Derek Uzzell Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Perhaps also worth highlighting that the concession allowing a Class 2 vehicle modified for disabled use to attract the Class 1 tariff only applies to Class 2 vehicles. If a disabled-use motorhome falls into Class 3 or 4, the concession does not apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean.clarke Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Good info - thanks guys Mental note: Avoid toll roads otherwise I'll get stung!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb6981 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Curtisden - 2012-09-25 3:27 PM I think you will find that automatic hight sensors are now fitted on Tolls approaches and you get charged based upon your hight. I do wonder why some argue about paying for what they are? Buy a big white box pay for a big white box. I do not resent paying tolls but to me the classification system in France is unfair and arbitrary. If your 'big white box' is a 4.5 tonne, tag axle, 7.5 metre long, 3.2 metre high motorhome you will be class 4 which is the same as a 44 tonne truck which is ten time your weight, is three times your length and has twice as many axles which causes far more damage to the environment and wear and tear on the road surface (tramlines in motorway 'slow' lanes). I have just returned from Southern France, in a 3.2 metre high coachbuilt, via the A71, A10, A1 and the A26. Invariably, in my experience, manned toll booth operators will charge you classe 2 (except for the Millau Bridge for which some reason I always get hit for €29). Automatic tolls will always charge classe 4. From junction 3, A71 to junction 10, A10, just south of Paris, is a distance of 125 kms (77 miles); at the automatic toll booth the charge indicated was classe 4, €46.90. I pressed the 'appeller' button, when the operator answered I said "Bonjour, camping car classe deux", she said "OK" and the display changed to classe 2, €22.40, which I duly paid. As for the Millau Bridge I came off at junction 47 (A71) went through Millau and rejoined at junction 45. It took me half an hour, 20 minutes longer than staying on the autoroute, the D809 to Millau is mostly dual carriageway, there are two aires de service, the second one has panoramic views of the Millau Bridge and the town, the scenary, Gorges du Tarn, is spectacular, the town is traffic free and you save €29 (a decent bootle of champagne?). As far as the accuracy of the automatic toll booths is concerned that is open to question, they are machines and thus fallible. I travelled down the A7 from Valence (J19) to Bollene (J15) in July (2012); there were no manual operators and the scene was chaotic. After a twenty minute wait in one queue (a dutch VW campervan with a high top was holding up the proceedings no doubt confused because he was being charged classe 4) horns were blaring and reversing lights coming on, so I reversed and barged into the adjacent queue. I put my ticket in and it came up as classe 3. I called the operator got a recorded message on a loop for about two minutes, horns were blaring behind me, when she anwered, I shouted "class one" at the operator (tempers were fraying and I forgot to use French); the display dropped from classe 3, €13 to classe 1, €6. The vehicle I wasdriving was a Toyota MR2, which is about 4 feet high, so much for the accuracy of the height sensors. In total it cost me €74.60 (all classe 2) to travel from Agde to Calais, missing out about 4 junctions on the A10 and the Millau Bridge. Paris to Calais via A1 and A26 was €32.20. I only encountered one automatic booth, but that seems to be pot luck, sometimes there are no manual operators for the whole journey. If I had to pay classe 4 all the way it would have been nearly €200. Calais to the Cote d'Azur is about €400 each way at classe 4! It seems the default position for motorhomes on automatic booths is classe 4, if you do not call the operator and complain it's going to cost you (about €0.60 per mile!). Automatic booths are a pain and a retrograde step and in busy periods can cause chaos, delay and bad tempers. Hopefully, they will bring back more manually operated booths at peak times, but somehow I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 jb6981 - 2012-09-27 1:15 PM Curtisden - 2012-09-25 3:27 PM I think you will find that automatic hight sensors are now fitted on Tolls approaches and you get charged based upon your hight. I do wonder why some argue about paying for what they are? Buy a big white box pay for a big white box. I do not resent paying tolls but to me the classification system in France is unfair and arbitrary... I did point out on this thread two days ago that the French autoroute vehicle-classification rules were "abitrary", but they are reasonably logical so that larger, heavier vehicles should generally pay more than lighter smaller ones. Ignoring 2- and 3-wheelers, there are only four Classes fto cover autoroute traffic. That potential blurring of Class 'edges' should be no surprise where automated toll-collection systems are concerned. There's no doubt that the "big white box" motorhome you describe should be charged the Class 4 traiff. If toll-booth operators choose to ignore that, or are ignorant of the classification system and charge the Class 2 tariff wrongly, that's good luck for the motorhome's driver. But operator errors do not make the autoroute classification system "unfair". Arbitrary revenue-gathering systems exist everywhere. For any motorcaravan with an engine capacity over 1549cc and a maximum permitted overall weight no greater than 3500kg, the annual UK VED charge is currently £220. For a motorcaravan with a maximum permitted overall weight above 3500kg, the annual UK VED charge is currently £165. A sub-5-metres long 2240kg Romahome