Are we the only ones having after sales problems.

[Mickydripin]

 

GEORDIEB

 

Posted: 24 August 2012

 

Hi Geordie NO you are not the only one that has trouble with there after sales problems I went through three years of hell with solicitors and dealer problems.

I think they are all the same I have yet to find a good one though there must be one out there (I think).

Sometimes I feel like throwing the whole lot up and selling my motorhome even though I have had the replacment for over 17 months.

It is only with the help of this forum and it`s members that I have been able to keep sane and sort things out..

 

Mike.

[Colin Leake]

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-24 10:37 PM

 

Colin Leake - 2012-08-24 5:17 PM

 

I'm really sorry to hear of the problems you are having, but it does illustrate that German Motorhomes are not as bullet proof as some on here would have us believe and the difficulties of dealing with foreign manufacturers.......................

Don't wish to join in the Germany vs England replay, Colin, but it does seem the problem so far lies primarily with the recalcitrant English dealer, and not with the German manufacturer.

 

So far as I can understand, no one has sought assistance from Dethleffs yet - except possibly to supply a wrongly specified tap. The problems sound far more serious than replacing a tap, and the selling dealer should be giving Dethleffs full on earache over their quality lapses, rather than playing pass the parcel with their client!

 

I don't want to get into that old debate either Brian. There are good and poor manufacturers both side of the channel and even the best will occasionally turn out a Friday van. My only point is that some, but not all UK manufacturers, will be better able and more willing to help directly. I'm sure they are not the only ones but our, and others, experience of AutoTrails customer service have been excellent as has the service of our local dealer Johns Cross in Kent even though we did not buy the van from them as they were not selling AutoTrail at the time.

 

What I object to is those few on here who keep knocking British motorhomes and claiming that continental ones are so much better.

[Colin Leake]

We've obviously been lucky with the only two new motorhomes we have bought, a Rapido and an AutoTrail. You may well have put us off for life from ever buying another none.

 

Do please keep us all informed we would love to hear that your problems have been eventually resolved and you are able to enjoy you motorhome holidays without hassel in future.

[yeti]

'Been there,done it and got the Tee shirt!' A lot of problems down to rubbish foundations and a waffle from FIAT coupled with a dozy dealer and a builder who like playing ping pong and this all on a British van,

If you had paid the same amount for a car it would have been replaced PDQ. Some of these Motorhome dealers play us for mugs and some of us are responsible. Dealers are not' awfully nice' they are in business to make money by fair means or foul. It is now time for us the customer to stop being Mr Nice Guy,they take our hard earned money and fob us off withh any rubbish. If they did a thorough PDI,including the domestic side,and reported fault to the buildersd,it would go a long way towards quality and customer satisfaction.

[Colin Leake]

The smart dealers are the ones who do a good PDI, a proper hand over and look after their customers afterwards. We bought our AutoTrail from the dealer nearest to us at the time but for various reasons would never go back to them. Basically they were a car dealer selling motorhomes and although they did at least try they simply didn't have a clue what they were doing. Since then Johns Wood in Kent who I have a lot of time for have taken good care of us including carrying out some warranty work even though we did not buy the motorhome from them (I would have but at the time they were not selling AutoTrails).

 

No prizes for guessing where we will buy our next unit from provided they are agents for what ever suits our requirements at the time.

[duetto owner]

i always thought made in germany a sign of good quality, no nothing about this make i presume it is made in the old east german part of germany. A make to avoid by the sound of it, the dealer too.

[Brian Kirby]

GEORDIEBETTS - 2012-08-24 6:02 PM

 

Well it's all happening. Fiat have phoned. Apparently a pipe put through the body work by the coach builders into the front section of the cab, was not insulated nor was it capped( WHATEVER THAT MEANS) There the wiring has rubbed /burnt away leaving it arching making the sensors come on. This is now Dethleff's problem. On discovering this they want the recovery and the work they have done paying?

 

Lowdhams have asked that the fiat dealers do a temporary repair, and the vehicle is taken back to Nottingham. We have refused to drive it , and informed them that we do not want the vehicle back.

 

They will discuss it after the Bank holiday. Gee Thanks!!!

