Mickydripin Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Hi All, Can anybody tell me what Limited use springs are? I am told that is what I have on my motorhome. My motorhome is a Fiat Ducato X250 and is 3,500Kg in weight laden. Are these springs fit for purpose for the weight that they are ment to carry. Are they a Fiat cash cow for making you fit heavy duty springs at £1200 a pop, when these fail or going the other way and fitting air suspenson because your motorhome springs are too weak and not stable on the road. Have you had problems with your rear springs Fiat say that they have not had any complaints or problems with these springs. Is this true? Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I had problems with the rear springs and hangers on my 2010 Fiat Ducato X250 - they made the most dreadful noise. Eventually got the rear spring hangers and bushes changed under warranty, which cured the problem. According to the thread I started on another forum, there were plenty of other X250 owners with the same issue. http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-123498-.html (images will not be visible to non subscribers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Whats the actual problem with your springs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 colin Posted: 28 September 2012 7:40 PM Subject: RE: Fiat rear springs Expert Posts: 4241 Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB Profile PM Whats the actual problem with your springs. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I would just like some answers to my questions before I say anything judging the replys Fiat are correct there are no problems or everyone is away on holiday otherwise dissapointed by the lack of response with so many experts being on this site. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-09-28 10:07 PM I would just like some answers to my questions before I say anything judging the replys Fiat are correct there are no problems or everyone is away on holiday otherwise dissapointed by the lack of response with so many experts being on this site. Mike. I have no more to add, I don't play twenty questions, but I do think I know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChrisB Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-09-28 1:04 PM Can anybody tell me what Limited use springs are?... ...Are they a Fiat cash cow for making you fit heavy duty springs at £1200 a pop,... Mike. Haven't a clue what limited use springs are or where this thread is going! Do know that I paid an extra £90 for the heavier duty 2-leaf rear springs on my van and very pleased with the higher ride and better ride. No idea where the £1200 figure comes from? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 I would have thought the questions were obvious I was wondering if there were people out there that had any of the problems that I listed. the term listed "Limited use springs" was quoted by Fiat and the price quoted £1200 was the price that my Fiat garage wanted to replace my rear springs with the heavy duty springs under the warrenty as my springs had sunk and causing stability problems, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Converters can spec the vehicles they order for conversion. Probably no great Fiat conspiracy; more like converter cutting costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Hi. Reading other threads on springs, it seems that the ones that can give problems are the single leaf types. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChrisB Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-09-28 11:54 PM I would have thought the questions were obvious I was wondering if there were people out there that had any of the problems that I listed. the term listed "Limited use springs" was quoted by Fiat and the price quoted £1200 was the price that my Fiat garage wanted to replace my rear springs with the heavy duty springs under the warrenty as my springs had sunk and causing stability problems, Sorry for my hasty and rather flippant reply. If the problem you have is that the suspension "sits" on the rubber assistors (they are not "bump stops") then this is normal for heavy rear loads within the axle limits. Some MoT inspections have reported this as a suspension problem - it isn't and is common to a number of panelvans. http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/MoT%20-%20Issue%2050%20-%20May%202011.pdf See page 13 in the above document. Chris PS If I was spending over £1000 on beefing up the rear suspension I would probably go for adjustable air assistors Edit This is an earlier thread on rear suspension - I probably downloaded the info from the link given a year or so ago. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23529&start=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 Hi all, After talking to Fiat customer services they have told me to take my van back to the Fiat garage for another inspection. The garage then rang me to say that when I took my van in for inspection the fitter that usualy does the work on motorhomes was on holiday and someone else did it, he will be back next thursday. Fiat customer services has told them to look at it again but I do not hold out any hope so I think Air rides are the way to go. What price am I looking at for air suspension.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Considering your history with payload I'm thinking you must be well p*ssed off. Have you ever weighed your MH loaded and more importantly the individual axles? I can't help but think that this model is a prime example to 'do a tracker' (see perils of payload thread) and overload the rear axle, I'm sure this is why Fiat agent is considering fitting heavy duty rear springs, of cause I might be talking complete BS, but thats my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Micky, the thread Chris referred to a couple of posts ago, was my unsettling experience from a while back. My conclusion then - and I don't know if things have changed - is that the Fiat dealership didn't know what it was talking about. They were used to often unloaded panel vans coming in for service and repair, so they'd been more used to axles which were some way off the rubber spring assisters. When they saw my panel van with axle and assisters right next to each other, they failed the MOT. I won't repeat all that's in that thread, but suffice to say that when they fitted the heavier-duty (but still single-leaf) springs, there was no difference in the way the van sat. I'd measure the gap between the top of the rear wheels and the panel body directly above. I measured once more with the new springs in place and there was little difference. Crucially, however, there was also still no gap between axle and spring assisters. Yet, I'd just paid £1,100 for the swap between original 'overly-light' springs and the replacement heavier-duty springs. At the time, I'd had no issues with the original springs and I've since perceived no difference in the heavier-duty replacements, which are still on the van, as the Fiat dealership left them there and refunded my money. So, frankly, I'd be very wary of people telling you that yours are light-duty, under-specified for a motorhome, or suchlike. I'd only be inclined to change what you already have, if you feel the ride or handling are being affected in a way which points to the rear suspension. The other issue which came up for me at the time, is that springs can sag, until they're effectively shot and need to be replaced. That was the angle that the Fiat dealership came up with, in conjunction with the fact they'd been underspecified by Adria from the start. It was that final statement which made me think something wasn't right. Adria make loads of these vans and if they were fitting incorrect springs which sagged all too early, or adversely affected ride and handling, then this would have been either corrected to avoid warranty claims, or there would many people trying to get Adria to own up to the fault and do something about it. However, I researched and found nothing to that effect. It was all down to a Fiat dealership MOT tester who simply did not understand the suspension setup of the X250. So, unless you're unhappy in some way with the springs you currently have fitted, I'd leave well alone. