A-Frames or Trailers?

[Brian Kirby]

aultymer - 2012-07-11 9:24 PM

 

Brian, you really must get out more!

How much does the trailer industry pay you?

What part of :-

Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly.

 

If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.

 

From the Direct.gov site =http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285

do you not understand?

OR:- http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/factsheetaframes.pdf Quote:"From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind

other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while

this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can

reach a definitive interpretation of the law."

My post was in reply to a question from another poster. What prompted you irrational outburst?

From the above, there is no need to involve expensive 'council' opinion, which, after all will, still be just an opinion.

My comments on Spain are based on my experience of that country and the failure of the police there to deal with petty theft (they now regard anything below 400 Euro to be petty and will not investigate!)

There are so many nice countries with helpful police forces that we will no longer bother to visit Spain

Thank you, but I get out quite enough, and I receive no payment from trailer, or A-frame manufacturers, neither do I tow a car behind my motorhome. As I said, I have no axe to grind.

 

I think Derek sets out my reservations regarding the compliance with braking and reversing requirements for trailers very well. A car on an A-frame falls into a "grey area" under UK law. It is neither banned under statute, not sanctioned under common law, because, AFAIK, the principle has never been tested in court. So it is neither legal nor illegal. You may not like that, but it is how it is - unless you can show me otherwise, which it seem you can not.

 

What you quote is not the law. It is the opinion of a civil servant (who I doubt is legally qualified, and although he may have taken opinion from the Treasury Solicitor, he does not say this), who quite clearly sets out the reservations regarding the courts having the power to determine. That is all it is. You may take comfort from it, but it is not proof as to the legal status of an car towed on an A-frame. So far from irrational, my comments were entirely rational, and was a question, and not an outburst.

 

Surely the willingness of Spanish police to deal with petty theft has little bearing on whether an A-frame is legal in Spain. My point, to a poster who says he is a novice and is looking for ways to take a car with his motorhome, is to make him aware of potential pitfalls so that he can reach an informed decision. Your post, IMO, misleadingly overstated the UK position, and did not raise the more complex position outside the UK.

[Mickydripin]

Brian,

I looked into everything before I went down the A frame path I looked at trailers car hire electric bikes the lot and found out good or bad that the a frame was the best option.

As for the Trailer option when I had the towbar fitted I found out that the weight that I could pull was less than the weight on my van vin plate.

My van is 3,500Kg and on the vin plate it says 6,000Kg total (if I am reading it right) I first thought that I could tow a trailer of 2,500Kgs but on my towbar it says the drawn value is 1200Kg so a trailer and my car would be way too heavy there is a lot to look in to before you decide.

 

Mike.

 

[BGD]

flicka - 2012-07-11 8:58 PM

 

aultymer - 2012-07-11 12:12 PM

 

A small lightweight trailer would have cost about twice as much as my legal and upgradable to future legislation, safe 'A' frame.

The 'A' frame has none of the problems of storage, loading, securing and stability on the road of a trailer.

So far only the ratbags in Spain (who sell their grannies for a drink) have been stopping 'A' framers so no loss there.

Insurance company are happy to insure Toad and Motorhome and provide reasonable price recovery and repatriation should things go wrong.

 

A quick search on the web for those companies actually showing prices reveals:-

A-Frame prices

Armitage website

“We can make and fit Motorhome A-Frames to most popular makes of small car

for an all-in price of £799. The price gives you an easy-to-fit towing braked a frame, complete with over run brakes and full electrics. Our price goes to £849 for cars that are either over a tonne or have multiplex, computer-controlled electrics and to £899 for cars that have multiplex electrics and weigh between a tonne and 1600kg.”

 

Car-a-tow website

Car-a-tow Fitted System: £1099.00

Car-a-tow D.I.Y. System: £859.00

Using a Toyota Argo as example

 

Trailers

 

Smart Trailers for You website

Trailer (for Smart Four 2 car)£1295 + VAT (£1554)

Smart Trailers for You website

 

Brian James website shows From £1439 for a Smart Four2

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Flicka.

 

So, it is maybe just 200 or 300 quid more, to be fully, definitely, legal in the UK and throughout all the rest of mainland Europe too, both now and in the future too.

 

 

[DJP]

Crystal clear!