I don't fully understand this, but suggest you get right to the bottom of what they are talking about. Your van, if I understand correctly what you have, is a A class van, in which no bodywork is provided by Fiat. It is supplied as a chassis-cowl, meaning only the front bulkhead separating the engine bay from the rest (probably plus the inner front wings) is there. As it has the AlKo chassis, there will be no Fiat components to the rear of the cab floor.

 

So, there is little scope for anything to have been put through bodywork, because there is virtually no bodywork present to put it through. A pipe would usually carry water or some other liquid. It can chafe through, but would result in a leak, not arcing. For arcing to take place, the chafing would have to be affecting electrical cables. It may be that both were taken through the bulkhead, and the pipe has pressed the cable/s onto a sharp edge resulting in the cables shorting. However, holes made through through the bulkhead for pipes or cables should not only have the cut edges protected by grommets or similar, they should also be sealed against noise, fumes, and fire, meaning that a very specific type of grommet should have been used by Dethleffs.

 

So, if I'm understanding correctly, this is a quite serious safety lapse by Dethleffs. However, it may be that the defect originated with Fiat and not Dethleffs, and that the Fiat is now trying to duck their responsibility. The problem is that the van is your property, and it is not Lowdhams, Dethleffs, or Fiats, so although you are dissatisfied with it, they must still respect that it is not theirs to do with as they will. Equally, the last thing you want is a game of pass-the-parcel between Dethleffs and Fiat. If you can get a photo of what it is that has failed, and where it is, I suggest you do so.

 

I just don't like the sound of what is being described. It sounds likely to take some time to resolve properly, as the cut wiring must be replaced, and not merely taped over, which may involve quite extensive work. You need to know exactly what that work will be, and when it will be carried out. That is for Lowdham to advise you about before they start. If you agree with what they propose, they go ahead, but if you don't like the sound of it, refuse to allow them to do it in that way. Tell them what you want doing, and if they say Dethleffs won't agree to that approach under their warranty, Lowdhams will have to bear the cost themselves. If they don't like that, and they insist on doing it their way, insist that the van then becomes theirs, and you get all your money back.

 

If the Fiat dealer is correct, and the fault lies with Dethleffs, it is quite reasonable for them to demand payment for recovering the vehicle, and for their time in investigating and making whatever temporary repair has been effected. In the short term you will probably have to pay them, as it is your van, and seek reimbursement from Lowdham. Make sure they know about this, and get their agreement to reimburse you the full cost plus reasonable expenses. Keep all receipts, and try to get the Fiat dealer to outline what he has done to remedy the fault, and why it was necessary, on the invoice. I assume the van is now going back to Lowdham on a transporter?

 

For what it is worth, you have my sympathy over this whole chapter of disasters. I'm sure it will come out well in the end, but direct engagement of Dethleffs now seems essential, as the scope of repair seems to have moved from the trivial and easy, to another plane. Lets hope not, and that all can be remedied easily and quickly.

[GEORDIEBETTS]

Thanks Brian

We have been given photographs of the damage , To be honest I'm not really understanding it Myself. It appears that Dethleffs removed covers to install the pipe which I believe is part of the Heating system, not being technically minded I havent a clue. The protective coverings were not replaced, The wiring in parts has now chaffed and you can see the copper wires now, As this is a metal /aluminium pipe this has then come into contact with the wiring. r tStill none the wiser, It is apparently down to Dethleffs., there was also another issue, but again I have no idea what he was talking about. The trouble is so much has happened the last few days , I have forced myself to switch off.

 

If the PDI check was done properly would that not of been noticed ? I assume it was sent to fiat in Nottingham for pre delivery checks, but who knows. The fact that their was a leak on the engine cooling system and the washer bottle was not to the required level also the over inflation of the tyres, make me wonder.

 

When these things were pointed out to us, my wife did ring Lowdhams and point this out to them she suggested the job had not been done properly. Our comments were duly noted and she was told they would pass on the information to who ever was supposed to of checked these things. The fact that Premier noted these issues and new we were going to pass this onto Lowdhams is another fact, They were not impressed by the supposed checks having been done properly.

 

I received an Email from the Dethleffs owners club and have brought him up to date with the events.

I hope they can help us out now.

 

Thanks Again Brian, How I wish I had your Technical Brain.

 

 

 

 

[Robinhood]

The Dethleffs model you have is (AFAIK) specified with Alde heating with the engine heat exchanger.

