flicka Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/News/Manufacturers/Elddis-announce-revolutionary-new-construction-method/_ch1_nw2298_pg1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Seems like a good idea if it works :-S...............although the majority of leaks seem to come from windows and skylights rarely the panel joins ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zokPBr0xdDQ Doesn't look that 'revolutionary' - just bonding instead of screwing - but it's still the same softwood frames and alu sheet rather than a completely new composite construction. Only 2 models, both of them caravans, get GRP side panels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 pelmetman - 2012-08-18 7:54 AM Seems like a good idea if it works :-S...............although the majority of leaks seem to come from windows and skylights rarely the panel joins ;-) Although it's far from uncommon for poorly sealed windows/roof-lights to let water in, this type of water ingress is usually obvious and normally easily rectified. Water entering through panel joints is often much less apparent and, by the time the problem has been recognised (and particularly if the leisure-vehicle has been constructed using a traditional wood-based bodywork framework) the resultant damage may be extensive and require major and expensive repairs. I don't know what information you have to justify your opinion that "the majority of leaks seem to come from windows and skylights rarely the panel joins". It may well be the case that there are significantly more windows/skylight water leaks with motorhomes than leaks through panel-joints (though I'm not aware of any statistics to support such a statement) but leaks through panel-joints are very definitely not rare. More details of the Elldis SoLiD system are provided here http://www.practicalcaravan.com/news/2013-new-models-elddis-avanté It should be noted that (unlike, say, Hymer or Eura Mobil) wood will still be used in SoLiD construction, just less of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Think I will stick with German vans thanks, who have a track record of using this so called "advanced" technology for years! With no wood to rot or screws to work loose and degrade either.... *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Oh the pleasures that we humble tuggers seem to be missing out on, why cannot we tuggers have these leaks also :D :$ :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-08-18 8:50 AM I don't know what information you have to justify your opinion that "the majority of leaks seem to come from windows and skylights rarely the panel joins". It may well be the case that there are significantly more windows/skylight water leaks with motorhomes than leaks through panel-joints (though I'm not aware of any statistics to support such a statement) but leaks through panel-joints are very definitely not rare. Purely anecdotal Derek ;-).................A couple of my old mans campers leaked from the windows, the Pilote leaked like a sieve through a skylight *-).............all though he never had them long enough I suppose to find out if the seams leaked as well :-S I still have the hand written list of faults that my FIL wrote out prior to taking the van back to Marquis for them to be sorted............one of the problems......a leaking window *-)..................You wouldn't think 22 years later that the industry would still be having the same problems 8-) Progress eh? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Time will be the judge of engineering sense or marketing spin! If anyone who buys one now can let us all know how it fares in two years time and again in five years and again in ten years then we will all know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 As they are a British manufacturer no doubt they will use the cheapest adhesives & sealants they can get their hands on, not only will they leak they will fall apart as well :D Syd has just been very lucky the Lunar caravan we had you could have drowned in it with the amount of water in the walls. Like Eddie I'll stick with German vans. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Syd - 2012-08-18 9:54 AM Oh the pleasures that we humble tuggers seem to be missing out on, why cannot we tuggers have these leaks also :D :$ :$ I assume you have your tongue firmly in your cheek. Some years ago I was discussing water-ingess damage with a caravan dealer. He said that his normal expectation was that any new caravan he sold would show signs of water ingress within 5 years. His opinion was that, with the traditional type of wood-framed bodywork employed in the construction of most caravans, the need to build 'light', and the lack of suspension, joint-seal failure verged on the inevitable. http://www.caravanbuyersguide.co.uk/interior.