I was just trying to point out that people should not believe that towing a trailer with a car on board is NOT always the legal solution to taking a car with your motorhome.

 

The statement does not determine either choice as being legal or illegal, it depends on the circumstances (MTW) and/or the country of use e.g. Spain.

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mickydripin - 2012-07-12 11:12 AM

 

Brian,

I looked into everything before I went down the A frame path I looked at trailers car hire electric bikes the lot and found out good or bad that the a frame was the best option.

As for the Trailer option when I had the towbar fitted I found out that the weight that I could pull was less than the weight on my van vin plate.

My van is 3,500Kg and on the vin plate it says 6,000Kg total (if I am reading it right) I first thought that I could tow a trailer of 2,500Kgs but on my towbar it says the drawn value is 1200Kg so a trailer and my car would be way too heavy there is a lot to look in to before you decide.

 

Mike.

Hi Mike.

 

Assuming you are reading your VIN plate correctly - and why should we assume otherwise - the limitation is coming from the towbar, and not from your van. Whether there are alternative makes/models of towbar that could reinstate your full GTW, or give you more of it, I don't know - but it may be worth pursuing that angle. Have you taken this up with the supplier of the towbar, or did you (not unreasonably) assume they would match the bar to the capability of the van? I do think that if there was a choice of bars, you should have been consulted.

[Guest JudgeMental]

I thought new legislation in 2014 will mean the end of A frame towing?

[Brian Kirby]

Not sure Eddie. I don't think the legislation has yet been finalised - though it exists, because I've read some of it. Not sure if it was a draft, or was final but has not yet come into force. Of the bits I read, one thing caught my eye, which is that if a trailer is equipped for ABS, the ABS must work when the trailer is being towed.

 

Haven't studied the detail at all (why would I, it's not my problem), so there may be exceptions to that provision elsewhere in a quite long and complicated document. However, if a flat towed car is to become a trailer, and the car is equipped with ABS, and there is no exception, making the cars brakes and ABS work as required will not be easy.

 

Also, twin (or more) axled trailers, from memory, may not employ overrun braking, which is to be reserved for single axle trailers only (which includes close coupled twin axles, defined from memory as both axles being one metre max apart).

 

Why don't those who wish to promote the use and legality of A-frames do some digging on their own behalves, then they could see for themselves what is coming? Might prove more constructive than grumbling away on here! :-)

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2012-07-12 2:56 PMNot sure Eddie. I don't think the legislation has yet been finalised - though it exists, because I've read some of it. Not sure if it was a draft, or was final but has not yet come into force. Of the bits I read, one thing caught my eye, which is that if a trailer is equipped for ABS, the ABS must work when the trailer is being towed.Haven't studied the detail at all (why would I, it's not my problem), so there may be exceptions to that provision elsewhere in a quite long and complicated document. However, if a flat towed car is to become a trailer, and the car is equipped with ABS, and there is no exception, making the cars brakes and ABS work as required will not be easy.Also, twin (or more) axled trailers, from memory, may not employ overrun braking, which is to be reserved for single axle trailers only (which includes close coupled twin axles, defined from memory as both axles being one metre max apart).Why don't those who wish to promote the use and legality of A-frames do some digging on their own behalves, then they could see for themselves what is coming? Might prove more constructive than grumbling away on here! :-)

 

Brian your post is interesting but I fail to see why those who use A frames should need to dig into 'proposals' or even draft legislation to justify the legal use of A frames.  The manufacturers of these systems are selling them as 'legal' and/or 'approved' therefore I don't see the problem.  However future legislation may or may not render them illegal and if it does then that will be another stupid piece of legislation putting a nail in the coffin of small businesses.

 

[Brian Kirby]

For two reasons only, Roger.

 

1 For the benefit of anyone contemplating buying one, who may wish to be informed of the broader picture before they jump in.

 

2 For any of those who presently own them, to give them the time to investigate where they may stand in 2014, assuming the UNECE regs are adopted. The A-frame is not the trailer, and the car without the A-frame is just a car. That seems to me to leave the issue of whether existing A-frames would be allowed to continue in use, or if the new regulations may retrospectively ban them.