 

This allows the heating of the habitation area utilising heat produced by the engine - it being teed into the normal engine/radiator cooling circuit, and "exchanging" the heat with the Alde heating circuit.

 

It appears to me that the installation of this may be the cause of at least a couple of your problems.

 

In order to function (regardless of whether the heat exchanger is mounted in the engine or habitation compartment) non-Fiat piping needs to pass between the engine compartment and the interior (either the engine/radiator circuit or the Alde heating circuit.

 

It would appear that in your case, this has not been achieved in a satisfactory manner.

 

The addition of the heat exchanger is also a good suspect for the problems with the coolant level. Adding the heat exchanger into the radiator/engine circuit requires an element of draining, and increases the volume of coolant required above the (Fiat) factory levels. (i.e. more needs to go back in than was drained out) It is not unknown for the installation to create an air-lock which then causes the coolant, on refilling, to appear to be up-to-level, when it isn't.

 

Subsequent running of the engine, and on-road movement, tends to overcome the effects of the air-lock over time, and the coolant level in any reservoir effectively drops. This can continue for some time, but once the circuit is full (though it may need an element of "bleeding" at the highest level) it should be OK.

 

(My Rapido with installed auxiliary heating did this, but settled down after a couple of top-ups).

[GEORDIEBETTS]

Thanks that was so much easier to understand.

 

However there was a definite leak on the engine cooling System. It had sprayed fluid all round the engine and hood and was easily identified by fiat..

 

Funny thing though we had a call from a lady who had exactly the same problem with loosing all power. This apparently happened last year and their van was nearly a year old. The gear box was changed plus various other parts . The cause was not found, With the help of the Dealership Camper Uk, The van was returned to Dethleffs. A loan vehicle was given, all additional extras were transferred to the loan vehicle. 6 months later they were given a nice brand new vehicle. The offending van was eventually repaired , and returned to the Dealership and then sold on with no further issues. The fault actually turned out to be electrical, Makes you wonder does it not?

 

 

[GEORDIEBETTS]

Thanks that was so much easier to understand.

 

However there was a definite leak on the engine cooling System. It had sprayed fluid all round the engine and hood and was easily identified by fiat..

 

Funny thing though we had a call from a lady who had exactly the same problem with loosing all power. This apparently happened last year and their van was nearly a year old. The gear box was changed plus various other parts . The cause was not found, With the help of the Dealership Camper Uk, The van was returned to Dethleffs. A loan vehicle was given, all additional extras were transferred to the loan vehicle. 6 months later they were given a nice brand new vehicle. The offending van was eventually repaired , and returned to the Dealership and then sold on with no further issues. The fault actually turned out to be electrical, Makes you wonder does it not?

 

 

[patr]

Geordie

 

Sue's van was a Burstner and the service she received from Camper UK ably demonstrated why they are held in such high regard.

 

Her problems, and the way in which they were resolved, were the perfect example of customer care and total acceptance of responsibility.

 

I have an LMC and have used them for the past two years for servicing. I have been impressed by their professionalism and courtesy which is in marked contrast to the dreadful service I received from Hymer UK on my previous MH.

 

Camper UK are, in my opinion, the best dealers in the UK and I would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone who values honest, and caring, service.

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2012-08-25 8:36 PM

 

The Dethleffs model you have is (AFAIK) specified with Alde heating with the engine heat exchanger.

 

This allows the heating of the habitation area utilising heat produced by the engine - it being teed into the normal engine/radiator cooling circuit, and "exchanging" the heat with the Alde heating circuit.

 

It appears to me that the installation of this may be the cause of at least a couple of your problems.

 

In order to function (regardless of whether the heat exchanger is mounted in the engine or habitation compartment) non-Fiat piping needs to pass between the engine compartment and the interior (either the engine/radiator circuit or the Alde heating circuit.

 

It would appear that in your case, this has not been achieved in a satisfactory manner.

 

The addition of the heat exchanger is also a good suspect for the problems with the coolant level. Adding the heat exchanger into the radiator/engine circuit requires an element of draining, and increases the volume of coolant required above the (Fiat) factory levels. (i.e. more needs to go back in than was drained out) It is not unknown for the installation to create an air-lock which then causes the coolant, on refilling, to appear to be up-to-level, when it isn't.