attracts £55 per annum more VED than a near 9-metres long 5000kg Auto-Trail Frontier Chieftain (and let's not forget RVs also pay £165). This doesn't seem exactly fair to me. It doesn't surprise me that some motorhomes may be identified by an automated toll-booth system as being in Class 3 or 4 when the Class 2 tariff should be appropriate. Nor does it surprise me that, even when a motorhome should rightly be charged the Class 3 or 4 tariff, if one calls a human operator and complains, the Class 2 tariff will be inappropriately allowed. But, as I emphasised earlier, there is no 'motorhomes are all Class 2' rule. If you can manage to drive a Class 4 motorhome on French autoroutes at Class 2 rates, then I wish you well. However, if it's clear from the French autoroutes website that your vehicle is Class 4, you should not really expect to use the autoroutes at a discounted rate just because your (large) motorhome is a good deal smaller than a big truck. Would you expect a 11-metres long, 10-tonne RV also to pay the Class 2 tariff? If not, why not - it would, after all, be a motorhome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal55 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 we have a overcab, as has been stated if you go to a auto booth we are class 3, manual booth class 2, just been charged 23.1e to go over the Millau, we refused to pay or go through but 15 mins of arguing, with lots of honking behind, did not get us anywhere, the woman who could help was at "lunch" ,so paid up.will not be going over again. last year it was 8e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Wow - some great info in the replies to this topic. I have driven uk to costa brava and back entirely on toll (till?) roads (2 yrs ago) and found it expensive, boring and also stressful. It cost me 260 euros and I found it almost impossible to estimate the charge in advance of each toll barrier. Now we saunter along the free excellent french/spanish(well some) roads and the driver gets to enjoy the journey. Avoid the toll roads I say. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 bigal55 - 2012-10-11 6:57 PM we have a overcab, as has been stated if you go to a auto booth we are class 3, manual booth class 2, just been charged 23.1e to go over the Millau, we refused to pay or go through but 15 mins of arguing, with lots of honking behind, did not get us anywhere, the woman who could help was at "lunch" ,so paid up.will not be going over again. last year it was 8e. This webpage gives the 2012 toll-charges for the Millau Viaduct and provides details of vehicle classifications: http://www.leviaducdemillau.com/version_html/tarifs.php The 2012 in-summer Class 2 charge is 12.80€ and the in-summer Class 3 charge is 23.50€ Class 3 vehicles are described as having 2 axles, an overall height of 3.0m or above, or a Maximum Authorised Mass above 3500kg. These adverts give the height of a 2007 Ace Milano as 3.05m: http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/forsale/used-motorhomes/somerset-county-caravans/ace-milano-[no-trim]/2_177_6 http://www.highbridgecaravans.co.uk/newmotorhomedetails.php?ID=206 As 23.50€ appears to be the correct charge for your motorhome to cross the Millau Viaduct, why should you have objected when you were asked to pay it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwyn Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Syd - 2012-09-26 12:36 PM Cannot read everything written on here, not enough time to spare, so just in case anyone has missed this important bit. Disabled badge holders can travel class one ONLY if their documents state that the vehicle is modified for a disabled person Not so, my husband has a disabled badge but van is not modified, its a bit hit and miss but usually we get regraded as Class 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 We don't use the Toll Roads, We don't pay the tolls, simples, but we have plenty of time to waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 gwyn - 2012-10-12 7:39 PM Syd - 2012-09-26 12:36 PM Cannot read everything written on here, not enough time to spare, so just in case anyone has missed this important bit. Disabled badge holders can travel class one ONLY if their documents state that the vehicle is modified for a disabled person Not so, my husband has a disabled badge but van is not modified, its a bit hit and miss but usually we get regraded as Class 1 This is a useful autoroutes-related leaflet: http://www.autoroutes.fr/FCKeditor/UserFiles/File/ASFA%20CLASSE%20VEHICULE%20BD.pdf The 'rules' for Class 2 vehicles that have been adapted for disabled people being able to attract Class 1 toll-charges are explained in more detail. There are specific rules for French-registered vehicles that define what needs to be on the vehicle's registration document to permit the Class 1 toll to be applied. For non-French-registered vehicles, the advice is merely to choose the 'manual' lane when approaching the toll-booth or, at automatic-only toll-stations, to seek help using the intercom facility. Autoroute tolls relate to vehicles not people. As Syd emphasised, the Class 2 to Class 1 toll-charge concession only applies to vehicles that have been modified for disabled use. In principle, if a Class 2 vehicle has not been modified for disabled use it does not qualify for the concession, even if everybody travelling in it has a disabled badge. It's easy to imagine, though, that such a rule may not be applied rigorously and (as you've found) that presentation of a disabled badge will usually result in a Class 1 toll-charge. It's apparent that many UK motorcaravanners are under the impression that all motorhomes pay the Class 2 autoroute toll-charge, despite it being obvious from the autoroute information documentation that this is not so. If disabled autoroute-users