A-frames

[bjphillips]

There must be many out there towing with an A-frame and who have mastered the reversing around a corner technique,so as I may eventually wind up with one I'd like to pick theirs brains !!! I have about a 7ft overhang on my motorhome & as I see it the wheels on the towed car would turn to the right if I try to reverse left.The question is if one was to initially turn to the right then quickly steer to the left would the towed cars wheels stay the correct way for reversing left ? Would this work ??? I havent yet bought my tow car but it does seem a lot less hassle than using a trailer. I have read the variouse pros & cons about the legallity of the A-frames so some some response to the reversing aspect of them would be all thats required (?)

[Don Madge]

As I understand it , you can't reverse with them. I could be wrong of course. Mel will put us right he had onr for years. Don

[A W]

I'm sure other responses will give a more technical explanation but in my experience if you can reverse more than 6 feet in a straight line you deserve a medal!!

[Dave Newell]

It is technically impossible to reverse a car on an A frame around a corner because the castor angle of the front wheels of the car mean they will turn to full lock in the wrong direction as soon as you deviate from a straight line.As AW says more than 6ft reversing in a straight line gets you a medal, I should think anyone who could reverse an A frame outfit round a corner would be eligible for sainthood. D.

[david lloyd]

Saint David - Mmmmm has a certain ring about it!

[euroanchor]

It's no different to reversing a wagon and drag, it takes practice,but it is very easy once you have mastered it, the wheels on the car should not turn too much anyway, you just need to take your time. If you need to reverse in a straight line then it is even easier. ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

I think Don and Dave have said it for reversing the A frame.  With the overhang you have, I suspect reversing anything will be pretty difficult.  Short overhangs are highly desirable for towing as there are straight line stability issues with long overhangs as well.

The best combination for reversing any trailer is a short wheelbase towing vehicle with a short overhang, and a nice long trailer.  Look at articulated trucks.  I cut my trailer reversing teeth with an agricultural tractor and trailer and that was by far the easiest reversing combination I have ever met.

If you really need to contemplate reversing round corners, I'd suggest you consider reversing the whole caboodle and putting the car in front of the 'van.  Of course, that may be seen as blasphemy on this forum, but a car with a trailer caravan would be a heck of a lot easier to handle under the circumstances you describe.

There, now I really will get banned!

Regards

[Dave Newell]

Arise Saint Euroanchor (luv the name but don't say it too fast). Actually it's nothing like reversing a "wagon and drag". Try driving your car backwards without holding the steering wheel, within a short distance the steering will swing to full lock in one or other direction unless you are on a completely flat and level billiard table like surface and driving incredibly slowly. With a "wagon and drag" the toeing vehicle is in complete control of the "drag" frame and can direct it accurately where it is required to go. On a motor vehicle the front wheels have a castor angle built in which is what allows them to follow in line when being towed on an A frame. When the outfit is reversed the castor angle works against you and as soon as anything deflects the front wheels of the towed vehicle, a dip in the road surface or a slight push to one side or the other from the towing vehicle for example, they will swing to full lock and if you are trying to reverse turn the outfit they will almost certainly go the wrong way. I suppose if you have a powerful enough tug and don't particularly care you could just push the outfit round and force the front wheels of the towed car to skid but I wouldn't recommend it. D.

[euroanchor]

[QUOTE]Dave Newell - 2006-06-27 7:32 PM Arise Saint Euroanchor (luv the name but don't say it too fast). Actually it's nothing like reversing a "wagon and drag". Try driving your car backwards without holding the steering wheel, within a short distance the steering will swing to full lock in one or other direction unless you are on a completely flat and level billiard table like surface and driving incredibly slowly. With a "wagon and drag" the toeing vehicle is in complete control of the "drag" frame and can direct it accurately where it is required to go. On a motor vehicle the front wheels have a castor angle built in which is what allows them to follow in line when being towed on an A frame. When the outfit is reversed the castor angle works against you and as soon as anything deflects the front wheels of the towed vehicle, a dip in the road surface or a slight push to one side or the other from the towing vehicle for example, they will swing to full lock and if you are trying to reverse turn the outfit they will almost certainly go the wrong way. I suppose if you have a powerful enough tug and don't particularly care you could just push the outfit round and force the front wheels of the towed car to skid but I wouldn't recommend it. D.[/QUOTE] Yep the name is a cracker. . you said it all in your first paragraph , the trick is to go very slowly, the w & d i was refering to is the type with the A frame and turntable, in effect you've got 2 opposing pivot points.I wasn't trying to be cocky, it's just that i have no trouble reversing with an A frame, also if you try to get the back end of the unit pointing as much in a straight line as you can when you need to reverse, i.e. do a big figure S, then you will find it easier. Hope this helps, Just a thought, if your steering lock will lock the wheels in a straight line,try that, and again, take your time. 8-) 8-) :D