 

Subsequent running of the engine, and on-road movement, tends to overcome the effects of the air-lock over time, and the coolant level in any reservoir effectively drops. This can continue for some time, but once the circuit is full (though it may need an element of "bleeding" at the highest level) it should be OK.

 

(My Rapido with installed auxiliary heating did this, but settled down after a couple of top-ups).

Sounds good to me! That flaping Alde pipe may well also be the source of the knocking, which makes me wonder if it was ever properly supported on installation. It sounds a bit like a classic "Friday" job, where the Friday boy forgot how far he'd got by Monday morning. If so, without wishing to add further to the misery, one wonders what else he forgot.

 

However, it is the trashed wiring that concerns me most. In view of the impact this had on the vehicle's running, it seems unlikely in the extreme that it can have been Dethleffs' conversion loom that has been damaged. If so, the ramifications may be quite extensive. Until what has actually been damaged is fully explained, and a suitable method of repair - that will at the very least fully maintain Fiat's warranty - agreed, I think I'd be insisting that whole of the affected section of the engine bay loom must be replaced. That'll be a fun job for someone.

 

I think it needs a Dethleffs rep to inspect this vehicle, either in UK or back at the factory. The above tale of a duff Burstner and its eventual rectification should be the yardstick for what Lowdhams now have to do. I'm ALMOST begining to feel sorry for them! :-) What a frustrating shambles! :-(

[Brian Kirby]

GEORDIEBETTS - 2012-08-25 7:25 PM.................If the PDI check was done properly would that not of been noticed ? I assume it was sent to fiat in Nottingham for pre delivery checks, but who knows. The fact that their was a leak on the engine cooling system and the washer bottle was not to the required level also the over inflation of the tyres, make me wonder...............................

The checks will, I think, have been completed in stages. The two German vans I have owned have both been PDI'd by Ford/Fiat dealers in Germany. Yours will have been a bit more complicated, as all that will have initially been delivered by Fiat, will be a couple of cab chassis-cowls (possibly seatless) bolted back to back.

 

AlKo now provide a service where they add their chassis to the delivered cab/cowl on behalf of the motorhome manufacturer. I don't know whether Dethleffs use this service, but would guess they do, and I don't know whether it is carried out at an AlKo plant with completed chassis then delivered to Dethleffs, or whether AlKo may have an assembly shop at Dethleffs' premises, or whether the AlKo technicians work on "the line" alongside Dethleffs bods. However, once the chassis is intact, assembly is usually for the motorhome floor to be installed, followed by the furniture, followed by equipment (fridge, heater etc), followed by walls, and depending on design, roof and front and rear mouldings. Somewhere in that process, supposedly following quality assurance procedures, your heating and its associated pipework will have gone in, and the engine cooling system been topped up. Several things seem to have gone wrong with the installation, which is why I'm inclined to suspect a break, such as a weekend, interrupted completion. Once the vehicle is completed and can be driven, it should go for Fiat's PDI sign off. You should see a company name in the front of the service log as having carried out the PDI.

 

Lowdham will then reasonably assume mechanical adequacy on the basis of Fiat's PDI, so will concentrate (or not!) on the conversion elements. They should remove protective coverings, clean, connect gas, fill water, connect electricity, and check all installed equipment functions. When they hand over, they should walk and talk you through everything, and all the associated paperwork. This, if done properly, takes around half a day. However, I doubt they would be looking under the bonnet for any more than the usual "pre-flight" checks on coolant, power steering, brake fluid, and engine oil, levels.

 

Somewhere, because I believe they claim ISO9001 QA certification, there will be a "tick sheet" indicating what they did. Possibly it was rather optimistically completed. If they show you a copy you'll know whether your experience matched the ticks!

[GEORDIEBETTS]

 

As of today , 2 phone calls from Lowdhams, one taken by my wife and one by myself.

 

The van is being collected tomorrow, and we shall have a visit from Ian to our home to discuss the issues.

 

There was no apology to either of us. We shall see what happens tomorrow.

 

[rolandrat]

I wonder if the dealer that sold the motorhome is monitoring this site.

[rolandrat]

I wonder if the dealer that sold the motorhome is monitoring this site.

[Brian Kirby]

I assume so, because he was advised of the fact his customers had published their reactions on several forums, and copied in the MMM editor.

[GEORDIEBETTS]

 

Our meeting today with Ian Brown After Sales Manager from Lowdhams.

