Woodlander Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I'm fairly new to motorhoming and am now considering towing a Smart car to enable us to do more exploring. Trouble is I don't know which is best. A-frames, which seem simply and neat, or trailers. I imagine using an A-frame will pile on the mileage of the towed car for no good purpose. But a trailer allows the mileage to be confined to actual use. This seems to be eminently more sensible. But then there is the question of insurance etc. So what are the pros and cons? I would be grateful for any advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Hi there, You`ll need your " Tin Hat " and a good wall of " Sand Bags " to hide behind..........lol This will protect you from the incoming " flak " you are about to receive......lol Good luck and keep your head down. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 why dont you use the forum search facility..it works very well and you will find shed loads of information on A frames.. it really has been discussed to death!lol try this:-D http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=A+Frames&author=&days=&Submit=Search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Just use the search facility to pull up the details on all previous one million threads on this topic. In case you just want to cut to the chase: The use of A-frame towing may or may not be legal or illegal on UK roads. Because of the way UK traffic law is written this is not clear either way, and everyone still awaits a court case decision to finally nail the issue one way or the other. Proponents believe that the car is somehow transformed and becomes a trailer when an A-frame bar is attached to it's front. Opponents say that is patently silly...it is and remains a car, regardless of what accessories you might attach to it. I believe that some future changes in UK trailer regs may be upcoming in 2014 as a result of some possible new EU Directive on trailers, which might (or might not) help to settle this grey area of UK law. However, such road traffic laws are not EU-wide. Each country makes it's own law in this area; and in many other countries in mainland Europe (eg Spain, Portugal) it is already specifically listed as being illegal. Because in these countries (and possibly also Germany/France etc?) it is specifically outlawed to tow any road vehicle with another vehicle. You are likely to get fined and told to de-hitch and drive the two vehicles separately if caught. And the Police in those countries have now cracked-down hard on this illegal activity. There is also a big question mark as to whether you are actually insured whilst you deliberately break the laws of that country by illegally A-frame towing. So: If you're a gambling man on the future, and only ever going to potter round the UK, then maybe investigate A-frame towing further. If you want to be legally safe both now and in the future and without possible un-insured issues, then just take the other route: get a proper, purpose built trailer and be happy and legal and insured wherever in the UK or mainland Europe you tow it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Woodlander - 2012-07-09 9:38 AM I'm fairly new to motorhoming and am now considering towing a Smart car to enable us to do more exploring. Trouble is I don't know which is best. A-frames, which seem simply and neat, or trailers. I imagine using an A-frame will pile on the mileage of the towed car for no good purpose. But a trailer allows the mileage to be confined to actual use. This seems to be eminently more sensible. But then there is the question of insurance etc. So what are the pros and cons? I would be grateful for any advice. Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums. As has already been said, towing a car behind a motorhome has been discussed repeatedly (and at length) on this and other forums. Unfortunately, this forum's Search facility is fairly basic and (as will be plain if the link provided by JudgeMental is employed) will tend to produce masses of superfluous information. I suggest you use the link below relating to a recent thread on the "Hints and Tips" forum http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28177&posts=6 In my posting of 8 July on that thread I provided a more specific link to earlier A-frame-related debates on this forum, plus a link to advice from the Department for Transport. See how you get on. I don't believe there's a simple "this option is best" answer to your questions, but the earlier discussions may help you decide which option is most likely to suit your particular requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Specific A frame/towing threads are within the long generic link I provided..... Is moi expected to do everything I wonder.....Take em by the hand! and mollycoddle em! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Hi Woodlander, I am a new A framer user and I think they are the best thing since slice bread BUT weather to listen to other posters on this site is up to you. There are some worries about weather there will be legislation to ban cars being towed with an a frame people have been quoting 2014 and other years when there is to be an update to new laws but who knows I think most of it is just speculation and are just getting out the crystal ball. I had my a frame in may this year it is a car-a-tow and it is a great bit of kit dont be tempted to buy second hand ones unless it is almost new as they have been updated and dont go for the cheepest option as you only get what you pay for. Once you have got it study the instructions over and over and when you have put it on check and check again that you have connected everything I know by experiance that it is so easy to miss something. I have used my a frame in the UK and in France and police cars have passed me with no problems a police car pulled up behind me in France on an aire and the officers had a good look at it they asked me how it worked and from what I understud as my French is not very good they were happy and went on there way. I know there are some country`s that you can not use an a frame as named above so I will not take it there that is there loss I will take it where I am welcomed. I will not say good luck to you as there is sure to be someone to come along and say that you will need it but at the moment I will just enjoy the freedom that it gives me. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snitrats Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 As above we have been toading for a couple of years now without any problems, We have a Chris Cox frame , which is a substantial bit of kit. Based in Solihul (I think) He will collect and redeliver your car, worth a try. :-D P.S. Towing dos not put on miles on the car (Fiat Panda) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Hi there, If you go down the A-Frame route here`s a little tip. Because you need a key in the ignition to stop the steering lock from engaging, what i did was to have a new key cut without the transponder in it. My local Morrisons has a Timpsons that also cuts keys, the blank cost £1.99 and they charged £4 to cut it. " This key will be no good for the car sir " they will say but just nod and walk away.....lol. All you want it to do is to release the steering lock and not to start the car. So even if someone gets in it with the key in it will not do them any good. I also found a cloth that was a similar colour to the dashboard trim and hung that over the column to hide the key. Also cars with electronic mileometers do not " clock up " any mileage went the ignition is not turned on. Which ever way you decide i wish you all the best. Regards Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-07-09 11:34 AM Specific A frame/towing threads are within the long generic link I provided..... Is moi expected to do everything I wonder.....Take em by the hand! and mollycoddle em! *-) To be fair, Eddie it's Woodlander's first post & he will not be familiar with all the functions on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Depending on the technical design of the car, towing it on its wheels may or may not increase the vehicle's odometer reading. Whether or not the odometer reading increases, there's no doubt that towing a car will produce distance-related wear to tyres, steering, suspension and braking components. The other side of the coin, of course, is that, if a trailer is used, distance-related wear to the trailer's tyres and suspension/braking components will inevitably take place. I've never understood why there has been so much argument about motorhome car-towing. If a UK motorcaravanner decides that towing a car behind his/her motorhome is an attractive idea, there are only two choices of 'system' - a trailer or an A-frame. Both methods have their pros and cons but, in many cases, basic selection criteria will force the issue. If you have no space to store a trailer, or cannot afford the cost of a trailer, you'll either have to employ an A-frame or not tow. Conversely, if 'legality' everywhere in Europe is of paramount importance, you'll need to use a trailer or not tow. A noticeable thing about motorhome car-towing discussions is that there seems to be little or no input from people who use a trailer, and I'm tempted to think that this is because they are completely comfortable with their choice of towing system and feel no need to justify that choice. On the other hand all A-frame users seem to be evangelists for that towing system and then get peeved when its (potential) drawbacks are pointed out. Weird... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodlander Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Thanks for all your help guys and gals. Sorry about the question but I DID try the search facility and didn't get anything useful. (Tin hat useful in deflecting slings and arrows) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 My local Morrisons has a Timpsons that also cuts keys, the blank cost £1.99 and they charged £4 to cut it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wooie, I wish I had found out about getting my key from morrisons for £5-99 I got mine from the local Toyota dealer and it cost me £29-99. Typical rip off main dealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-07-10 6:21 PM My local Morrisons has a Timpsons that also cuts keys, the blank cost £1.99 and they charged £4 to cut it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wooie, I wish I had found out about getting my key from morrisons for £5-99 I got mine from the local Toyota dealer and it cost me £29-99. Typical rip off main dealers. The main reason for getting the key from there was that it " WILL NOT " start the car. It is purely for stopping the steering lock engaging and i was not going to pay £30 plus for that. The big difficulty was getting the guy on the counter to just " cut the bloody key " ....lol He insisted on telling me again and again and again that it will not work. Mind you i suppose he was only doing his job. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Wooie said, The main reason for getting the key from there was that it " WILL NOT " start the car. It is purely for stopping the steering lock engaging and i was not going to pay £30 plus for that. Wooie, my key is the same as yours it will only unlock the stearing lock it will not start the car or undo the doors and it cost me 29-99 as above but if I had brought the full key it would have cost me just under eighty pounds from the main dealer and just under £180 if I had the chip for central locking. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Wooie said, The main reason for getting the key from there was that it " WILL NOT " start the car. It is purely for stopping the steering lock engaging and i was not going to pay £30 plus for that. Wooie, my key is the same as yours it will only unlock the stearing lock it will not start the car or undo the doors and it cost me 29-99 as above but if I had brought the full key it would have cost me just under eighty pounds from the main dealer and just under £180 if I had the chip for central locking. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Just as a matter of interest, does anyone have any guidance on how much a proper, legal, lightweight small-car trailer would cost (new or secondhand); compared to the cost of getting a might-or-might-not-be-legal-in-the-UK-but-definitely-illegal-in-other countries A-frame setup fitted to a small car? And what's the attitude of insurers when you advise them that an A-frame kit has been added and (I assume) the braking and electrical systems of the car have also been modified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 A small lightweight trailer would have cost about twice as much as my legal and upgradable to future legislation, safe 'A' frame. The 'A' frame has none of the problems of storage, loading, securing and stability on the road of a trailer. So far only the ratbags in Spain (who sell their grannies for a drink) have been stopping 'A' framers so no loss there. Insurance company are happy to insure Toad and Motorhome and provide reasonable price recovery and repatriation should things go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 aultymer - 2012-07-11 12:12 PM A small lightweight trailer would have cost about twice as much as my legal and upgradable to future legislation, safe 'A' frame. The 'A' frame has none of the problems of storage, loading, securing and stability on the road of a trailer. So far only the ratbags in Spain (who sell their grannies for a drink) have been stopping 'A' framers so no loss there. Insurance company are happy to insure Toad and Motorhome and provide reasonable price recovery and repatriation should things go wrong. Please explain the basis on which you are able to declare your A frame actually legal. Have you at least obtained counsel's opinion, for example? I have no axe to grind, but I believe such statements are potentially misleading to others. Regarding Spain, and your rather sweeping slur on the Spanish, A-frames are not illegal as such in Spain. As has been stated before any number of times, it is the act of towing one vehicle with another, unauthorised, vehicle that is illegal under Spanish law, and apparently has been for years. It matters not whether the vehicle is towed with an A-frame, a tow pole, a dolly, a rope or what, it is the actual act of towing that breaks the law, not the means. This distinction must be understood by everyone intending to tow a vehicle in Spain. Those who knowingly choose to take the risk do so voluntarily and that is fine. A car placed on a trailer is not being directly towed, the trailer is a completely legal device, and the car is merely its load. People may well argue with the logic of this, but it is the law, and folk must just accept that and comply, or put up with the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Wooie - 2012-07-09 4:22 PM Hi there, If you go down the A-Frame route here`s a little tip. Because you need a key in the ignition to stop the steering lock from engaging, what i did was to have a new key cut without the transponder in it. My local Morrisons has a Timpsons that also cuts keys, the blank cost £1.99 and they charged £4 to cut it. " This key will be no good for the car sir " they will say but just nod and walk away.....lol. All you want it to do is to release the steering lock and not to start the car. So even if someone gets in it with the key in it will not do them any good. I also found a cloth that was a similar colour to the dashboard trim and hung that over the column to hide the key. Also cars with electronic mileometers do not " clock up " any mileage went the ignition is not turned on. Which ever way you decide i wish you all the best. Regards Graham. The OP mentioned a Smart which does not have a steering lock, so no need for a key. Just make sure it is neutral, handbrake off, lock the door on exit and off you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-07-11 6:19 PM aultymer - 2012-07-11 12:12 PM A car placed on a trailer is not being directly towed, the trailer is a completely legal device, and the car is merely its load. People may well argue with the logic of this, but it is the law, and folk must just accept that and comply, or put up with the consequences. Unless of course the additional weight of the trailer and the "load" then exceeds your MGVW which is positively illegal in ALL countries. Where as my toad on an A frame keeps me under weight and is "accepted" in some countries as not being sufficiently