travelling in unmodified Class 2 vehicles can usually obtain the concession that's a plus. Nevertheless, the autoroute rules do demand that, to qualify for the Class 1 toll-charge, a Class 2 vehicle be modified for disabled use and It would be sensible for UK disabled travellers to be aware of that distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 For us the journey is the holiday and we too prefer to potter and enjoy - and France is often a perfect place to do just that. When we have simply been traversing France (which we tend to do when it's raining) we've always used the extensive network of N / E roads and I just wander exactly how much time is, in reality, saved by the paid alternatives. I'd guess you might save at best 2 - 4 hours on a full traverse - has anyone actually quantified it? A couple of hours over the course of a two week holiday really ought to be insignificant. If that time saving in this leisure time context is deemed significant, something bigger may be amiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Trip to Spain via westerly French route last year was the first time we have travelled non toll all the way Brian Kirby helped me with route as he is more knowledgeable. Programmed Garmin and it was fine, .by the time you come of a peage to shop, find reasonable priced fuel, and somewhere to sleep I doubt that there is that much in it...not as if we drive sports cars. one section south of Rouen was a pain with about 1000 roundabouts..... Spain cheap fuel on motorways and cheap tolls so an easy country to transverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Here are a couple of sites I found useful I do sometimes use the toll route when I find it more convenient than the other routes However i do prefer to stay away from the toll roads http://www.autoroutes.fr/en/vehicle-classification.htm http://www.autoroutes.fr/index.htm On this site you can down load a document that shows the current toll charges http://www.autoroutes.fr/en/key-rates.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansZinderfaan Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 We use the tolltickets 'Liberte' dongle like gadget which sits on the front windscreen just behind the rear view mirror and it hasn't let us down yet. By registering the vehicle with them there is no room for errors. You sail through the tolls some of them you don't even stop at provided you do not exceed 20 kph and you are invoiced to the end of the month when the bill is deducted via direct debit which means if you are away over the end of, and into the next month the tolls will be spread over two months. There is a small charge for the hire of the dongle. No more queuing at the Peage, on one trip it was some 10 km before some of the queuing cars caught us up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianBW Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 This year as we pulled up to the toll ticket machine, the ticket was made available, as my wife stretched out to collect it, a man grabbed it and raced to his juggernought alongside. The only thing we could do was to reverse and activate the machine again for a ticket. I wondered did he pay Class2 for his rig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 vindiboy - 2012-10-12 9:04 PM We don't use the Toll Roads, We don't pay the tolls, simples, but we have plenty of time to waste. Ditto. We potter around on "A" roads, or smaller ones, never on toll motorways. Time rich, cash poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 HansZinderfaan - 2012-10-19 8:32 PM We use the tolltickets 'Liberte' dongle like gadget which sits on the front windscreen just behind the rear view mirror and it hasn't let us down yet. By registering the vehicle with them there is no room for errors. You sail through the tolls some of them you don't even stop at provided you do not exceed 20 kph and you are invoiced to the end of the month when the bill is deducted via direct debit which means if you are away over the end of, and into the next month the tolls will be spread over two months. There is a small charge for the hire of the dongle. No more queuing at the Peage, on one trip it was some 10 km before some of the queuing cars caught us up. Sorry to resurect this thread but I am interested in the Liberte scheme as being a lone traveller and small I find I have to dismount at automatic booths as I cannot reach to put the card. This is invariably accompanied by loud "klaxon noises" which often continue after I have left the booth - very embarrassing! However, the entrance to Liberte passages always seem to have height barriers - how do you cope with these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Patricia The French "Liber-t" scheme and its usage is well described here: https://www.saneftolling.co.uk/what-is-liber-t Liber-t applies only to vehicle autoroute-classes 1, 2 and 5, so motorhomes over 3 metres in height or with a maximum overall weight greater than 3500kg are not eligible. I recall you saying that the TV dome on your motorhome's roof caused the vehicle to be considered as Class 3 (on an over-3m height basis) by autoroute height-sensing equipment, though it is technically in Class 2, but I'm not sure whether that would complicate matters as far as Liber-t is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Thank you for that link Derek and apologies for the delay replying. I have studied the link and spoken to a lady at the office. She seems to think that I should be able to use the tag BUT, as you say, the TV dome may complicate matters. If the sensors think that the dome is a part of the vehicle I would not be able to pass through as that would make me classe 3 and she said I would have to reverse out. She then had no idea how I could exit the motorway as I would not