New Panel Van to Convert

[Edenside]

I am thinking of buying a brand new panel van to convert myself. The reason for this is I find that all the panel vans converted by existing converters have low pay loads. I intend to convert it myself using light weight materials. The quiery I have is if I fit side and rear windows to the van will there be any extra tax/vat to pay. I recall that years ago there was a fee for retro fitting windows. *-)

[snowie]

Hi Edenside and welcome to these forums;

 

Can't help on the vat question, but would just suggest that there are good deals around on nearly new vans.

 

If you convert the van yourself it will inevitably affect the resale value, and losing the first year's devaluation would be a double hit; unless you keep it for some time (which you may well do).

 

regards

alan b

[colin]

My previous van was a DIY, so I'm not anti that, BUT, to take some thing like the layout of my Globecar and try to make it lighter would be very difficult, it is already built using very light weight materials. You could build a lighter van but it would have to have less contents.

p.s. Whilst van prices are quoted as VAT free you will have to pay vat on them even if you don't convert it.

[colin]

The other tax you may bethinking of was 10% 'car tax', had to pay this on a vehicle 32 years ago but IIRC was abolised some time during 80s

[Mel B]

Hi Edenside

 

Just out of interest, what 'amount' of payload are you hoping to have in your conversion? :-S

[Edenside]

Hi At present we have a 1999 LWB Transit panel van. Converted ourselves. Fully fitted with sink, hob, oven, fridge, toilet & shower, Tv & satallite dish, bike rack to carry two electric bikes, awning outside table & chairs etc etc. Fully loaded we still have plenty of payload left. No where to put anything else but payload available. When asking already converted vans the salesmen have just poohood the payload but when pressed the figures that they give us are not good. By the time we carry all we have now we would be overloaded. We know that the cost will not be much cheaper doing it ourselves and the resale value would not be good but the van is for us not to sell. The only reason we are changing is that we now prefer a permanent bed instead of having to put it away every day.

[Edenside]

Thanks Colin I think that I must have been thinking about the car tax issue as I know we had to pay sometime a long time ago when we put windows in a vehicle. Our present van already had windows in when we converted it, we just changed them to the motorhome type window. The new van when it comes will not have any side windows in and didnt want to do anything incorrect.

[snowie]

Hi again;

 

I designed our van and had it professionally converted, and if I did it again I would do a lot of weighing of stuff before I finalized my design, and checking in use weights of components, and I'd have a pretty good idea of what would be left to build the interior.

 

I'm not sure I'd have had any idea what payload I wanted before I had a couple of years experience.

 

You have that experience, any probably know what else you want to take.

 

As I've commented in another thread, I'm not too worried about total payload etc, more a question of optimising storage by choice of layout. A fixed bed can help, and a longitudinal bed can be achieved, just depends what your priorities are.

 

I'm about to take our van to a public weighbridge before we go off to Croatia, and we've decided that it'll be worth it to have it weighed "empty" and "full: i.e. just as we set off"

 

Good luck with the project, I'm quite envious; love to do one more van; maybe I'll settle for steady improvement and refinement!

regards

alan b

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Edenside - 2012-09-03 3:20 PM

 

Hi At present we have a 1999 LWB Transit panel van. Converted ourselves. Fully fitted with sink, hob, oven, fridge, toilet & shower, Tv & satallite dish, bike rack to carry two electric bikes, awning outside table & chairs etc etc. Fully loaded we still have plenty of payload left. No where to put anything else but payload available. When asking already converted vans the salesmen have just poohood the payload but when pressed the figures that they give us are not good. By the time we carry all we have now we would be overloaded. We know that the cost will not be much cheaper doing it ourselves and the resale value would not be good but the van is for us not to sell. The only reason we are changing is that we now prefer a permanent bed instead of having to put it away every day.

You haven't said what vans you have been looking at, but if looking at transverse beds I'd guess SEVEL based, as only that and the the Master have anything like sufficient body width. I therefore wonder if you may be being a bit misled by those sales folk!

 

Most of the commercial, SEVEL based, PVCs can be optionally specified on the heavy, or "maxi", chassis, that ups MAM from 3,300kg (I think) to 3,500kg - with an appreciable, and very worthwhile, increase in front axle load (the front axle being the more prone to overload in most SEVEL conversions).

 

The extra cost of the heavy chassis seems a bit steep, but you do get a number of mechanical upgrades, including 16", in lieu of 15", wheels. I wonder if the sales bods just keep this little gem back, as most PVCs offered for sale seem to be 3,300kg based, presumably because they are cheaper, and salesmen seem to prefer to sell what they have in stock.