illegal to warrant a fine for its use. The choice is yours at the end of the day, do you go to Spain for the winter toad less and hire a car for £800 (3 months) or take the toad and risk a fine of 40 euro? *-) *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 aultymer - 2012-07-11 12:12 PM A small lightweight trailer would have cost about twice as much as my legal and upgradable to future legislation, safe 'A' frame. The 'A' frame has none of the problems of storage, loading, securing and stability on the road of a trailer. So far only the ratbags in Spain (who sell their grannies for a drink) have been stopping 'A' framers so no loss there. Insurance company are happy to insure Toad and Motorhome and provide reasonable price recovery and repatriation should things go wrong. A quick search on the web for those companies actually showing prices reveals:- A-Frame prices Armitage website “We can make and fit Motorhome A-Frames to most popular makes of small car for an all-in price of £799. The price gives you an easy-to-fit towing braked a frame, complete with over run brakes and full electrics. Our price goes to £849 for cars that are either over a tonne or have multiplex, computer-controlled electrics and to £899 for cars that have multiplex electrics and weigh between a tonne and 1600kg.” Car-a-tow website Car-a-tow Fitted System: £1099.00 Car-a-tow D.I.Y. System: £859.00 Using a Toyota Argo as example Trailers Smart Trailers for You website Trailer (for Smart Four 2 car)£1295 + VAT (£1554) Smart Trailers for You website Brian James website shows From £1439 for a Smart Four2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 DJP - 2012-07-11 7:43 PM Brian Kirby - 2012-07-11 6:19 PM A car placed on a trailer is not being directly towed, the trailer is a completely legal device, and the car is merely its load. People may well argue with the logic of this, but it is the law, and folk must just accept that and comply, or put up with the consequences. Unless of course the additional weight of the trailer and the "load" then exceeds your MGVW which is positively illegal in ALL countries. Where as my toad on an A frame keeps me under weight and is "accepted" in some countries as not being sufficiently illegal to warrant a fine for its use. The choice is yours at the end of the day, do you go to Spain for the winter toad less and hire a car for £800 (3 months) or take the toad and risk a fine of 40 euro? *-) *-) But the legality of towing in excess of your GTW is an entirely different issue to the legality of flat towing a vehicle in Spain. Surely that must be clear? It matters nought that a car on an A-frame allows you to keep within your GTW, that does not suddenly make flat towing legal in Spain. Is this some new basis for determining legality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Brian, you really must get out more! How much does the trailer industry pay you? What part of :- Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly. If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer. From the Direct.gov site =http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285 do you not understand? OR:- http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/factsheetaframes.pdf Quote:"From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law." My post was in reply to a question from another poster. What prompted you irrational outburst? From the above, there is no need to involve expensive 'council' opinion, which, after all will, still be just an opinion. My comments on Spain are based on my experience of that country and the failure of the police there to deal with petty theft (they now regard anything below 400 Euro to be petty and will not investigate!) There are so many nice countries with helpful police forces that we will no longer bother to visit Spain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 As I understand English law, the PRACTICE of a motorhome towing a car on an A-frame in the manner that UK A-frame suppliers advise is not illegal in this country. This non-illegality is based on the argument that the car is considered to be a trailer when it is being towed. If it were claimed (perhaps by the police) that this argument is unsound, and that the towed car remains a “car” and does not become a “trailer”, then that’s what would need to be tested in Court. Even if it were agreed in Court that the towed car does become a trailer and that motorhome A-frame towing as a PRACTICE is thus fully legal in the UK, this would not alter the fact that the car + A-frame would need to meet all UK trailer technical requirements and (to the best of my knowledge) cars towed via inertia-braked A-frames do not. While it may be argued by some UK A-frame suppliers that the PRACTICE is not illegal in the UK, hence must not be illegal in other EU states for UK motorcaravanners driving UK-registered vehicles, it’s surely difficult to argue that an individual using an A-frame system that fails to meet UK trailer regulations can be acting legally in this country let alone abroad. Perhaps I’m missing something here, but can anyone provide a credible explanation how, when trailers and caravans meet UK towing regulations by being obliged to have brakes that are disabled when the trailer/caravans are reversed, cars towed on inertia-braked A-frames are able to meet the same regulations despite having brakes that continue to be operative when the car is moved backwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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