 

We fully explained our problems and issues, we then gave him a letter by hand for the rejection of the vehicle.

 

We also emphasised the need to review the system for vehicles with issues under warranty.Especially new vehicles. A 6 week wait, was agreed, as not acceptable.

 

It became clear that Lowdhams have been reading the forum posts. He apologised several times for the situation we found ourselves in.

 

We have made him aware that a case number has been issued from Trading Standards, who now have all the facts.

 

Mr Brown has gone back to Lowdhams to talk with the Directors and Dethleffs.

 

We have outlined what we need to achieve to have a satisfactory conclusion.

 

It is now up to Mr Brown to come back to us with the correct outcome,

 

We thank you all for your interest and invaluable advice and hope that when we next post on here , it will be Good News.

 

Watch this space.

[Brian Kirby]

Then let's hope they now begin to do what their reputation suggests they would normally do. They have previously won awards for their customer care, so it is reasonable to be optimistic now they are fully attentive.

[longtemps]

The various comments posted highlight the need for careful consideration when selecting which motorhome dealer to buy from. Brownhills seem to be re-trenching to their Newark base. We can I suppose draw our own conclusions.

 

 

 

 

 

[docted]

Alan

Dont forget to include consequential losses, as described in Sale Of Goods Act , you and the missus may have incurred due to these problems. These may turn out to be fairly substantial in the circumstances.

Docted

[GEORDIEBETTS]

Hi All

 

Sorry we have been offline but we have been busy organising our house move which unfortunately had been in motion prior to our problems with the Motorhome.

 

I can confirm that talks with Lowdhams has been very productive due to the involvement of Ian Brown. He has been sensitive to our position and has worked with us to get the situation resolved as soon as possible . For that we commend him .

 

We have been working towards getting the result that is in the best of interests to ourselves, and are just about there.

 

We are being lent a vehicle, which will enable us to continue with the Holidays we have all ready booked.

 

So looks like we are going to make the Lincoln Show after all. We look forward to meeting up with the Motorhome group we are booked in with.

 

Alan (Geordie)

 

[Losos]

Mickydripin - 2012-08-25 3:06 PMGEORDIEBPosted: 24 August 2012 I went through three years of hell with solicitors and dealer problems. I think they are all the same I have yet to find a good one though there must be one out there (I think).

 

If you ever do find one let me know!!! This story is so typical of UK dealers, I have had similar with Wyvern Leisure and Van Bitz the appaling service, technical knowledge, and plain 'couldn't care less' is incredible. After spending over £100K you are certainly entitled to better service but I don't personally think you will get it anywhere in UK. I have my van serviced in Germany now.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Losos - 2012-09-05 9:07 PM

Mickydripin - 2012-08-25 3:06 PMGEORDIEBPosted: 24 August 2012 I went through three years of hell with solicitors and dealer problems. I think they are all the same I have yet to find a good one though there must be one out there (I think).

 

If you ever do find one let me know!!! This story is so typical of UK dealers, I have had similar with Wyvern Leisure and Van Bitz the appaling service, technical knowledge, and plain 'couldn't care less' is incredible. After spending over £100K you are certainly entitled to better service but I don't personally think you will get it anywhere in UK. I have my van serviced in Germany now.

Mike's (Mickydripin) 3-year nightmare involved a dispute over the chassis specification of the motorhome he had purchased. Compounding the problem was the fact that he had bought the vehicle from a dealership with an 'unusual' ownership/management structure and an unfortunate reputation for lack of customer-care. When it became apparent from Mike's postings which dealership was involved, informed forum members commented accordingly (the thread was subsequently deleted by the Moderator). The significant point though is that Mike's experience was unique, with everything going wrong that could.For you to say "...This story is so typical of UK dealers..." implies that you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the UK motorhome trade and personal experience of the majority of dealerships. This may indeed be the case, but I doubt it. It's just as likely that you've been seriously unlucky.I began motorcaravanning in 1998 with a Herald purchased from Moran Motorhomes at Ludlow and my annual motorhome servicing has been carried out by that dealership since. I've not read anything negative about Moran Motorhomes - there have been positive comments on this forum, and an article in MMM September 2012 (pages 147-149) expresses a high degree of satisfaction with that firm. So that's at least one 'good' UK dealership.