Paul M Who Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Hi Motorhomers, I'm a first timer here and would like opinions on what van to buy. I just spent 6 weeks in France and Italy in a LHD Karmann Dexter and had a ball. Revisited some of the places Margie and I traveled to 38 years ago in a Ford Transit based CI Coachbuilt when we lived in London back in the 70s. I was extremely impressed with the Fiat Ducato especially the 180 Multijet with Comfortmatic - just brilliant. I have always been a manual kinda guy but the Fiat Auto was outstanding so was the van. We want a van conversion for just the two of us as we are retiring next year and want to spend much more time in Europe, UK and Ireland. Renting again is out of the question so we have decided to buy a new or near new van, travel for up to 1 year then export it back to Australia. European makes are not an option for 3 reasons: 1. Everyone I checked out on our trip has the same layout - Why do you need rear travel seats in a 2 person van ( I thought the Euros had better sense). Around a quarter of the usable space is wasted and in a van that is unacceptable. 2. They may be cheaper but you never I mean never get a Grill and/or Oven and once you add the extras like auto and other extras that come with UK vans they work out pretty much the same. 3. If we export it to Australia it has to be RHD you can't register LHD there. So the parameters are it has to have a rear lounge/bed/dinette and NO front dinette or travel seats. The Front seats both have to swivel without obstruction. Removable front coffee table to use with front seats or similar setup Must have Oven/grill Rear of van to have windows on two sides + rear doors Rear of the van has to be able to have bike racks mounted to it Has to have the 180 Multijet with Auto gearbox with cruise control - not sure if Renault/Citroen have this or it's just on the Fiat Must have Air Con - a must for Aus Must be LWB 6 metre variant - MWB may do if space isn't compromised. NO Ford Transits Well that's about it. I would be grateful for any help you can give. Paul M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So you really want to be making beds up every night for a year you dont want a garage for all your stuff and paraphernalia, bikes or maybe even a scooter. you are certain you will never carry more then 1 passenger,, even when you return home you can still have a European make in RHD most vans will accommodate a retro fitted oven as far as I know, Fiat auto available now in 2.3 with option of 130/150 bhp. and the 3 litre at 160 bhp 6 metres is your max length? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul M Who Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 "So you really want to be making beds up every night for a year" Did it for 2 years on and off in the CI - what's the problem "you dont want a garage for all your stuff and paraphernalia, bikes or maybe even a scooter." No way a total waste of available space. Bikes on a bike rack on the back much better. We're camping not taking half the house with us. "you are certain you will never carry more then 1 passenger,, even when you return home" Nope and don't care. Will be selling the van back home at a much higher price than a second hand van in UK/Europe, which will more than break even then doing the same thing again 6 months to a year later. "you can still have a European make in RHD" At an extra cost with all the wasted space that comes with a Euro van "most vans will accommodate a retro fitted oven" again at an extra cost. "as far as I know, Fiat auto available now in 2.3 with option of 130/150 bhp. and the 3 litre at 160 bhp" The Karmann we hired in Germany came with a Euro 5 180 bhp Multijet with Comfortmatic and cruise control. "6 metres is your max length?" Why would I need anything bigger - the long wheelbase Ducato we toured in 2 month ago was more than adequate for the two of us - it was just all that wasted space we didn't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Paul M Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums. MMM magazine contains a Buyers' Guide relating to motorhomes marketed in the UK, with the vehicles listed by type and layout. The panel-van conversion (PVC) listing would allow you to produce a manageable shopping-list, but I'm guessing that you are now back in Australia and can't lay hands on the magazine. Besides Fiat's Ducato Comfortmatic gearbox (now available with the 2.3litre motor as well as with the 3.0litre powerplant), Mercedes-Benz, Renault and VW also offer automatic transmission. However, the MMM PVC listing suggests that few UK-available motorhomes would actually meet your stated requirements. Based on the MMM listing, 'hightop' PVCs around 6.0m long, having their habitation-area at the rear and a grill (or oven) are as follows: Autocruise - Rhythm and Accent (built on Fiat chassis) Devon Conversions - Aztec IH Motorhomes - Tio (not sure about the rear