Domino Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I would appreciate it if some of you experts could throw some light on this weight/plating issue for me. I have just bought a new Burstner motorhome. The logbook shows gross weight 3500kg however the plate inside the engine shows 3650kg. There is also a plate on the habitation part of the vehicle - this shows 3500kg weight. Has anyone else come across this? What should I do as regard ensuring I am correctly documented and insured/ Thank you in advance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 A few Fiat Ducato-based motorhomes (eg. certain Auto-Trail "Tracker" models) are now being marketed with a maximum overall weight upgrade from 3500kg to 3650kg. It's not unknown for motorhomes to have data-plates carrying differing weight data, but it's very difficult to advise in your case with so little information about your new Burstner. Could you say please EXACTLY which model of Burstner you have (eg. SOLANO T-729) and its engine size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hi Domino Only a quess & needs verification, but I think it will be the Fiat plate that shows 3650kg (as that is in the engine compartment) & the Burstner plate that shows 3500kg. (as that is in the habitation area, i.e. habitation area was not on the vehicle when it left Fiat)) The european drivers' have licence restrictions to 3500kg (similar to those introduced in the UK in 1997) & many european vans are replated down to 3500kg to satisfy the restriction. If it is your Fiat plate which shows the 3650kg MAM (GVW) it should only be a "paper" excercise to upgrade, if you have C1 licence entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Motorhomes are vehicles finished in stages. The "finisher" (the last person to carry out work to the vehicle before it is sold) is responsible for final plating, and the Burstner plate should be taken as the ruling plate. Check the axle limits and GTW on both plates to seem if they differ between plates. If all three are unchanged between the plates your Burstner is on a 3,650kg Fiat chassis but has been downplated by Burstner. Most probably John's (flicka's) explanation will be correct, the downplating is to ensure the van can be driven on a normal car licence. As he says if you have a C1 licence you can get the van re-plated to 3,650kg to gain 150kg extra payload. It would be wise to fully load the van and weigh it before doing this, paying special attention to the axle loads vs their permissible maxima. Moat vans run out of load capacity on one, or other, axle before they hit their MAM. If you already hit, or are close to, an axle limit when loaded to 3,500kg, re-plating would give no advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-06-22 11:47 PM Motorhomes are vehicles finished in stages. The "finisher" (the last person to carry out work to the vehicle before it is sold) is responsible for final plating, and the Burstner plate should be taken as the ruling plate. Typically, the Geramn converters tend to be good at marking weight plates with a Stage (or Stüfe) number. If the base vehicle manufacturer has plated the vehicle (sometimes they don't, especially if it is AL-KO chassised) this alone is unlikely to have such a Stüfe marking, but the converter will then add a plate with "Stüfe 2" (and possibly others with further stages) on it. If one assumes that there is one plate by (say) Fiat on the vehicle, and then potentially one or several plates added during conversion (e.g. one by AL-KO for the chassis addition, one by Bürstner for the final conversion) the one which is most relevant for the vehicle is that with the highest (i.e. latest) Stüfe (stage) number. Is the 3650 plate a Fiat plate (and does the 3500 plate have a Stüfe marking on it?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 A GOOGLE-search shows that a 3650kg maximum permitted overall weight is now commonly being offered by motorhome manufacturers using the Fiat Ducato chassis. An example is shown here http://www.rapido.fr/sites/fra/porteur_7.php and this Which Motorhome report on a CI model mentions the 3650kg datum in the penultimate paragraph http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/Reviews/Motorhomes/Motorhome-review-Ci-S-Line-670-Family/_ch1_rw1061_pg1 There is the potential for a motorhome to have 3 weight-related data-plates - one linked to the base vehicle, one linked to a replacement Al-Ko chassis, and a third provided by the motorhome manufacturer. Domino's Burstner will have European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) and, consequently, Burstner will have issued a European Certificate of Conformity (ECOC) when the motorhome was completed. The ECOC carries the motorhome's maximum permitted overall weight in Section 14.1 and this datum is forwarded to the DVLA when the motorhome is first registered in the UK. In the case of a motorhome, this figure will decide which UK taxation class the vehicle is put into, and the weight-datum taken from ECOC 14.1 will (or should) subsequently appear on the motorhome's V5C Registration Certificate (log book). The positioning of the weight-related data-plates on the motorhome can vary. Domino's Burstner has a plate in the habitation area and 2nd plate under the bonnet, and (as Flicka suggests) it's reasonable to assume that the former is a Burstner addition and the latter the Fiat original. However, my Ford-based Hobby has it's Ford-supplied data-plate in the cab area and the Hobby-added data-plate in the engine compartment. As Domino's Burstner and my Hobby both have ECWVTA, wherever