pepe63xnotuse Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Just a bit of "research",for possible future purchases... As a base vehicle,our Renault Master has very little in the way of bells'n'whisles(...none of this "esp" malarky..) So I'm just curious as to the "real world" benefits,of base vehicles with the various "traction aids" fitted "nowadays".. ;-) (e.g This type of witchcraft... http://www.fiatcamper.com/product/esp_and_traction_plus ) In terms of grip on wet/muddy pitches/fields,what sort of "real" difference does this stuff make ? (..and does it go some way towards making up for the fact that 3.5 - 4 tonne+,tail-heavy vehicles, should *really* be RWD,preferably twin,rather than being dragged along by their fronts....?) Thanks... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 We have some of that there witchcraft, but we don't have a tail heavy van, ours tends to be nose heavy in normal use. Does/has it worked? yes and no. On several occasions when I've been a bit heavy footed on steep gravel slopes the tc has kicked in, no idea how much it helped as to prove that would have to go back and try again with it switched off. I have got bogged down on a very wet muddy field on purpose (well there's a story behind that), the tc was activating for maybe 30yards until I stopped the van, couple of days later it would not extract itself (no big suprise) and required a Kabota and 4x4 to shift it. so you could say it went 30yards further than if hadden't had tc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Thanks for that Colin... It's just that I have no experience of any of these type of "gizmos"..as none of our vehicles have ever had them fitted. Our current '08 Renault(..although generally far better on grip than our previous x250 100hp pug ever was),is lacking any "traction gadgets"... So I was curious as to whether they would be something worth seeking out,when looking to change.. Thanks again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I have "HSA" on the tranny which is hill start assist, this is very good. The secret with "ESP" is to turn it off if your on snow or stuck in mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskers Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I have had an X250 PVC with esp for nearly 3 years. Not once has she lost grip in mud, gravel or snow. The trouble is that one is not sure if that success is due to the ESP or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yeah,I suppose that's the problem really...unless you're going to tackle the same piece road/track,under indentical conditions and in an identical van(all be it,one without "driver aids"),how are are you *really* going to know...? ;-) Although,when it come to trundling across CLs/fields,I think the main limiting factors on our "gizmo free" van are the tyres,along with lack of ground clearance... (..having said that,an LSD emulating "device",would be nice... ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 The most successful bit of kit I have seen on a front wheel drive motorhome on a flooded bog called Stratford on Avon show ground was Snow Chains on the front tyres. Matey got off unaided. I although rear wheel drive was towed off. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 We've still got a couple of sets of 'chains somewhere,that I bought for previous vans... (a set for an '03 RWD transit-unused and set for an X250 Pug-used once) but to be honest,on the occasion that I did use them on the Pug(on a muddy,farm site),they were a bit of a pain in the ar*e to put on and remove,as it involved getting absolutely plastered in mud.. (lol) ..I was also very wary incase they struck a rock etc and "let go" (..in fact one of the side "retaining chains" did break). :-S I suppose it's this "reluctance" to strap stuff the wheels, that has led me to check-out the "built-in" techy stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 So that's four wheel drive, diff locks all round and cross country tyres then. You can get conversions on a LWB Defender?? C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 We had esp or similar on our first van and, when push came to shove, on a snowy slope, we had to be towed up! That version worked by using the ABS in reverse, so if one wheel started spinning, it applied the brake to try to divert more power to the non-spinning wheel. Was never quite convinced by the concept, as driving uphill on a difficult surface with one wheel braked somehow seems counter intuitive. In any event it didn't work! A limited slip diff would be a better bet, IMO, if it a proper one. Quaife engineering, but not cheap, and you have to give them your diff casing because they re-build the new innards into it,so your van is parked with dangly drive shafts until completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 My Rapido had Fiat ASR fitted (which is probably what you had, Brian). I credited it with getting off a very muddy CL when one wheel tended to lose all traction, and found it quite useful. My car, however, with ESP fitted (something entirely different), is almost undriveable in snow unless it is switched off - and luckily there is a button to do so - as the computer is forever trying to correct for slipping using parameters generally intended for much less slippy surfaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Clive - 2012-08-01 3:01 PM So that's four wheel drive, diff locks all round and cross country tyres then. You can get conversions on a LWB Defender?? C. Don't joke.........(lol) ......We're still looking for a 2nd "knock-about"/multi-use vehicle(.. a mid sized van?)but Defenders,possibly a 130 pickup(..giving the option of fitting a box or demount' on the back)has certainly crossed my mind,for use as a basic camper' ... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 As i said earlier esp should be turned off on mud, snow etc. Simples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 ips - 2012-08-01 7:12 PM As i said earlier esp should be turned off on mud, snow etc. Simples So...am I now correct in thinking that it follows,that if ESP needs turning OFF when on poor surfaces(so in effect reverting to a normal,"unequipped" state?) ,then it isn't really meant as to aid "traction" in those conditions then?.... :-S I had assumed(wrongly by the sounds!),that was one of the reasons for it..? :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Fiat have ASR and ESP, the 'traction control' is ASR(anti slip regulation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 pepe63 - 2012-08-01 7:31 PM ips - 2012-08-01 7:12 PM As i said earlier esp should be turned off on mud, snow etc. Simples So...am I now correct in thinking that it follows,that if ESP needs turning OFF when on poor surfaces(so in effect reverting to a normal,"unequipped" state?) ,then it isn't really meant as to aid "traction" in those conditions then?.... :-S I had assumed(wrongly by the sounds!),that was one of the reasons for it..? :$ The ASR is essentially for traction control (and as Brian says, effectively using the ABS components it will brake the wheel that loses traction, thereby mimicing to some extent the effects of a limited slip diff). ESP is Electronic Stability Program, which is designed to correct for overall loss of control of the vehicle, such as in the event of an imminent skid. The Bosch overview here is useful: http://www.bosch-esperience.co.uk/uk/language1/how_does_esp_work.html ....the problem is that it relies on getting an element of grip from the road that is not there in mud or snow, and also in these conditions tries to compensate for the lack of directional control, often in direct conflict to your own attempts to do so (being dependent partially on steering direction). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 Ah! I see..thanks for explaining that...So it's really something with ASR,that I need to look out for then(..Fiat's "Traction Plus" sounds promising but I assume that's a "new" thing?...) ..and reading that initial Fiat link again,it appears as if a vehicle needs to be equipped with ESP,in order to get ASR (..& Hill Holder etc),therefore I assume it uses the same "gubbins"..? :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Personally, TC and ESP sounds to me like just an awful lot more electronics, computer interference, and systems just waiting to go (very expensively) wrong. I'm a great believer in keeping it simple, so far as vehicle mechanics, and electronics, are concerned. Then it's potentially a lot cheaper, and there is far less to go faulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wirralian Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 A question for ips. I have an 07 plated Transit. How do you turn off the ESP?!! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Wirralian - 2012-08-02 10:45 PM A question for ips. I have an 07 plated Transit. How do you turn off the ESP?!! John I know I'm not IPS, but on my '10 Transit you hit the ESP button on the dash to turn it off. (a bit like using the "Start" button to close Windows ;-) ) It is possible that an '07 transit does not have ESP fitted. It was originally a cost option, which was made standard, with (AFAIK) all Transits from late '07 build having it as standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Sorry been mad at work. As stated by my learned friend you turn it off on the ESP switch on the dash, it defaults to ON whenever you turn engine on. If you are not aware of this function then one assumes that your trannie doesnt have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wirralian Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 My Transit does not have the facility to turn off the ESP. Must be the victim of one of those 'cost options'. The owners' handbook does show where the switch should be on the dash, but it is blanked off on my van. John :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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