chris Cox frame on a Fiat Panda, good frame, right price and fitted with 2 dedicated towing eyes, and not using the cars own which I understand is not recommended We are looking to buy a Seat Mii for towing (VW up) I notice firms like smart tow are offering fitting to these new cars But I can not see how your makers warranty can still be in order. Has any one gone into this before fitting a frame?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Out of interest what happens regarding type approval for the car when the modification is made to the front of the vehicle. Does the tow frame maker sort this out with the car maker, VOSA etc or is it simply ignored. Adding some kind of frame to the front of the car must change crash resistance etc so what does happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasmineAnders Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 My local Fiat dealer said that if our Panda was modified for use with an A frame then it would not be covered by the warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Before I had mine fitted to a new Hyundai i10 I contacted Hyundai and they stated providing the fitting of the A frame was not a cause of the problem being claimed against then there was no problem with the warranty. Its a bit like fitting a tow bar to the front of a car, the warranty is not void when you have one fitted to the back, as long as it isn't the cause of the warranty claim. My A frame was fitted by Armitages, and I have had no issues with its use or how it was fitted :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 hi, i have my car a tow on my newly bought C1 .. bought with the purpoise of towing, checked with main dealer and he said it would not affect the warrenty unless the bar was directly responsible for any damage and chances are it would then be insurers prob.. i have had it on nearly a year and there has been no prob getting it serviced etc.. again ask the question and if u get a bit of paper all the better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 derek, thought you might smile at this.. this foto is of my 3 year old range rover with my royalle van on the rear ( rolls royce of its day made in gloucester) taken early 80s. look at the nose weight on that beast used it from scotland to cornwall and all points west, never used a anti snake bar on it and it towed like a dream prob.. because of the humungous chassis.. you recon i would get away with it now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I wasn't querying the warranty aspect of fitting a frame on the front of the car as that is obviously up to each manufacturer/dealer it is the type approval aspect I was interested in. Every type of car is frontal crash tested to establish it's NCAP rating and I assume this forms part of the type approval process. At the very least the additional structure must affect that particular test. My understanding of type approval is that only type approved modifications can be made to the vehicle and these have to be cleared through the system by the vehicle manufacturer, hence several motorhome makers now offer type approved tow bars as an option. Please note I have no views on A-frames at all as I do not want to tow a car, I am merely curious how the type approval aspect is covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 graham - 2012-06-22 7:44 PM................Please note I have no views on A-frames at all as I do not want to tow a car, I am merely curious how the type approval aspect is covered. I'm 95% certain it is not. Whether the modifications made are of sufficient significance to affect the TA status of the vehicle I do not know, but I assume that as there seems no statutory UK requirement to have such mods recorded on the registration document (as I believe is required in France and Germany), providing the insurance company is properly advised what has been fitted, and accept the modification, legality should not be a concern. With reference to warranty issues, and what faults may be deemed to relate to the use of an A frame, I would imagine that more may be deemed relevant then merely the mounting points. When towed in this way a number of components are also indirectly affected. Steering pivots, links, rack, and column bearings are all being used in ways that are not usual for a car. So too are wheel bearings, especially front wheel bearings, drive shaft joints and final drive. Brakes are also being activated by means that are not normal. I'm not seeking to suggest that any of these would necessarily be harmed by A-frame towing (though I have strong reservations over the steering line), but a dealer/manufacturer looking for an excuse as to why a fault should not be repaired under warranty seems to have quite a rich pool in which to swim. Remember that the warranty belongs to the warrantor, not the warrantee, and he has the final word on what he will accept, however unreasonable that may appear, and there is precious little you can do about it if you don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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