 

Whatever, it might be worth asking.

[colin]

Brian Kirby - 2012-09-03 7:41 PM

 

Edenside - 2012-09-03 3:20 PM

 

Hi At present we have a 1999 LWB Transit panel van. Converted ourselves. Fully fitted with sink, hob, oven, fridge, toilet & shower, Tv & satallite dish, bike rack to carry two electric bikes, awning outside table & chairs etc etc. Fully loaded we still have plenty of payload left. No where to put anything else but payload available. When asking already converted vans the salesmen have just poohood the payload but when pressed the figures that they give us are not good. By the time we carry all we have now we would be overloaded. We know that the cost will not be much cheaper doing it ourselves and the resale value would not be good but the van is for us not to sell. The only reason we are changing is that we now prefer a permanent bed instead of having to put it away every day.

You haven't said what vans you have been looking at, but if looking at transverse beds I'd guess SEVEL based, as only that and the the Master have anything like sufficient body width. I therefore wonder if you may be being a bit misled by those sales folk!

 

Most of the commercial, SEVEL based, PVCs can be optionally specified on the heavy, or "maxi", chassis, that ups MAM from 3,300kg (I think) to 3,500kg - with an appreciable, and very worthwhile, increase in front axle load (the front axle being the more prone to overload in most SEVEL conversions).

 

The extra cost of the heavy chassis seems a bit steep, but you do get a number of mechanical upgrades, including 16", in lieu of 15", wheels. I wonder if the sales bods just keep this little gem back, as most PVCs offered for sale seem to be 3,300kg based, presumably because they are cheaper, and salesmen seem to prefer to sell what they have in stock.

 

Whatever, it might be worth asking.

 

Whilst some models such as Adria Twin offer choise of 3.3t and 3.5t maxi, others offer 3.5t light chassis, if you don't need the maxi chassis then IMO this is the best one.

[Guest Peter James]

I went for a new van too - all the used ones I saw seemed to have been very used. You just don't seem to get whitevanmen doing 4,000 careful miles a year like motorhomers or car drivers ;)

I would rather economise elsewhere - like the windows, do you need them?

Extra weight, make the van hotter in summer, you lose all that wall space (useful for storage or a proper backrest for the seating), people can see in - and break in through them as they are always the weakest point - and in another thread someone has had their holiday ruined because a window leaked - on a brand new professional built van.

I have the Sevel Maxi Van without windows and don't find it claustrophobic at all. After all the interior is only about the size of a room in a house that would only have one window, but it has already got three - the windscreen and door windows. Just keep the interior colours as white as practical to make the most of the light and get some cheap LED strips from hong kong (ebay) I am only burning 6 watts of power and its light enough to read.

Having no side windows I have got a full size proper fixed bed in widthways - suspended on ratchet straps so you can make it perfectly level in a jiffy. Plus full size bikes hung inside the back doors.

And if you have got a plain white van nobody can see in you have less bother with parking because you can park wherever whitevanman parks - i.e wherever the van happens to come to rest ;-)

[colin]

Yes but then you need a sign, "No tools stored in van" to avoid getting a brick throu the cab windows. ;-)

[Guest Peter James]

colin - 2012-09-03 8:17 PM

Whilst some models such as Adria Twin offer choise of 3.3t and 3.5t maxi, others offer 3.5t light chassis, if you don't need the maxi chassis then IMO this is the best one.

 

I wanted the L4 wheelbase 6.3m long which gives an extra 2 cubic metres interior space over the L3 wheelbase 6.0m long which most professional convertors use. The L4 is only available in the Heavy version. As Brian says, you do get bigger wheels, to accommodate bigger brakes, which gives uprated axle loads. Most of the overloads with the vans seem to be on the front axle because there is little overhang behind the rear axle - especially on the L3 (The extra 300m length of the L4 is all behind the back axle) With the heavy version the front axle is uprated to 2100kg, and the rear to 2400kg, making an axle overload practically impossible at 3.500kg gross weight.

[colin]

Peter James - 2012-09-03 9:14 PM

 

colin - 2012-09-03 8:17 PM

Whilst some models such as Adria Twin offer choise of 3.3t and 3.5t maxi, others offer 3.5t light chassis, if you don't need the maxi chassis then IMO this is the best one.

 

I wanted the L4 wheelbase 6.3m long which gives an extra 2 cubic metres interior space over the L3 wheelbase 6.0m long which most professional convertors use. The L4 is only available in the Heavy version. As Brian says, you do get bigger wheels, to accommodate bigger brakes, which gives uprated axle loads. Most of the overloads with the vans seem to be on the front axle because there is little overhang behind the rear axle - especially on the L3 (The extra 300m length of the L4 is all behind the back axle) With the heavy version the front axle is uprated to 2100kg, and the rear to 2400kg, making an axle overload practically impossible at 3.500kg gross weight.