doors) Timberland Motorhomes - Destiny XI Vantage Motorhomes - (most models) Wildax Motorhomes - Europa Swivelling cab-seats would be the norm (swivelling easily might be another matter!) and it should be practicable to fit a bike-rack to any PVC, either on the rear door(s) or tow-bar mounted. You'd need to GOOGLE the manufacturers' respective websites to confirm specifications and layouts. You seem to be assuming that the standard specification of a UK-built PVC includes air-con and an auto-box, but both are usually extras. Consequently, you may well find difficulty sourcing a near-new secondhand PVC with both features (why should such vehicles be for sale?) and, if you wanted a brand-new motorhome, you'd (probably) need to place an order in order to specify the air-con/auto-box and then wait for the vehicle to be built. Best of luck with your plan, but the logistics seem daunting to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 truculent so and so aren't we..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 truculent so and so aren't we.....Simply looking for clarity before making any suggestions that is all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-06-28 3:06 PM truculent so and so aren't we.....Simply looking for clarity before making any suggestions that is all.. Paul appears to have addressed all your points clearly and succinctly, so you should now be in a position to make some suggestions. (Earlier, I overlooked the Renault Master-based Devon "Monte Carlo" that might be a contender. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Hi Paul & welcome to the forum A difficulty regarding your pefered spec I foresee would be the:- "The Front seats both have to swivel without obstruction." With most PVC rear lounge conversions the passenger seat will swivel as required, but the drivers seat will not swivel 180deg. It will swivel between 90deg to around 120deg. but any further will be restricted by offside front furniture. Good luck with your search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul M Who Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-06-29 12:06 AMtruculent so and so aren't we.....Simply looking for clarity before making any suggestions that is all.. OK Judge. You have read the spec. So tell me what Euro PVC comes close or matches them. I've tried to find them but they all seem to be the same basic layout as a Karmann. MS Reisemobile in Munster have an Export section which would be great if they sold something I wanted. I've noted that the Euro vans ARE much cheaper than the equivalent UK product but I can't find anything that suits my needs. Your post count rates you as a Expert so tell me Jedi Master where in Europe can I find what I need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 flicka - 2012-06-28 9:46 PM Hi Paul & welcome to the forum A difficulty regarding your pefered spec I foresee would be the:- "The Front seats both have to swivel without obstruction." With most PVC rear lounge conversions the passenger seat will swivel as required, but the drivers seat will not swivel 180deg. It will swivel between 90deg to around 120deg. but any further will be restricted by offside front furniture. Good luck with your search. A fair warning and I note that this limitation is mentioned (for both vehicles) in MMM's recent head-to-head report on the Autocruse Rhythm and Timberland Destiny XI. "One person can sit away up front in the cab. Neither has room for two there - despite both cab seats swivelling, the driver's is partially blocked by the washroom." There's a report on East Neuk's "Fifer Touring L" model here: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/userfiles/file/MMM%20historic%20road%20tests/East%20Nuek%20Fifer%20Touring%20Sum%2011.pdf with a photo showing the cab seats swivelled. In the Fifer's case neither seat can swivel through a full 180 degrees, but they probably still swivel enough for most people. East Neuk normally builds on a Citroen Relay chassis which (as far as I'm aware) means no auto-box option: hence I omiited their motorhomes from my list of possibilities. If all the boxes are to be ticked regarding Graham's required specification, this will exclude PVCs that should otherwise be excellent for long-term extended touring. Murvi's Morello, for example, but excluded because it has a front living-area and the rear doors do not permit access into the vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-06-28 2:14 PM You seem to be assuming that the standard specification of a UK-built PVC includes air-con and an auto-box, but both are usually extras. Consequently, you may well find difficulty sourcing a near-new secondhand PVC with both features (why should such vehicles be for sale?) and, if you wanted a brand-new motorhome, you'd (probably) need to place an order in order to specify the air-con/auto-box and then wait for the vehicle to be built. Best of luck with your plan, but the logistics seem