have a ticket, would I and many of the exits that I use are now automatic with no manned kiosk? It sounds a good idea for me as I would not have to keep getting out of the vehicle but I think I need to give it more thought. I will read the sanef site in French and see if that would help me. I would actually prefer to pay in euros as I have a French bank account. This scheme seems fine for the times that I travel in my car rather than the motorhome so I might go ahead and give it a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Hi Patricia.I am just about to send off for the Liberte for myself as I travel alone and do not like getting out of the cab in the middle of the night with a gale blowing, especially in January. You should not have a problem with the dome but do not worry about having to back out of the peage. Just put your hazard's on. The unmanned booths still have a intercom system to control area office as far as I am aware if the barrier does not work.If the worst happens just use your credit card instead. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 coach2000 - 2012-11-16 12:28 AM Hi Patricia.I am just about to send off for the Liberte for myself as I travel alone and do not like getting out of the cab in the middle of the night with a gale blowing, especially in January. You should not have a problem with the dome but do not worry about having to back out of the peage. Just put your hazard's on. The unmanned booths still have a intercom system to control area office as far as I am aware if the barrier does not work. If the worst happens just use your credit card instead. Clive To my rescue again Clive! Thank you. I had no trouble at all with Classe 2 until I had the TV dome put on the top. Since then I have to get out and use the intercom at all unmanned toll booths and inevitably there is a line of lorries behind within seconds all blasting their horns. Must say I have never tried putting the hazards on! I was sure she was mistaken about reversing (that really would really increase my popularity!) and would use the phone and credit card as you recommend. I have just been searching French version which is actually much cheaper. As far as can tell it is only 1.6€ a month when you use it and nothing to pay for the other months. It also seems that there is no deposit to pay (http://www.telepeagelibert.com/commandez-dans-un-espace-client.htm) and nothing to pay if you collect your "facture" on line, only if they post it to you. It is called "Bip and Go a la carte". I got part way through the ordering process but they insist on having a French (or German, Belgian, Swiss etc. but not UK!) mobile number. Not sure whether they would accept my Mobicarte so will have to put some money on it to try. However, you can conduct the buying process at many depot points including at the Boulogne toll. I am certainly interested, particularly now that it covers all over France, as like you I hate getting out at night particularly in the winter and especially with irate drivers behind me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Patricia,thanks for that link. I had a look at the french site and would have subscribed but it would seem that the UK is not on the list of approved subscribers as they hve a British site to enrol. It does look like it would be slightly cheaper to use for occasional use plus the benefit of no deposit. Looks as if the English site is the best for us as cost wise it is still reasonable especially when you take the Pound to Euro into account. I am trying to get mine as a Christmas present. If anyone else has one of these "tags* for private use I would be interested in their opinion, in my part time job as a coach driver I use one all the time on the continent and they are a big plus on the autoroutes but like anyhing else you do get hiccups and I have had to reverse out many a time. Sometimes it was my fault ie going thru the pay lane or the sensor was not working on that particular lane. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBill Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 BGD - 2012-11-01 1:04 AM vindiboy - 2012-10-12 9:04 PM We don't use the Toll Roads, We don't pay the tolls, simples, but we have plenty of time to waste. Ditto. We potter around on "A" roads, or smaller ones, never on toll motorways. Time rich, cash poor. Ditto again. We like taking our time, look at the scenery, stop at small villages to pick up local produce etc. If we need to get somewhere fast we may aswell be back in Blighty. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 On approaching certain areas on the continent in the day or night it is less stressful and easier to use the toll road to navigate a small distance for a small toll charge, a common one is Tours. In January I will be doing a stretch of autoroute up past Chambery up and round Lyon. It will be a very small part of the journey from Albertyville where I will start on the A roads and finish that stretch of driving at Millau. The next day will be on the A roads except for the part I go round Toulouse. I sit in enough traffic and Traffic lights in the UK without doing it on my holidays. And yes, I may even save a bit of Fuel staying in 5th gear to offset the small toll charges. Everyone to their own. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 It would be interesting to know how many forum members deliberately choose not to use toll-free French autoroutes (or French 'autoroute standard' trunk roads), preferring instead to sit in traffic-light queues in quaint French villages, or meander down narrow French country roads behind a tractor . Come on - the reason you don't use French toll autoroutes (and I'm no different) is the toll fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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