the data-plates are located, it will be the motorhome manufacturer's data-plate (Burstner's for Domino's motorhome; Hobby's for mine) that (as Brian Kirby says) will 'rule'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 Thank you all, especially Flicka, Derek and Brian, especially for the clear language, being a woman I sometimes find the technical stuff I just don't get - although I know some men don't either. My van is Burstner Nexxo T660, with automatic, rather than manual, cruise control, chassis pack upgrade, reverse camera, cat 1 alarm. The assumption Flicka made that the Fiat engine shows 3650kg is correct and the panel on the Burstner habitation bit shows 3500kg. I do not want the van replated, (I take that to mean the V5C would then show the heavier weight, but this has licensing implications when we reach 70 and possible increased tax etc?). So, can I just check my understanding of your comments is summarised correctly below:- Although the V5C shows 3500kg and the engine plate shows 3650 the fact that Burstner were the 'finisher' they have correctly plated the van at 3500kg so my conversations with insurance companies, that the van is 3500kg is correct and legal. Therefore the engine plate and log book do not have to line up - the fact the Burstner plate and logbook line up is all legal and correct. Apologies for sounding pedantic - its just that I want to be double check any insurance I take will be correctly recorded as I'd hate it to be invalid due to something like this. Finally, I will be going to a weighbridge next week - loaded pretty much as I plan to be for a trip - so I lwill also know our weight. Best wishes to all Domino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Domino - 2012-06-23 11:47 AM Thank you all, especially Flicka, Derek and Brian, especially for the clear language, being a woman I sometimes find the technical stuff I just don't get - although I know some men don't either. My van is Burstner Nexxo T660, with automatic, rather than manual, cruise control, chassis pack upgrade, reverse camera, cat 1 alarm. The assumption Flicka made that the Fiat engine shows 3650kg is correct and the panel on the Burstner habitation bit shows 3500kg. I do not want the van replated, (I take that to mean the V5C would then show the heavier weight, but this has licensing implications when we reach 70 and possible increased tax etc?). So, can I just check my understanding of your comments is summarised correctly below:- Although the V5C shows 3500kg and the engine plate shows 3650 the fact that Burstner were the 'finisher' they have correctly plated the van at 3500kg so my conversations with insurance companies, that the van is 3500kg is correct and legal. Therefore the engine plate and log book do not have to line up - the fact the Burstner plate and logbook line up is all legal and correct. Apologies for sounding pedantic - its just that I want to be double check any insurance I take will be correctly recorded as I'd hate it to be invalid due to something like this. Finally, I will be going to a weighbridge next week - loaded pretty much as I plan to be for a trip - so I lwill also know our weight. Best wishes to all Domino The Burstner data-plate is the one that matters, hence the 3500kg figure shown on the V5C (log book) is correct. The V5C should have "MOTOR CARAVAN" in the D3 (Body type) section and Section X (Taxation class) should read "PRIVATE/LIGHT GOODS (PLG)". The current annual VED taxation cost for PLG is £220 (or £121 for 6 months). Oddly, replating the vehicle to over 3500kg (Private HGV) would REDUCE the £220 annual taxation cost to £165 (£90.75 for 6 months), but, as you rightly say, there would be driving-licence implications at age 70 (and also lower speed limits would potentially apply). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 After a bit more research, the circumstantial evidence points to 2012 Fiat Ducato 'light' chassis-cab motorhome chassis (and, presumably, Citroen and Peugeot equivalents) having a maximum permitted overall weight of 3650kg as standard. This policy would allow the motorhome converter the choice to re-plate the completed vehicle to the 3500kg threshold that allows anyone in Europe with a basic 'car' driving-licence to legally drive the motorhome, or stay with the 3650kg maximum that (in countries like France that have national homologation regulations) might permit an extra passenger to be carried or the vehicle to be legally driven with its fresh-water tank 100% full. The 3650kg/3500kg limits are touched on here http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/news/2012-season-model-news-all-change-auto-trail The specification of the current Nexxo t-660 is shown here http://www.buerstner.com/uk/motorhomes/semi_integrated_models/nexxo/floor_plans/details/model/nexxo-t-660_default.html The vehicle is available with either the 2.3litre or 3.0litre motor, and built on either the 'light' (3500kg) or 'heavy' (4000kg) Ducato camping-car chassis. There is no indication that Burstner is offering the t-660 model with a 3650kg maximum overall weight. I note that the t-660's fresh-water tank capacity is quoted as "(adjustable use) 60/120" - that's 60 litres while travelling/120 litres when static. However, this is not a huge vehicle and payload at 3500kg should be adequate for most owners if not exactly generous. Domino's plan to have her Nexxo weighed in loaded state makes good sense, but I would not anticipate any unpleasant surprises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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