Mercedes woes

[Guest Bill]

I have a pre-Sprinter Merc and am very happy indeed with it - not so sure about the new ones though. The following appeared in the motoring section of Saturday's "Telegraph": My van the terrible We run a 1997 Mercedes Sprinter Van that has done 109,000 miles. It has endured a catalogue of faults since new - the final straw came when the steering wheel became disconnected from the front wheels, fortunately at low speed. The vehicle has been fully serviced by a Mercedes agent since new. The consequences of this latest fault could have been disastrous. Is there an organisation I can report such things to? P.M., Bath

[Guest Sprinter man]

I always wonder about drivers who have all these problems with van / cars etc; the way they drive may be the clue? I can speak with experiance having driven over one million miles. I have seen the way some vans are driven i.e flat out, braking late and taking corners far to fast, it is no wonder that they have trouble. The Sprinter is by far the best van on the road, just drive on any motorway and see which van is the most popular and I do not think it would be if they were as bad as all that.

[Guest Clive]

I still believe in my Sprinter, this based on 42 years working in the vehicle engineering business. The extra step that Mercedes goto to ensure the engineering is right and the extensive testing still exists. However there will always be the exception and it looks like this posting (the first I have seen on Mercedes on any motorhome forum) is an exception. I would suspect that the steering problem may have more to do with the previous service than the engineering design and initial build. But I don,t know. However the smoothness of 5 cylinders, rear wheel drive, no cam belt and a service organisation world wide that is the envy of the rest do come at a price. For our "pride and joy" we were prepared to pay that price and remain convinced it was the right decision.

[Guest Bill]

Unlike Clive, I have sen a number of complaints about Sprinters - though nothing on the scale of Ducatos, Boxers etc. I certainly agree that the typical motorhome owner will drive more carefully than white van man. One of MMM's competitors ran an article a few months back, in which they said Merc were - shall we say - resting on their laurels as regards quality control. My concern is that the Sprinter engine is a 4-valve dohc - that's a racing-car engine, not a van engine! Seems to me that high-pressure common-rail is intrinsically less reliable than old-fashioned indirect injection (though I have heard it is unavoidable in order to comply with new emission laws). I have also heard that the elctronic controller on the Sprinter's common-rail is a bit prone to go into emergency-limp-home mode as a result of false alarms. A bit embarrasing to be suddenly limited to 30mph when doing 80 in the fast lane of the M25!

[Guest Neal]

Interesting, that one. I recall seeing a large (ish) Merc Sprinter on the North Circular road a few years ago (whilst sitting in everlasting traffic). I belonged to a professional Rock 'n' Roll band, Mark Keeley's "Good Rockin' Tonite", and was suitably sign-written to advertise their "trade". However, on the R.H. rear door, also professionally sign written, was a "warning" to others who may have felt that a Merc Sprinter was an aspirational move for future transport requirements. It outlined briefly all the problems the band had experienced with the van and the lack of support and acknowledgement from Mercedes and their dealers. It summarised by stating that they would never, EVER buy another Mercedes! You can't please all of the people all of the time. Regards Neal

[Guest Brian Ramsden]

You won't see as many complaints about Mercedes vans as about Sevel built vans simply because there are so many more Sevel vans sold than Mercedes. Whether there are proportionally more or less complaints about Sevel vans is the real question - to which I don't know the answer, but perhaps someone out there does.

[Guest Mike C]

Hello Brian, Sevel built vans including Peugeot, Fiat and Citroen represent approximately 84% of motorhome base vehicles against 9% for Mercedes which includes Vitmo and Sprinter. The VW LT is basically a Sprinter in disguise and with the T4/T5 represents approx 2.5%. Looking at the JD Power survey for cars Mercedes no longer holds a good reliability position so much so that there are strong rumours that they are working very hard to improve their rating. This may not apply to the commercial vehicle unit. From my own fleet experience (mainly Ford, VW, Mercedes, Isuzu and Toyota) the only truly reliable vans are Japanese. Having said that one of the worst vans we ran was a Toyota Hi-ace but Toyota worked hard to fix and eventually replace the van which is more than can be said for the others. To my mind the problem is not so much how reliable one make is against another (although important) but how willing the Retailer together with the Manufacturer is to resolve problems quickly and correctly. For Motorhomes add in the Coachbuilder and the living space equipment manufacturer plus any other third party parts providers such as Security equipment and the position becomes even more difficult. Just as an aside how many reading this thread are aware that some coachbuilder warranties only apply to continuous journeys outside the UK of less than 90 days.

[Guest Clive]

The 1997 Sprinter mentioned in the original posting would not have been common rail, it will be the bigger less stressed 2.9 litre engine and long floor mounted geat lever - same as mine, 97 vintage! So, its not a racing engine but a solid smooth beast! But these still oculy the "fast" lane on our motorways! By and large you get what you pay for. Different subject, what 4X4 do I get to replace my 19 year old Discovery? And why?