 

How many times do I have to post this *-)

The overloading of front axle is mostly due to manufacturers using L3 3.3t chassis, the L3 3.5t light has enough front axle capacity for pretty much any MH, this has been 'explored' by continetal mag, (a copy of which eddie sent to me) unfortunatly MMM and other uk mags seem to, in the main, bury their head in the sand on axle weights.

BTW I have a L4 maxi.

[Edenside]

Thanks for all the posts.

 

The van we are looking at is the Citroen Relay 35 Heavy L4 2.2HDi H2 130ps we think this will give us exactly what we want. Have priced it and there are some good deals about at present for new vans.

 

This is our 4th homebuild so looking forward to the work lots of new kit since our last build eg led lights etc. We have also previously owned a professionaly converted Coachbuilt and also a Demountable but have had the most fun in our own built vans.

 

(lol) (lol)

[Brian Kirby]

Have you investigated the spread of Citroen commercial dealerships for any possible warranty work on the van?

 

My impression is that they are the least well represented of all the SEVEL partners in UK, and also, France apart, pretty much across the rest of Europe.

 

Fiat seem to be far better represented almost everywhere, with Peugeot probably second in UK and France, but sparse elsewhere.

 

Maybe Peugeot dealerships are authorised to do warranty work on Citroen badged vans, and vice versa, as both are PSA, which would ease the situation, but this would seem worth checking.

[Guest Peter James]

Edenside - 2012-09-03 10:16 PM

The van we are looking at is the Citroen Relay 35 Heavy L4 2.2HDi H2

 

Thats the one I have got, and am delighted with it.

Not quite the same engine though, mine is 2008 model so 120 hp - but still plenty of power, and 34mpg average over the 20,000 miles I have done in it

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2012-09-04 12:11 AM

 

Maybe Peugeot dealerships are authorised to do warranty work on Citroen badged vans, and vice versa, as both are PSA, which would ease the situation, but this would seem worth checking.

 

I have never had a problem with my Citroen van, except the warranty recall for the spare wheel carrier.

Peugeot dealer said he couldn't do it, it would have to go to Citroen.

I took it to Advantage Citroen Lincoln (owned by the Co-Op) who fitted the wrong carrier (15" wheels instead of 16") so I had to take it back to them again to have the correct one fitted.

[Guest Peter James]

(duplicate post)

[Edenside]

Luckily we have a Citroen commercial dealership within 16 miles from home. Husband also a mechanic so after all necessary service period to keep the warrenty it will then be serviced by himself. Always have RAC breakdown recovery in UK & Europe so they will get us home or to the nearest garage but hopefully that will never be necessary.

 

It was nice to see good comments regarding Citroen vans, any more would be welcolm.

 

Thanks to all.

[colin]

I wanted the Citreon base as nearest dealer is only 8 miles from us, but due to cercumstances ended up with a Fiat which means a much longer trek to the dealers. Also IMO the 2.2 engine in the Citreon is much smoother than the 2.3 Fiat engine.

[Guest Peter James]

colin - 2012-09-04 8:51 AM

Also IMO the 2.2 engine in the Citreon is much smoother than the 2.3 Fiat engine.

 

Never tried the 2.3 Fiat, but the 2.2 Citroen is very smooth and quiet. I am sitting in it with the engine running to charge the leisure batteries (doesn't take long with the standard 160 amp alternator) and could forget the engine is running because there is no vibration, nothing rattling at all.

[Guest Peter James]

another thread running on the same subject

[Guest JudgeMental]

If you're not VAT registered business user, you have to pay VAT in addition to advertised price.

 

As Colin said plenty of German vans that are well constructed and offer decent payloads, and are still worth money years down the line..... mine has over 400kg and its only on a 3300kg chassis.

[Dave225]

I am not an expert on the matter but I am of the opinion that when you convert a van there is a 'line' at which point the van ceases to be a commercial vehicle and becomes a private vehicle and so incurs tax. It will need to be re classified on the vehicle document and obviously insured at the new classification. Of course any conversion work should be inspected and approved just for your own safety if nothing else. Fitting seats is one area that comes to mind as these need to be crash tested and have seatbelts if forward facing.

 

Again, as per another thread I feel that getting advice from one of the professional conversion companies will be very beneficial before you wind up the Black and Dekker.