daunting to me. ....I'm completely with Derek on the matter of the drivetrain, but less so on the aircon. The majority of panel van conversions were/are built on the Sevel (Fiat/Peugeot) base. The auto-box is not, and never has been, available on the Peugeot vehicles, and has up until recently been restricted to only the highest output Fiat base. There will be 160hp auto PVCs out there, but a S/H one available for purchase will be as rare as rocking-horse droppings. Even a new vehicle with auto, particularly on the highest-output Fiat base will be a special order, and may incur a considerable wait for the base to be ordered and delivered for conversion. I understand the reputation of the Fiat importer in Australia (in terms of costs and service) are not good, (though I also understand there may have been a very recent change of importer?) - You might want to keep my base-vehicle at the more simple end of the spectrum in case of later, potentially expensive, problems. As far as Aircon/Cruise Control, etc. are concerned, yes, they are often on the extras list, BUT, they are also often in a package that the converter expects to sell, and thus has stocks of the base vehicle for conversion, and builds with these options for dealer stock. When I was considering downsizing, I saw more stock vehicles with the options than without. Frankly, it should be fairly easy to source a new or S/H vehicle with these. So, if you are prepared to compromise on the engine choice (the standard 130hp is "adequate"), and the auto box you should have an easier time finding a 'van which, at least on paper, matches your other criteria (either new - possibly from stock - or recent s/h). You could then also consider the Peugeot or Citroen based converters, and Autosleepers, for instance, would have a couple of models. (Thinking of future service, I don't believe, however, that Peugeot Australia import the Boxer, whereas Fiat Australia do import the Ducato). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul M Who Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Thanks for all the good info. After some intense googling and visits to manufacturer's web sites I have a short list of contenders. I'd like to know your thoughts on them. Autocruise Rythmn Auto Sleeper Warwick Duo Vantage Sol/Neo IH Tio R/RL Timberland Destiny XI Devon Aztec / Monte Carlo Shire Phoenix 3 These are all the PVCs I could find with the basic layout I am after. All seem to be around the same price give or take except IH which doesn't list it's prices online. I've read the reviews on all but the Shire and all have their good and bad points, which I have noted. I'm surprised at the lack of quality and quantity of the images on all the sites I visited. They really need to take a look at their Euro competitor's websites and talk to better web designers. I know some are only small companies but you can more variety and better quality images on Autotrader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 There's a short review of the Shire Phoenix 3 here http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/Reviews/Motorhomes/Motorhome-review-Shire-Conversions-Phoenix-3/_ch1_rw1076_pg1 http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/userfiles/file/WMH%20historic%20road%20tests/Shire%20Phoenix%203.pdf It appears to offer a lot for the money and, in contrast to Auto-Sleepers' models, because it's Fiat-based an auto-box would be a possibility. Unlike Autocruise (and Auto-Sleepers) the lower-volume constructors will be more flexible when it comes to buyer preferences. So, if you didn't want the Phoenix 3's kid's bed, I'm sure Shire would happily delete it. In terms of interior fit and finish, IH Motorhomes is probably the best - but their asking-prices are similarly elevated. According to MMM a Tio R's price is currently £47342 and a Tio RL's £48317. Unfortunately, even if a converter's website and photos are super quality, and their motorhomes' on-paper specification is super attractive, this doesn't necessarily stop seat cushions being too soft or too firm, or a toilet-seat being installed uncomfortably high. Such things should not present problems for UK prospective buyers who (one sincerely hopes) will actually view/drive short-listed vehicles before deciding to purchase, but will clearly be trickier for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Had a long look at the Vantage range whilst at the Newbury Show this year and was impressed. If we were to change our Murvi Morello for a rear lounge PVC Vantage would be at the top of the list for consideration. They came second behind Murvi in the CaravanClub awards for PVC in the £40000+ section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I know you said you don't want a front lounge/dinettte but we saw the Autocruise Accent at a recent show and it was a very nice van indeed - 6m length, offside front half dinette, washroom/wardrobe behind it, opposite that the kitchen