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 lennyhb - 2012-08-18 4:11 PM As they are a British manufacturer no doubt they will use the cheapest adhesives & sealants they can get their hands on, not only will they leak they will fall apart as well :D... I don't think you've properly read the links provided that describe the Elddis construction method. The adhesive manufacturer with whom Elldis has developed the SoLiD methodology is Henkel. http://www.henkel.com/about-henkel-11779.htm Henkel constructional adhesives are used widely in motorhome manufacture. Hobby uses Henkel adhesives exclusively, so it would not surprise me if other German motorhome manufacturers also do. If you look into it, you might well find that your beloved Hymers are stuck together with Henkel glue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Derek, some years ago I worked in the industry one thing I leant about British manufacturers was price before quality if they can find a way of cutting corners and building it cheaper they will. Regardless of what their press releases say I wouldn't trust a British built van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 lennyhb - 2012-08-18 6:12 PM Derek, some years ago I worked in the industry one thing I leant about British manufacturers was price before quality if they can find a way of cutting corners and building it cheaper they will. Regardless of what their press releases say I wouldn't trust a British built van. Every manufacturer in the world has to look for cost savings or rick bankruptcy as all their competitors move to improve their own profitability. To take UK manufacturers out of context unless you have comparative experience of European or Asian manufacturers to draw upon is, perhaps, unjustified? I have had UK made vans for over 40 years and apart from the 70s when they all leaked and the 80s when most of them leaked, I have not had any problems. Mind you my experience is limited to Autosleeper, Autotrail or Autocruise since around the early 90s. And yes, I do have a damp meter and I do check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Tracker - 2012-08-18 6:35 PM Mind you my experience is limited to Autosleeper, Autotrail or Autocruise since around the early 90s. Must be a Autohomes next then Rich :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 A 10 year water ingress warranty sounds good, but I'll bet they will insist on an annual "service" to qualify as they do now. Apart from keeping the warranty valid the "services" I've had to pay for were worse than useless. If this new construction system is as good as they say then an annual check must surely be unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The secret is to offer a 10 year warranty ;-).....................then go bust when the first ones are due, or before if your building quality is cr*p *-).............. I'm such a cynic :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 My old Austin Maestro had a bonded roof and that never leaked so it is possible if you use the right adhesive. I would be far more impressed if they did away with their Traditional frame and went for a fully bonded panel with bonded in plastic mounts thus if there was a leak it 'wood' not be so catastrophic. Fiddling round with a new sealer and glued on externals seems to be a case of being unable to bite the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Good luck to Elddis. I had one of their caravans and a Voyager 2 motorhome. Didn't keep them long but they were problem free. Also, as part of a works exchange, I visited their factory to look at how they built quality into the process. Since my Elddis days, I had two Swift motorhomes and both leaked. On the first, Swift replaced the roof without quibble [common fault]. On the second, the dealer refused to take responsibility; Swift intervened on our behalf and all was well. Since then I moved on to an early Arto for 5 years and now my Hymer currently for seven years. Neither have leaked. Unfortunately for the UK manufacturers, whilst I would love to buy on of their products, even if they could now claim to match the build quality I'm now used to, why would I risk having two leaks in six years of ownership when the Germans can provide 12 years without leaks. My gut feel is that the UK build to a price and try to get the best quality and showroom appeal they can for that cost; the Germans build to a standard and charge a high initial price for their products. Both are valid business strategies. British workers can build to high standards of quality - look at the truck and car plants. Perhaps the UK strategists know their core market very well, and those of us who do not fit, turn to the continentals. Everyone is happy because we end up with a wide variation of products that suit widely different needs. Shame it won't last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 lennyhb - 2012-08-18 4:11 PM As they are a British manufacturer no doubt they will use the cheapest adhesives & sealants they can get their hands on, not only will they leak they will fall apart as well :D Syd has just been very lucky the Lunar caravan we had you could have drowned in it with the amount of water in the walls. Like Eddie I'll stick with German vans. (lol) Evidently Elddis have teamed up with Henkel (German Adhesive Manufacturer) the makers of 'Sikaflex' just about the best on the market. So perhaps not such a 'publicity stunt' after all. And they are offering a 10 year warranty. (as they ALL should be doing,Including the Germans, if they want to keep trading). Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-08-20 11:14 AM lennyhb - 2012-08-18 4:11 PM As they are a British manufacturer no doubt they will use the cheapest adhesives & sealants they can get their hands on, not only will they leak they will fall apart as well :D Syd has just been very lucky the Lunar caravan we had you could have drowned in it with the amount of water in the walls. Like Eddie I'll stick with German vans. (lol) Evidently Elddis have teamed up with Henkel (German Adhesive Manufacturer) the makers of 'Sikaflex' just about the best on the market. So perhaps not such a 'publicity stunt' after all. And they are offering a 10 year warranty. (as they ALL should be doing,Including the Germans, if they want to keep trading). Ray Are you sure that's correct about Henkel making "Sikaflex"? As far as I'm aware "Sikaflex" adhesives continue to be manufactured by SIKA AG (a Swiss corporation), with Henkel as a direct competitor to SIKA. GOOGLE does reveal a link between the two organistations as, in 2010, SIKA acquired the construction sealant business of Henkel Japan, together with its trademarked brands. Otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, SIKA and Henkel remain separate entities producing their own ranges of adhesives/sealants. A list of relevant Henkel brands is shown here http://www.henkel.