 

As to why A-frame users might wish to do their own research, it is because I would not rely on assurances given by someone selling anything, that it is legal, or that it will continue to be so. Many people have found to their cost that such assurances, even those given by major national and multi-national companies, are not necessarily reliable. If it were me, I should inform myself, so far as I were able, as to the actual circumstances.

 

So, it just seems reasonable to pass on what I have found out when others seem not to have done the digging. Besides, I have not made an exhaustive study, I have only had a quickish look. What I have seen raises more doubts as to the reliability of the advice of the manufacturers, than it answers questions. I have raised my doubts so that those with an interest may inform themselves. If they choose not to that is entirely their own affair. As I keep saying, I have no axe to grind one way or the other.

[aultymer]

"As I keep saying, I have no axe to grind one way or the other."

So why do you keep on grinding?

[WildBill]

This argument seems to rear itself every few weeks.

I myself would not go down the A frame route as I am in no hurry to tow a car. If I was, I would do all the homework myself as to legality etc but basicaly remain aware that once on foreign shores, the law changes and A frames are illegal in some countries, (Spain being one of them). Good luck to those who use them but they are not my bag.

What I do find quite funny is motorhomers who tow a car which is nearly the size of the motorhome!!!

[WildBill]

Before I get corrected, let me change my statement about A frames being illegal in Spain. A frames are not illegal in spain but towing a motor vehicle with another motor vehicle is.

[BGD]

WildBill - 2012-07-12 10:32 PM

 

Before I get corrected, let me change my statement about A frames being illegal in Spain. A frames are not illegal in spain but towing a motor vehicle with another motor vehicle is.

 

And, as I understand it, Portugal too. It's always been illegal. But in the past a blind eye seems to have been turned to non-indigenous vehicles in breach of the prohibition.

 

It appears that the Police in both countries are now enforcing this law.

[Derek Uzzell]

The Caravan Club (which presumably has no axe to grind) provides A-frame-towing advice here:

 

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/planning-your-holiday/overseas-holiday-planning/travel-essentials/compulsory-requirements/general-legal-requirements/

 

I don't know how many European countries have a law that prohibits one motor vehicle from towing another motor vehicle (except in an emergency), but I suspect it's most countries. It's only the car-is-now-a-trailer argument that offers any credible defence against prosecution for motor + motor towing in such countries, or possibly that the motoring law of non-UK countries does not apply to UK motorists when it comes to A-frame towing.

 

It would be interesting to learn what Woodlander eventually concludes regarding a trailer versus an A-frame.

[Guest JudgeMental]

aultymer - 2012-07-12 9:21 PM

 

"As I keep saying, I have no axe to grind one way or the other."

So why do you keep on grinding?

 

Because unlike you he is being helpful and providing information for those who may not be conversant with the true situation regards the legality and possible changes in the law in 2014....

 

That most of you A framers appear to believe some metal worker trying to sell you something, who has a rather convenient view on the legalities of a frame towing, is astonishing to be honest. But not surprising as some like to be told what they wish to hear rather then inconvenient truths.

[RogerC]

JudgeMental - 2012-07-13 9:34 AM

aultymer - 2012-07-12 9:21 PM"As I keep saying, I have no axe to grind one way or the other."So why do you keep on grinding?

Because unlike you he is being helpful and providing information for those who may not be conversant with the true situation regards the legality and possible changes in the law in 2014....That most of you A framers appear to believe some metal worker trying to sell you something, who has a rather convenient view on the legalities of a frame towing, is astonishing to be honest. But not surprising as some like to be told what they wish to hear rather then inconvenient truths.

 

I appreciate and understand the law regarding 'A framing' in Spain, hence I would not 'A frame' there or anywhere else on the continent for that matter.  However regarding the UK the only thing that is crystal clear regarding the legalities of A framing in the UK is that it is 'not' crystal clear.  The DfT have no definitive answer and the police/courts have not acted to illustrate/demonstrate illegality ergo it is merely 'barrack room' chat until proven legal or otherwise through the courts.

 

Regarding 2014....who can say what will/won't be passed into legislation? 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

And why a wise man would choose a small folding trailer and smart car combination I would think, (if starting from scratch) Then they could enjoy their investment quite happily anywhere throughout Europe

[pepe63xnotuse]

Also,the NTTA(National Trailer and Towing Association)who,again you wouldn't think have any "axes to grind",state that they ARE illegal(..once again making reference to the fact that they don't meet the " 71/320EEC" directive that has been mentioned previously)

 

Fourth question down on here:

http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/

 

..but what do they know eh!