with oven/grill, then at the rear a nice lounge which is raised so that there is some storage underneath it. The beauty of this is that you have 2 lounging areas so if you and your other half want a bit of space to yourselves you have it. If you don't want to have the front dinette set up all the time, you could make it more user friendly by removing the wall mounted table and putting in a smaller flip up table and a larger swivelling one instead - I've done this in our Chausson Flash 04 so we have the option of removing the large table altogether and just using the flap to put drinks etc on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick GCT Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 No doubt here, if you want a quality PVC with decent fittings in a rear lounge vehicle , go for the IH TIO RL or VANTAGE NEO. I agree with the comments on this forum by bobalobs about the Vantage Sol/Neo, their quality is excellent and the extra you need to pay for an IH is possibly not worth it. A lot of the extra is for the name. Good luck in your search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Hi Paul If you want to look at an alternative base vehicle Mandale Liberte is on the Renault Master 6.2m LWB. Slight variation on the general theme with a split arge Kitchen . Hob & prep area one side & sink the other. Auto Gearbox is a £960 cost option. http://mandalemotorvehicles.co.uk/page9.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 flicka - 2012-07-03 8:23 PM Hi Paul If you want to look at an alternative base vehicle Mandale Liberte is on the Renault Master 6.2m LWB. Slight variation on the general theme with a split arge Kitchen . Hob & prep area one side & sink the other. Auto Gearbox is a £960 cost option. http://mandalemotorvehicles.co.uk/page9.html As the website above is under construction there's very little on it, however an article was done in April 2012 which gives more info: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/Features/Company-Profiles/Campervan-Converters/_ch1_ft765_pg1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul M Who Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 After considering all your comments and an exhaustive search of all the reviews I can find, given that I'm doing this from Oz, I am leaning heavily towards the Vantage. The NEO & SOL have just what I need but the north/south bed was a worry. I had no problem sleeping East/West in the Karmann so the longitudinal layout of the NEO/SOL was again a waste of space. But after contacting Scott Naylor at Vantage he informed me they have a model called the MAX which has the front layout of the NEO and the rear layout of the MED. This gives me the rear lounge with the E/W bed of the MED and the extra long kitchen and pantry of the NEO on the SOL base vehicle. This is the best layout I can find that gives me everything I need in a 6 metre van conversion. And my email was answered personally within hours of sending it. Everything I have read about these guys on forums and in reviews seems to be factual. They will even store my motorhome if we decide not to ship it home. Now that is customer service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I found this review of a 'MAX' which may give you some info: http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/review/motorhome/2008-vantage-max-rl They also do the 'CAD' model too: http://www.vantagemotorhomes.co.uk/cad-motorhome-info.php They are also associated with 'Smart Campers' too: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/Reviews/Motorhomes/Motorhome-review-Smart-Campers-Rio-on-2-4-litre-turbo-diesel/_ch1_rw1092_pg1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Paul M Who - 2012-07-05 10:24 PM ...They will even store my motorhome if we decide not to ship it home... I once met an Australian couple with an Auto-Trail motorhome who thad been touring Europe for 6 months each year, returninged home for the interim period leaving the vehicle in storage in the UK. They planned to continue doing this until they got fed up when they would sell the motorhome in the UK. I guess you've checked out the general position regarding insurance. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23783&posts=6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandale Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 flicka - 2012-07-03 8:23 PM Hi Paul If you want to look at an alternative base vehicle Mandale Liberte is on the Renault Master 6.2m LWB. Slight variation on the general theme with a split arge Kitchen . Hob & prep area one side & sink the other. Auto Gearbox is a £960 cost option. http://mandalemotorvehicles.co.uk/page9.html Hello everyone and thanks to Flicka for thinking of us. Our web-site is under construction, however a full review of the liberte is available in this months practical motorhome mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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