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_uke/hs.xsl/813_UKE_HTML.htm and the "Teroson" range will include adhesive/sealant products equivalent to the "Sikaflex" ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Elddis are saying they are doing away with a lot of the screws, which is good news. But what is likely to happen at roof joints between metal roof and front/rear moulded sections? I've had water ingress in this area and expansion and movement seems to be the enemy Do the Germans glue this type of joint or do they not use this method of construction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Derek, You are correct, I must have seen the 'takeover of Henkel japan' and thought they were now one company. Still good adhesives though, and nice to know that a British company trusts it's products and new procedures enough to offer a 10 year warranty. a bit like Bailey really ! a shame they decided to 'back down'. It didn't do their Image much good. What are they worried about ?? IF they trust their 'Alutec System'. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Tracker - 2012-08-18 6:35 PM lennyhb - 2012-08-18 6:12 PM Derek, some years ago I worked in the industry one thing I leant about British manufacturers was price before quality if they can find a way of cutting corners and building it cheaper they will. Regardless of what their press releases say I wouldn't trust a British built van. Every manufacturer in the world has to look for cost savings or rick bankruptcy as all their competitors move to improve their own profitability. To take UK manufacturers out of context unless you have comparative experience of European or Asian manufacturers to draw upon is, perhaps, unjustified? I have had UK made vans for over 40 years and apart from the 70s when they all leaked and the 80s when most of them leaked, I have not had any problems. Mind you my experience is limited to Autosleeper, Autotrail or Autocruise since around the early 90s. And yes, I do have a damp meter and I do check! I'm with you tracker. With the exception of a Rapido we had for five years we have always had British caravans and motorhomes and none have ever had water ingress problems. I also have a very professional water meter left over from the days when I was in construction. For the record the Rapido was also fine even though it was French! Just wish those who keep knocking British products would shut their traps. If like us more people would buy British and support the UK industry like the Germans do theirs we would not be bumping along on the floor of a recession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Retread24800 - 2012-08-18 8:11 PMMy old Austin Maestro had a bonded roof and that never leaked so it is possible if you use the right adhesive. I would be far more impressed if they did away with their Traditional frame and went for a fully bonded panel with bonded in plastic mounts thus if there was a leak it 'wood' not be so catastrophic. Fiddling round with a new sealer and glued on externals seems to be a case of being unable to bite the bullet.I'm with you as well. Leaving timber in seems to be only doing half a job. I'm sure the adhesive would bond just as well to aluminium extrusions. Would add a little to the cost but would probably pay in terms of increased consumer confidence. The aero industry don't use wood in a structural sense any more and the planes seem to hang together OK, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 everhopeful - 2012-08-20 7:37 PM Elddis are saying they are doing away with a lot of the screws, which is good news. But what is likely to happen at roof joints between metal roof and front/rear moulded sections? I've had water ingress in this area and expansion and movement seems to be the enemy Do the Germans glue this type of joint or do they not use this method of construction? There seems to be an unshakeable belief among certain forum members that 'foreign' motorhome manufacturers (particularly German ones) not only construct motorhomes using state-of-the art methodology, but also that every motorhome they build is perfect. Regarding water ingress, I refer you to the 2nd paragraph of JudgeMental's 27 April 2012 posting (and 'thomas''s later comment) on the following thread http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=27410&start=1 Unless a coachbuilt motorhome's roof is joint-free, there will always be the potential for roof-joints to fail and water ingress to occur. I can't comment on other makes, but my Hobby has transverse joints between the main aluminium-skinned roof section and the overcab GRP moulding and the rear aluminium panel. Both transverse joints have screws at regular intervals along their length and it's difficult to see how those screws could be avoided given the method of construction Hobby has chosen to employ. The types of plastic front/rear mouldings found on many coachbuilt motorhomes are usually not found on caravans. Although Elddis may be able to fit 'no screws' roofs to caravans, it remains to be seen whether that's practicable for their motorhomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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