[david lloyd]

I'm with euroanchor on this one. The first trick is to keep out of reversing situations but there have been times when I have had to reverse (narrow bridge on a 90 degree angle at a site in Worksop springs to mind) and to date I have no problems. I confess to having once held a Heavy Goods (Class 1) licence and driving all manner of articulated trucks, caravans, horse box trailers etc but the main point in all cases is to take it slowly and use small steering movements to correct the direction. It can be done. Regards, david

[docted]

Why don't you just get in the car and pull the van round the corner? Docted

[bjphillips]

I certainly got some response to that enquiry about reversing with an A-frame, but I'm not sure that anybody answered the question I asked.I do realize that the wheels would probably turn the opersite way to the direction I want to reverse but the point I was asking was that if for instance I wanted to reverse left but I initially turned to the right then the wheels would turn to the left on the towed car ! then if I immediatly turned the steering wheel to the left would the towed car's wheels stay to the left as I reversed around the corner.I hope thats clearer so someone with an A-frame maybe could try it. *-) ;-)

[olley]

Hi a car on a "A" frame is like a standard trailer if you forget about the front wheels, so reversing a 1 tonne car with a 3.5 tonne M/H seems quite possible. But to do it without scrubbing the front tyres especally if you lock the steering, I would think is about as likely as me buying a round in the pub. Olley

[Mel E]

I was invited to give a view, so here goes: 1. Alan Bee has successfully demonstrated reversing a car on his make of A-frame to the DforT, apparently causing them to say 'It may be legal'. (Those in the know will remember that, if an A-Frame turns a car into a trailer (and even that point is debatable legally), then trailers are required to have brakes that un-apply so the trailer can be reversed under full control. Caravans and ordinary trailers have this built into the wheel drum, so that the brakes do not work when the wheel is moving backwards. Cars on A-frames do not, so the overrun brakes apply continuously as you push back. However, they are not so strong as to prevent reverse movement.) 2. A car on an A-frame is like no other trailer, since the front wheels must have the steering lock released so they can castor steer under tow. They do exactly the same in reverse, and very considerable expertise and loads of practise are needed to overcome this. If the car's front wheels are already steering (as when you go round a corner into a traffic jam), then reversing is impossible - the wheels will simply move round to full lock. The greater the length of towing vehicle overhang, the worse this problem is. 3. One solution is, with the front wheels in the straight ahead position, to remove the key from the steering lock. You'll scrub the tyres, but if you go slowly, damage should be very slight. But don't do it on grass! 4. The only real solution is to uncouple the A-frame and drive the car separately. To be able to do this 'on demand', you would, of course, need a second driver. 5. No wagon & drag I have ever seen has the complications of a towed car - i.e., fixed rear wheels but castor steerable front wheels. 6. The straight answer is that, if you are Mr Average, you will not be able to reverse the rig any distance. I am fairly expert with trailers, having towed and reversed a 35 foot glider trailer on numerous occasions, but I found it very difficult, and impossible to do under certain conditions (wheels not styraight-ahead, for example). Hope that helps.

[Mel E]

I should have added that, having towed a car for some 6 years on Mr Bee's make of A-frame (one of the best, I believe), I found it nothing but trouble. I was only saved from a major calamity on several occasions because I'd fitted the car with temp & pressure sensors on each wheel, radio linked to the m'home cab. When the brakes failed to release properly after braking, the temp in the car tyres from the braking friction was rapidly over 85 degrees C. Towing with a 4.2 tonne motorhome, the extra drag was undetectable. Although fixed by the supplier after a year of complaints, the problem still recurred intermittently, probably due to damage to the car's brakes and bearings. Others I know think they are marvellous. I increasingly believe them to be dangerous.

[euroanchor]

IMHO if people have so much trouble with A frames, then why use them, I certainly have no wish to insult or question anybody's driving abilities,but you would be better off with a trailer, there are no legal grey areas, the unit is fully braked,easy as pie to reverse,your insurance wont give you problems and you still have to pay the extra parking or ferry charges,the trailer can be used to carry many other things,and there is no danger of our continental police giving you on the spot fines. Maybe as an HGV driver for 20 odd years gives me an advantage with an A frame, but give me a trailer anyday of the week. These are my opinions and they are not allways those of a sane person :D Good luck in your quest for the ultimate answer