(..I suppose they'll just be accused of trying' to flog more trailers... *-) )

 

Having said that...*if* they are illegal...then how do folk get insurance cover for them? :-S

[keninpalamos]

I would love to tow my Classic sports car down to Spain without a trailer, ie on an A frame but have seen the Guardia Civil (there's a contradiction) insist that the A frame be removed and as I travel alone most of the time it would create a bit of a problem. I'd end up doing what corpral Jones had to do when he discovered private Godfrey couldn't drive. :'(

[BGD]

pepe63 - 2012-07-13 12:06 PM

 

Also,the NTTA(National Trailer and Towing Association)who,again you wouldn't think have any "axes to grind",state that they ARE illegal(..once again making reference to the fact that they don't meet the " 71/320EEC" directive that has been mentioned previously)

 

Fourth question down on here:

http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/

 

..but what do they know eh!

(..I suppose they'll just be accused of trying' to flog more trailers... *-) )

 

Having said that...*if* they are illegal...then how do folk get insurance cover for them? :-S

 

 

 

Because it is always up to YOU to comply with UK Construction & Use laws and regulations when you drive on UK roads or with the C & U regs of the other country when you drive on the roads of that other country, NOT the Insurance Company.

 

[RogerC]

BGD - 2012-07-14 10:22 AM

pepe63 - 2012-07-13 12:06 PMAlso,the NTTA(National Trailer and Towing Association)who,again you wouldn't think have any "axes to grind",state that they ARE illegal(..once again making reference to the fact that they don't meet the " 71/320EEC" directive that has been mentioned previously)Fourth question down on here:http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/..but what do they know eh!(..I suppose they'll just be accused of trying' to flog more trailers... *-) )Having said that...*if* they are illegal...then how do folk get insurance cover for them? :-S

Because it is always up to YOU to comply with UK Construction & Use laws and regulations when you drive on UK roads or with the C & U regs of the other country when you drive on the roads of that other country, NOT the Insurance Company.

 

But if the DfT can't make a definitive ruling on the subject how are we 'mere mortals' to make head or tail from the myriad of regluations?  Quoting the NTTA as a reference holds no water as they are not a legal legislative body.

 

Until countries do as Spain has done come out with a clear 'yes it is....or no it's not' legal ruling then those that do 'A frame' will continue to do so because it is has not been proven to be illegal by a legislative body.

 

At least in Spain it is clear cut so why don't or won't other countries clarify the matter?

 

[clay]

right, i have used a car a tow a frame for a number of years and as said it is a great bit of kit, tows wonderfully and braking is great. a couple of points firstly as said i would not be looking second hand or go for cheap imitations, i met a guy a few weeks ago on tewksbury cc site and he had just been to the midlands with his car to have a car a tow lookalike fitted, he went home picked up the motorhome and came straight up the motorway , on the way up he felt a vibration pulled off the motorway and found that the attachment on the car had snapped and the car was hanging off. cut to the chase he paid £800 which saved money but the a frame was connected by a pair of i bolts one of which had snapped.could have been catastrophic..the a frame itself i could have knocked up in my garage.. moving on, if you have an electronic odo on car , i have a c1 it will not show any increased mileage on the car whilst ignition is not on.. as far as insurance is concerned i have car and van insured by the same company and have written verification that it is fine to use the a frame, important to get that.. also i have purchased a rear view mirror type camera setup (i have no rear window) so i can keep an eye on the car.. so all i can say now is enjoy your towing but be ware on the motorway of all these caravans we see on their sides sprawled across the carrageways.. now theres something to be looked into (!)

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2012-07-14 11:46 AM....................At least in Spain it is clear cut so why don't or won't other countries clarify the matter?

 

I think you will find that other countries do, Roger. Bruce is pretty certain the Portugal bans towing one vehicle with another, and France's regulations prevent use of an A-frame. The problem is that in all three cases (assumed for Portugal) it is towing of one vehicle by another that is banned, or heavily regulated, and not the A-frame itself. There are exceptions for emergencies, but that is all. In UK, we can even tow on a rope.

