Melvin Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Hi, My 2008 Autotrail Cheyenne 660SE clutch has failed @ 9400 miles, it had the gearbox reverse modification carried out in 2009 @2500 miles. I was under the impression that as part of the modifications an uprated clutch was fitted, apparently not, there was 2 kit A and B, only B included the uprated clutch. It would appear my motorhome was fitted with kit A i.e no clutch replacement, but Fiat and the Fiat dealer cannot confirm, although Fiat and the dealer confirm it failed due to 'fair wear and tear' and not down to a manafacturing fault, and yes I did ask for the clutch back at the time, but unfortunately it had been disposed of, how convenient. Anyway, total cost of clutch replacement £949.27, as regards warranty on the new uprated clutch, I asked the question if it fails in the next 1000 miles 'only if it has a manafacturing fault' it is not covered for 'fair wear and tear'. I am so happy with Fiat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Kit A was an engine mount change and if necessary a software upgrade. I only had B done on mine just had a look at the paperwork it included a clutch and damper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Do not expect any help from Fiat or its dealerships of course they have not got your old clutch they would not want you to see why it failed you will find with Fiat they will offer you an unberella in case it rains , but when it doe's they cannot find one Typical.You should know what to expect its in the name FIAT fix it again tomorro . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 lennyhb - 2012-10-02 2:09 PM Kit A was an engine mount change and if necessary a software upgrade. I only had B done on mine just had a look at the paperwork it included a clutch and damper. I have this direct from Fiat Customer Care Kit A gearbox modifications, clutch damper and hydralic pipe, Kit B the above plus uprated clutch. The engine mount were intially first step if that did not cure the problem the second stage was the gearbox mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Melvin - 2012-10-02 3:34 PM lennyhb - 2012-10-02 2:09 PM Kit A was an engine mount change and if necessary a software upgrade. I only had B done on mine just had a look at the paperwork it included a clutch and damper. I have this direct from Fiat Customer Care Kit A gearbox modifications, clutch damper and hydralic pipe, Kit B the above plus uprated clutch. The engine mount were intially first step if that did not cure the problem the second stage was the gearbox mods. If it's a 2.3 engine then it comes as no surprise that there is early clutch failure. A 2.3 engine is designed to power a panel van which runs around normally in less than a fully laden state. There are some 4 tonne plusmotorhomes out there with 2.3 engines and hauling around such a weight is bound to put excess pressure on the clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 I have noticed there appears to be no reported transmission problems regarding the later 2.2/2.3 and 3 litre vans ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Looks like Fiats CPM (clutch per miles) works out at £100 for every thousand miles 8-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Oh dear ! NOT what i wanted to hear after just signing 'on the dotted line' for a new Fiat Autotrail Savannah. please ALL say ' Don't worry it's not a problem with the 'newer' ones ' !! Mine is a 2.3 with a 150bhp ungrade, but does have a 4.2 tonne chassis, AND I do have to reverse up an incline to park it at home. I thought all these problems had been 'put to rights' with everyone happy ?? Still I have a 3 year warranty, I estimate it will be reversed up a hill many,many times before the 3 years are up. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-10-02 9:29 PM Oh dear ! NOT what i wanted to hear after just signing 'on the dotted line' for a new Fiat Autotrail Savannah. please ALL say ' Don't worry it's not a problem with the 'newer' ones ' !! Mine is a 2.3 with a 150bhp ungrade, but does have a 4.2 tonne chassis, AND I do have to reverse up an incline to park it at home. I thought all these problems had been 'put to rights' with everyone happy ?? Still I have a 3 year warranty, I estimate it will be reversed up a hill many,many times before the 3 years are up. Ray Is it too late to change to a 3 litre? The warranty does not extend to the clutch as that will be classified as wear and tear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Ray - just make sure that you have a test drive of it BEFORE you pay over the remainder of the cash, that way if there's a problem you can easily reject it ... much more difficult if you have paid in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Yes,too late for a 3 litre auto, it's a 2012 model at a 'good' price, to make way for the 2013 models (so I was told ?) anyway a good deal. Surely it's the power/torque produced by the engine rather than the engine size that 'counts', and for an engine producing 150bhp surely an 'Adequate' clutch/flywheel assy. will be fitted ?? If it DOES fail early under warranty (after all the hundreds of posts and threads on this forum about this subject) then a court case will ensue, in fact the dealer is now going to have to sign a letter to back up any early clutch failure is put right. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Can I ask Melvin what Fiat meant by clutch failure? There are various components and it seems unlikely they all went at the same time. As the cost to replace was nearly a grand, was the whole assembly replaced or just the offending part(s)? Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Shaun - 2012-10-03 7:40 AM Can I ask Melvin what Fiat meant by clutch failure? There are various components and it seems unlikely they all went at the same time. As the cost to replace was nearly a grand, was the whole assembly replaced or just the offending part(s)? Shaun Hi Shaun, 'clutch failure' in Fiats eyes is failure due to manafacturing fault, and yes eveything was replaced including the transmission fluid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Back in the days of Cortinas, Escorts, Avengers, Marinas, etc, general wear after modest mileages used to relate mainly to the clutch plate (and perhaps the release bearing), in the same way as for brake linings. For those of us who used replace our own clutches, most of the time there was plenty of life left in all the other parts, and we were usually too skint to replace them until things like teeth were coming off the flywheel and the splines on the pressure plate had lost their springiness. This could take years to happen and tens of thousands of miles, so often it was just the plate which was replaced. Melvin, I'm trying to picture what's going on inside the Ducato for so much work to be necessary after such a short time. Do you know which bit failed, how was it likely to have happened, and why was it necessary to replace everything? But how is fair wear and tear now defined? These things should go on for years with big mileages. Premature wear tended to be down to someone's driving style (like riding the clutch), or perhaps fluid leaking onto the clutch plate, causing judder. It seems astonishing that now after under 10,000 miles a whole new clutch assembly is par for the course, as if they're regular consumable items. I've just been reading threads on other forums about motorhomers breaking down abroad, due to Fiat clutch failure, again often after low mileages. Whilst it's a worry, I suppose the question is one of percentages in relation to the number of Ducato motorhomes and the likelihood of it happening when compared to other manufacturers. Where's Nick when you need him? Perhaps he can offer an opinion. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Melvin - 2012-10-03 9:31 AM Shaun - 2012-10-03 7:40 AM Can I ask Melvin what Fiat meant by clutch failure? There are various components and it seems unlikely they all went at the same time. As the cost to replace was nearly a grand, was the whole assembly replaced or just the offending part(s)? Shaun Hi Shaun, 'clutch failure' in Fiats eyes is failure due to manafacturing fault, and yes eveything was replaced including the transmission fluid Surely replacing "everything" will then have added very significantly to the cost. Why did they not drop the gearbox to get at the clutch, and then simply replace the clutch pressure-plates if that is the only component that had failed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm thinking if that fluid was changed as well, then contamination - bits of metal in there for example - might be the case. This suggests something more than just the clutch plate. That aside, I'm wondering whether the prevailing approach at dealers is that once the box is dropped, it's considered false economy to just replace the plate, even if that's the only part which is shot. Frankly, I'd like to know exactly what's at fault before agreeing to a full parts replacement. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hello Campers. Not sure where to start..... A 2.3 engine is not sufficient for a 4.2T camper. Had to get that out of the way first. I can't really blame those that buy them; it is the idiots that offer them for sale that need their heads examining! The clutch kit from Fiat is a 2 part affair and is normally available fromthe dealers at about £250. It is also available at £140 from the dealers that are in the 'Club Ricambi' promotion. This compares well with the motor factor price of £189 for the Valeo OE item. Remember though that the clutch kit may be an exchange item and there may be a surcharge if you want to retain it; probably £30 to £40. The clutches on these vehicles normally last between 70,000 and 100,000 miles in panel vans that are driven hard. You should expect 40,000 to 60,000 if you have a heavy camper. This is for a worn-out clutch, not a broken one! We have had several failures due to springs breaking and becoming wedged between the surfaces and either preventing movement or stripping the friction surface away completely. This has happened at anything from 10,000 to 50,000 miles. We did have to fit a second clutch before 80,000 miles on one vehicle because of the failure. The clutch kit does not include the hydraulic slave cylinder and this has to be changed at the same time as the clutch because it goes inside the bell housing. These are about £130. You would only change the master cylinder (near the clutch pedal) if you had suspicions that it might be leaking and failures are rare. They are about £70. The labour time for the job on any standard cab is approx 4.5 hours at whatever labour rate the dealer charges. If you have an A class like a Hymer they may well charge a little more. If their rate was £70 per hour and they did the clutch and slave cylinder that would be about £315 for that, then about £380 for parts plus £20 for the gear oil. Add VAT to that and you are at just over £850. This puts the job at somewhere in the realms of possibility. To put your mind at rest i would have asked how exactly it had 'failed' but at the end of the day everybody drives differently and all vehicles are slightly different so I would advise against a wave of fear spreading because of your misfortune. General advice is to keep your foot off the clutch when you are not operating it, avoid slipping the clutch more than is absolutely necessary and allow the clutch to cool down after a particularly difficult slipping frenzy! Don't use the clutch to hold your vehicle on a hill for more than a moment; it's what your hand brake is for. I am sure I did not need to say any of that but if just one person learns one thing...... Regarding the warranty; It make me so mad that you have to agree to pay the dealer to remove the gearbox BEFORE they can determine whether the clutch will be a valid warranty claim. That means that you are stuck with thier inflated labour charges and are at the mercy of them and Fiat to decide who pays. Not good customer service! Nick PS. It's good practice to change the gearbox oil at the time of removing the box. It may go for years without attention unless the clutch or gearbox fails. It also makes the gearbox lighter for the guy that has to remove and replace it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Very informative, Nick. To you, does it seem fair for Fiat to refer to things like the early failure of springs as wear and tear? It seems there's a major knock-on effect when it happens? Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hi Shaun, No, absolutely not and on the few that have suffered early failure (during the warranty period) these have been replaced by the dealer without charge. They obviously won't entertain any that are worn out, but where there have been spring failures this was covered by the 'manufacturing defects' clause. It's an unfortunate fact that many camper conversions will not do enough miles to show up the problem within the warranty period. I do think Fiat should have a policy for dealing with such cases, but since no other manufacturer does; i would not pin too much hope on that. I also understand that there was a batch of rogue clutch slave cylinders that were made by Valeo and appeared on some 2011 vehicles and also were sold as after-market items. We have seen several of these; most failed as soon as they were fitted. (Which was annoying). Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 euroserv - 2012-10-03 11:58 AM Hello Campers. Not sure where to start..... A 2.3 engine is not sufficient for a 4.2T camper. Had to get that out of the way first. I can't really blame those that buy them; it is the idiots that offer them for sale that need their heads examining! Nick., Thats a shame, I'm in the process of buying one, surely a 150 bhp engine is 'man enough' to propel this vehicle (130 bhp is the standard) the biggest available is 180 bhp 3 litre. Do these vehicles, on the 'maxi' chassis have 'beefier' clutches than the standard panel vans ? or are they all the same ? I hope not. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs T Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Mr T says It may be 'man enough' on paper if you only run it along a level sea front, but adding normal everyday standard extras can reverse the situation. There is only one answer. Always employ the largest power supply that is available for the job in hand, in the end its the most economical route. Mrs T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawki Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Small engines have been lugging big loads for donkeys years without any major problems, I suggest this is a problem created in the land of Fiat X250's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliB Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Mrs T - 2012-10-04 3:56 AM Mr T says It may be 'man enough' on paper if you only run it along a level sea front, but adding normal everyday standard extras can reverse the situation. There is only one answer. Always employ the largest power supply that is available for the job in hand, in the end its the most economical route. Mrs T Mr T must be power hungry. I have a 2.3 130 on a 4000Kg chassis and find it more than adequate for my requirements. In 2009 it had the A and B modifications. The B mod gave a lower reverse and 1st gear and the clutch changed. The Fiat dealer told methat the supplied parts were different for the 4000Kg chassis. First gear is very low, you want to change into second as soon as forward motion starts. So there is no problem with hills. It pulls well all the way to over the speed limit on autobahns. On motorway hills at 50-60mph you have to drop down a gear from 6th or 5th if you want to accelerate passed a vehicle. If you cannot be bothered to change down you should be going for an auto box. A pre purchase test drive can be difficult as the vehicle will not be fully laden so you may not get a true picture. 130BHP is good for me. On the subject of the OPs clutch failure it could be that most of damage was done prior to the modification. I know I severely abused the clutch in 2008 trying to reverse up a steepish hill. If it had not been replaced and uprated it would probably be worn out by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 3 litres are not immune despite what FIAT claim. I bought an AT Scout in 2008 and the clutch failed after 200 miles whilst reversing on to a pitch. The 'twerp' from FIAT 'customer (don't) care' was a slimy piece of do-do. It was 'assessed' by the now defunct Fiat Camper Assist in Warrington and,surprise, I wasn't permitted access to the report "its on the system and we can't get it". But there were faults occouring everytime it went out the best was a brake failure warning whilst cruising at 70 in lane 2 on the northern M6,starter battery failing 4 times on holiday and a persistent 'thump' on start up. This was a great upset apart from annoyance as the Auto Trail conversion was excellent. I originally requested the conversion on a Mercedes,but was told that they were now being built on the Fiat chassis,interesting that now they are building on Mercs again. I cut my losses,such as they were and went for a Hymer on a Transit,much happier now. It will be a cold day in Hell before I consider a Fiat anything again,their customer service was deplorable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Melvin - 2012-10-02 1:48 PM Hi, My 2008 Autotrail Cheyenne 660SE clutch has failed @ 9400 miles, it had the gearbox reverse modification carried out in 2009 @2500 miles. I was under the impression that as part of the modifications an uprated clutch was fitted, apparently not, there was 2 kit A and B, only B included the uprated clutch. It would appear my motorhome was fitted with kit A i.e no clutch replacement, but Fiat and the Fiat dealer cannot confirm, although Fiat and the dealer confirm it failed due to 'fair wear and tear' and not down to a manafacturing fault, and yes I did ask for the clutch back at the time, but unfortunately it had been disposed of, how convenient. Anyway, total cost of clutch replacement £949.27, as regards warranty on the new uprated clutch, I asked the question if it fails in the next 1000 miles 'only if it has a manafacturing fault' it is not covered for 'fair wear and tear'. I am so happy with Fiat I wish Fiat had been honest with me at the time of the modifications and had given me the option of paying for the uprated clutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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