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Considering your history with payload I'm thinking you must be well p*ssed off. Have you ever weighed your MH loaded and more importantly the individual axles? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes Colin, I am an X lorry driver and am very cautious on weights every time I go away loaded especialy to the EU I go to the weighbridge and weigh both axle`s and total weight so the problem is not there. The vehicle has only done just over 3,000 miles and is eighteen months old. This motorhome Larky is very expensive and time consuming and I am wondering if it is worth it as it is rife with bad dealers, bad garages, bad accessory fitters, and people that want to pinch everything off it that is not locked up or nailed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 So, unless you're unhappy in some way with the springs you currently have fitted, I'd leave well alone. Shaun. Thanks Shaun I take your point and will see next thursday what happens at the Fiat agents I will let you know. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Our previous Rapido and present AutoTrail both have the heavy duty double spring set up. I'd rather assumed all motor homes had this. Out of interest what make is your motorhome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Mickydripin - 2012-09-29 4:32 PM ...What price am I looking at for air suspension.? The basic cost of a 'semi-air' system will depend on the make of system and its sophistication. This is an example of a simple (£354) system, without pressure gauge(s) or compressor http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/store/dunlop-suspension-fiat-ducato-x250-0606-p-1970.html while this (£649) system includes gauges and a compressor and, consequently, is a good deal dearer http://www.as-airsuspension.co.uk/air_prices.html http://www.as-airsuspension.co.uk/alko.html The quoted prices for the above-mentioned systems are for DIY kits and fitting charges can vary dramatically. Some companies marketing semi-air systems and exhibiting at outdoor leisure shows have offered free fitting. Otherwise at least £125 should be allowed for http://www.rhinoinstalls.co.uk/airride.htm Suggestions that single-leaf rear springs might somehow be 'wrong' for a motorhome are overly simplistic. A modern leaf-spring will have been designed for the vehicle to which it will be fitted, and a vehicle designed to carry a heavy load on its rear axle will need a leaf-spring suitable for coping with that load. This spring may have one leaf or more than one leaf. My 2005 Hobby has twin-leaf rear springs, but the equivalent current Hobby model has a single-leaf spring. There's no reason to think that the latter is less 'stiff' - in fact, as the rear suspension of current Ford-based Hobbys no longer includes the plastic 'spring assisters' fitted as standard to my motorhome, there's every likelihood that the single-leaf spring is stiffer than my motorhome's twin-leaf arrangement. If a motorhome shows signs of 'sagging' at the rear, this may be due to old age (springs do become senile), heavy loading of the rear axle as result of the motorhome's design or how the owner is operating the motorhome (eg. carrying a motorbike on a rear-carrier or towing), or a mechanical problem (eg. cracked springs). Soft rear springs, or a 'sagging backside' may result in worrying cross-winds sensitivity and unpleasant handling. The time-honoured remedy is to fit a semi-air system as a) it's normally cheaper than replacing the rear springs and b) it allows the 'stiffness' of the rear springing to be adjusted according to the rear-axle loading and how the motorhome behaves. Replacing 'soft' springs with 'harder' ones will allow no adjustability and, if the motorhome's ride after spring-replacement turns out to be harsh, realistically there's nothing much that can be done about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Our Maxi chassis PVC only has single springs on rear, this is plated at 2.4t. Whats your normal rear load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I was left with stiffer springs on the van which I hadn't wanted, but kept them on because I thought it best as they were new (and free!). However, despite the usual significant cost of replacement, which others would face if they took this route, there has been no discernible difference in ride or handling for the year and a half that I've had the stiffer springs in place. This suggests it would take more than a stiffer single-leaf arrangement to make a difference - at least on my particular van conversion. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Hello, This is a thorny issue. Our vans are all Maxi versions, and to cope with the higher plated rear axle weight they have 'heavier duty' springs than the lighter chassis will have. We still specify the heavy duty suspension (twin leaf) at build for the extra long body vans though and can report that they are a bit bouncy when there is no load in the van, but as soon as there are a couple of hundred kilos in there, they ride beautifully. We protect ourselves a bit from potential over-loading and the springs should last longer. As this option only costs £82 from the factory, it is a no brainer and I would recommend anyone that is able to order this as an option on any vehicle destined to be a camper should do so since the cost of replacing standard springs with these later on is very likely to be in the order of £1000 plus. When a vehicle is fully loaded, even with the HD springs you may well still see the 'bump stops' in contact with the springs but this is not necessarily a problem. Sean may not have noticed a discernable difference in handling or ride between the two types of springs but even if it was very marginal, it is worth it for £82 but possibly not for £1000 when there are more adjustable options available for a similar cost. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwaviation Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 As part of my upgrade to 3200kgs I fitted airide, sadly about a week later (right after an MOT) I noticed a spring had cracked at the top of the rear carrier. I replaced that one spring with what I was told was the only single sping replacement available (which cost me less than £150) and I was very suprised to see a massive difference in ride height from side to side, the new spring was about 4" higher and it felt a little weird having one bag at 4 bar and the other at 0.5... So I replaced the good spring as well. The whole episode cost about £300 - I sit a tail up and pressure the airides to the minimum pressure of 0.5 bar which doesn't contribute to the increase in ride height and my suspension is very, very comfortable... £1200! your garage is having a laugh :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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