 

Towing a car on an A-frame became popular after the Construction and Use Regulations were drafted and, although they have been modified many times since, the use of braked A-frames as employed by motorhomers, has never been covered. As there is no specific regulation or legislation dealing with this, there is no restriction on their use. They are therefore deemed legal under our common law system.

 

However, for the towed car to be legally considered a trailer, it must meet the trailer regulations. These require its brakes to work to the required standard, that it can be reversed, that when it is reversed its brakes must disengage without intervention by the driver, and that it must have a handbrake. It is in these areas that the manufacturer's claims look to me dubious. That is my judgement. I am not prepared to take the word of someone who wishes to sell me something when it conflicts with my judgement. I need convincing, and the sales blandishments do not convince me.

 

You somewhat airily said that when reading the regulations your eyes glazed over. However, it seems you are happy to take the word of someone who has an interest in selling the device, that it meets all the necessary requirements. When you attach your car to the rear of your van via an A-frame it is you, and not the seller, who becomes responsible for the outfit. So glazed or otherwise, it is you, and not the seller, who has to make that judgement. You may think you could sue the seller in the (I think extremely unlikely) circumstances that you were charged with some violation, but you would first have to lose that case, because you would otherwise have no loss to recover.

 

It seems to me that the actual risk of being charged with a violation in UK is very low. The only circumstances I can imagine where this might happen, would be if the towed car was in some way held to have contributed to an accident because it did not comply with regulations: say because its braking was deficient.

 

Once outside the UK the situation is quite different, mainly because the rest of Europe doesn't have common law. Broadly, if something is not authorised, it is deemed illegal. However, in the cases of the three countries above, there is law that says one vehicle may only tow another under very specific circumstances (mainly to remove danger or obstruction on the road), that the towing must effected in specified ways (for example in France only by using a homologated towpole, at low speed, with hazard warning flashers operating), and only to specified locations (for example again in France, to a garage for repair or to a nearby place of safety).

 

Many people relish the differences between the various European states, and few wish to see all states subjected to identical laws and regulation. Some even wish us to leave the EU, because they think we have already become over Europeanised. These legal differences simply provide the evidence that the whole of Europe has not yet been homogenised, but they do mean we have to inform ourselves about the differences when we travel. In the final analysis, it is all those differences that give each country its unique flavour, and is that not the reason we travel?

[PeteH]

Hi

 

In other words as I said on another post:-

 

Why "A" Frame AT ALL? simples!, Try parking a Trailer on a Spanish Campsite (for one)!! Even our own Caravan Club will "look down there noses" at effectively 3 Vehicles on a Pitch!!. Especially if like me you are towing with a 9+M R-V!!.

 

Why has the "A" frame never been Banned?. Not sure, but I suspect because (in the UK) 1) No one has been actually taken to court for it. and like driving 9tonne R-v`s on a B1+E licence (as some do). The courts have never made "case law" out of it Ergo a "grey area".

 

Why do the Spanish and Portuguese make a "big thing" out of something so simple and beneficial? No idea. Its probably as safe as any method. I have never seen a case where any accident has been proved to have been due to "A" framing! (anyone?). However whilst we in GB generally take the view that something is "safe" until proved otherwise. The "Napoleonic" view (guilty until proved innocent remember) is what drives the "continental" approach. Napoleon was a nuisance which ever way you look at it!!! (another "small man" who wanted to rule the world) And at which point I Could go into current politics too!!!

 

My personal opinion? That the Spanish and Portuguese Authorities are Particularly Stupid!!. They have failing economies, desperately in need of "tourist income" ,and they ramp up the persecution of those who choose to "A" frame?. The Americans by contrast promote their use, offer sophisticated braking and towing systems, produce data on what Automatic cars WILL tow etc;. to encourage the use and thereby travel and spending!!.

 

I don't (really) care if its legal or not to "A" frame, Its not IMHO Immoral, and that`s good enough for me!!!

 

Pete

[pepe63xnotuse]

RogerC - 2012-07-14 11:46 AM

 

.... Quoting the NTTA as a reference holds no water as they are not a legal legislative body...

 

...So I assume you wouldn't be quoting them, if they had said that they WERE legal then...? ;-)