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Mike C: I'm interested in your assertion that " some coachbuilder warranties only apply to continuous journeys outside the UK of less than 90 days." As you're obviously as obsessive about accuracy as me, I'm reluctant to say I don't believe you, so I'd be grateful if you would identify the coachbuilders who are including this limitation in their warranty terms. It seems a very odd restriction to lay on a motorhome, and how could the coachbuilder possibly 'police' it?

[Guest Mike Chapman]

Hello Derek, The coachbuilder is Swift Group and the statement is on page 3 of the motorhome warranty document under the general heading "General terms applying to all three years of the warranty period". I seem to remember that there was a similar clause in the Explorer Group Warranty. As to how they would police it I have no idea. You are correct, when it comes to warranty I AM obsessive about the fine details. This comes from a very bitter experience with a warranty claim involving a VW retailer and VW over electrical faults on a VW Passat. The vehicle kept unlocking and also the dashboard pod would suddenly go haywire. To cut a very long story short after three months, many letters and telephone calls with VW claiming that there was nothing wrong with the car, the dealer gave up trying to get the problem resolved so I initiated legal action. This had the desired effect and it was found that the cause was the VW approved and dealer fit alarm system which had been designed specifically for the vehicle but VW had failed to notify them that the wiring had been modified. Hence my second to last paragraph. I now keep a detailed log for all my vehicles and put everything in writing (sometimes recorded delivery) even a detailed request to carry out a service. Regards, Mike C.

[Guest Mike T]

My short experiences with Mercedes Sprinter’s is yes they are fast in a stright line but I dont think they handle as good as the Maix Chassis.I would not buy one but that’s me personal choice for 2 years I drove a Mercedes Sprinter Luton van it had two cylinder heads go ant-roll bar Brackets snapping and gear box problems 4 teeth snapped on the final drive gear out of the gearbox !! the mechanic had the box out in 30 min’s while I was still waiting for my lift home and mercedes had the parts in stock what does that tell you !! and it it's a lot cheaper to replace 5th gear on a Fiat should it ever go !

[Guest Mel E]

There is a key FINANCIAL fact here: you pay substantially more for a Sprinter than for most of the opposition. If it does not have reliability and good servicing then what's the point of spending the extra? My first Merc car 20 years ago was a dream. Compared to the opposition it was so much better built. But the opposition have improved out of all recognition. You buy a new car, you no longer have an A4 sheet of problems for the first service like you used to. Unfortunately, my new Merc 6 years ago had more problems than any car - including Ciroens, I'd had for years - or since. And I waited months for one part - yes, MONTHS. So I'm unlikely ever to touch Merc again.

[Guest Norma]

We've run Merc vans, including one sprinter for the last 15 years. We've downsized, now, to a Vito. All the vans (5) have cost us considerably less in running costs than our one Fiat. The only car we had problems with was - a Fiat! Vowed I'd never touch a Fiat again! When the vans were loaded (we are in television and conference industry - heavy equipment) the Mercs felt very spongy and therefore not attractive to us for a motorhome. We have also chatted with a caravan/motorhome dealer who used to be an engineer with Merc, and he reckons that the Merc chassis is not as steady as the Sevel. But by golly a far superior van - the heater heats the van and the wind screen gets properly washed!

[Guest Bill]

Re Posting 8 Clive: I am interested in what you say about the 1997 Sprinter having a different engine. I hadn’t realised that. When did the engines change? And what were they before that?

[Guest Clive]

Bill, Up to the end of 97/98 the larger Sprinter engines were all 2.9 liter with different levels of tune. Ours is a 312 which was the maximum power available at the time. I think it goes like a roacket, its been up to 90 MPH before the wife scowled at me loudly. But I will always go for the bigger engine as it makes easy driving. I don't like automatics. It is NOT common rail. It has a mechanical injector pump that is controlled electronically. So the accelerator is fly by wire but essentially the engine is not. It has no catalist (thank god). Later more powerfull models are 2.7 liter common rail, sprintshift option etc. When comparing vehicles an interesting web site is that which lists all UK recalls. have a look at :- www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/default.asp But these as you will deduce dont tell the full story. But all new vehicles have improved a lot as has already been said. We have just purchased a new Vauxhall Agila and the quality of build wiring and components is excellant.

[Guest Bill]

Clive Thanks very much. I never thought I’d say “fortunately” I cannot afford a new one, but that’s the way it looks! I totally agree with you about automatics, and I think common-rail is a surefire way to destroy the reliability and long life associated with diesels. Our American cousins have got it exactly right when they say “they aint no substitute for cubic inches”, i.e. if you want more power put in a bigger engine, don’t try to hot up what you have. In light aircraft, where reliability REALLY matters, the rev-counters are redlined at only 2700 rpm – that tells us something. The Bulldog I fly is only 200bhp, but the engine is 360 cubic inches (or 6.5 litres for those who want it in French).

[Guest Clive]

Flying, well that something I have done twice and its fantastic. Once in a 2 seater and once in a 747 landing at Hong Kong,s old airport, although in reality I was at Cranebank in a sim for that one. But If you give up flying you could afford a yank motorhome. The last BIG engine I had was 330 cubic inch (5.6 liter), 6 cylinder and sounded like a sewing machine. It was made by Bedford in 1972 TK based Coach ! 90 BHP. So far I have spent the last 2 days underneath my 13 year old Land Rover wire brushing and re-paining the chassis having concluded that with a 7 year old low mileage Merc motorhome (also with a re-painted chassis within a few days of delivery) and a brand new Vauxhall Agila on the drive I cannot justify a new BIG 4X4 for me as well - well not yet anyway! The sunshine the last 2 days has been fantastic. Global warming? If you believe it bring it on! (Where's Pol?)

[fred22]

Hi, just purchased a 1999 Autotrail Scout with mercedes 2.9 TD. Very pleased with outfit but, when I test drove it. the only problem I could see was the "long" brake pedal travel and came to the conclusion that new pads were required. We purchased privately and so put it into my garage to have them checked. Pads ok pipes,joints etc no leaks and a new master cylinder fitted no joy. A call by my garage to the commercial Mercedes dealer a few miles away bought the response that some sprinters do have a large amount of brake pedal and yes, they do sell a lot of master cylinders. No solution was given(if there is one), are others similar.? Brakes work ok but the pedal travel is the biggest I have ever experienced. Fred

[davenewellhome]

The earlier Sprinters (pre 2001 I think) were known for poor brakes and a long pedal. Looking at the previous comments on this thread all I can say is a few years ago I was fitting cruise to an LDV van for a light haulage contractor from North Devon. He said he used to run a fleet of Sprinters but every one needed a new back axle due to excessive diff wear (a few actually collapsed if I remember correctly) at around 150,000 miles. He replaced the entire fleet with LDV convoys and they were much more reliable. I seem to remember his main work involved transporting helicopter engines to Italy by road so his vans did seriously big mileages, around 120,000 per year each as I recall. D.

[icelander]

How come a lot of Merc vans with not many years on them have rust showing on their bodywork. Compare that to a Toyota van of the same age and the Toyota looks spotless. Mercs look scruffy!

[Thai Bry]

"However the smoothness of 5 cylinders, rear wheel drive, no cam belt and a service organisation world wide that is the envy of the rest do come at a price. For our "pride and joy" we were prepared to pay that price and remain convinced it was the right decision."

We've just taken delivery of our new pride and joy - well 8 weeks ago now!!. Brand new van on a Merc 416 chasis. Auto sprintshift version. Apart from it feeling a bit "trucky" when setting off - high ratio gear feeling- all seems fine. So as you can expect - I'm reading all this with a very keen interest!!!

I'm sure it was the right decision only time will tell!!

Thai

[Bazza454]

[QUOTE]icelander - 2007-06-12 9:29 AM How come a lot of Merc vans with not many years on them have rust showing on their bodywork. Compare that to a Toyota van of the same age and the Toyota looks spotless. Mercs look scruffy![/QUOTE]

I think that you should compare like with like.

Sprinter vans are generally used as high mileage delivery vehicles, regularly serviced but not a lot of TLC to the bodywork, whereas Toyota vans are more often than not "lifestyle" vehicles.

Look at the range of Mercedes and Toyota vans and you cannot compare.

Sprinter vs Transit - yes, but not Sprinter vs Toyota.....  

[mikemoss]

While I can't comment on Mercedes vans as I've never had one, I can speak from experience on Mercedes cars. Two W124 series (E class) of 1987 and 1990 vintage had that 'hewn from the solid' feel that Mercs are supposed to be known for. OK, they were getting on a bit when I bought them but both were pretty reliable despite high mileage. However - and it's a big however - my current Mercedes is a W210 (E Class) from 1999 and while it's much better to drive, faster, more economical, smoother, quieter etc than the older ones it is not nearly so well made with rust being a major problem. It was in about 1997/8 that Mercedes had a new boss who decided that previous models had been over-engineered and that new ones would not be. Great. The upshot is that Mercedes have suffered a severe setback in quality and customer satisfaction that is only now being corrected. E Class, C Class and S Class models were all affected by rust as well as a host of electrical and electronic gremlins -there's a wealth of evidence on the various Merc-related web forums by the way. To give Mercedes their due, under the 30-year Mobilo Life scheme they are putting right almost all the rust problems providing the cars have been serviced regularly by a main dealer. As I said at the beginning of this ramble, I've no idea if the vans were similarly affected by 'innovations' such as the used of stretched metal to save cost and weight. I, too, have seen plenty of relatively young Mercedes vans with rust in all sorts of unlikely places. From car experience, pre-1997/8 Mercedes are the real McCoy, the latest ones are getting back to where they should have been and the ones in between can be a real disappointment if you're unlucky.

[Dave Newell]

Funnily enough I've had a customer in this morning who has switched from Merc (after 24 years) to Suzuki! His last Merc (4 years old) is in the bodyshop now apparently having all the doors and wings repainted to deal with severe rust. D.

[Thai Bry]

Dave

Please don't let me have sleepless nights now that we've got a Merc on a 416 chasis.

Thai