Towing a car with a motor home

[Les Sykes]

Does any one know the exact legal position on towing a small car behind your motor home in Europe, I know all the countries have different laws, and in some you can tow using an A frame and in others it must be on a trailer, but what is the definitive? Is there a web site or information pages anywhere on it? Les

[docted]

Les there is no "definitive legal" position regarding use of an A-frame yet. Search on this forum for A-frame there are lots of opinions but it is down to you whether or not you use an A-frame. You are probably safer using a trailer to avoid any possible complications but lots of people use A-frames without any problems legal or otherwise. But whatever you choose happy motoring! Good luck Docted

[brenroy]

les i've just come back from europe, done 4000miles towing a yaris on an a-frame, had a few strange looks but no trouble

[Clive]

Try reversing it round a corner with an A frame??? Try finding somewhere on your pitch to park the trailer? Considered the Vespa 250cc 90 MPH Scooter in the garage? Decisions decisions!

[david lloyd]

Good luck with your quest for a definitive view Les but, as docted says, it will come down to your own judgement in the end. For what it is worth, we too tow a Yaris on a Car-a-Tow A Frame. Have had no difficulty with it and I can reverse it too! My word of caution on the matter would be that not all (so called) A Frames are the same and some are most definitely illegal - so do beware if you choose this route and (after reading the various htreads on the forum on A Frames) do your homework. Best regards, david. ps - we chose to tow the car as we can no longer ride cycles (bad knees/hips etc), after many years on the ambulance service I avoid motorbikes like the plague and the car on a trailer option has just too many irritations such as storing the trailer at home and on site.

[nickyclive]

We have spent a few years with a scooter with the motorhome, but like David LLoyd, the joints won`t allow getting on and off the bike any more, though we have driven it through Barcelona, Rome and Paris , to name a few. Very scarey (but free parking!) We have just bought a new van with a towbar and tow a smart car on a braked trailer as, having read many letters and articles in the MMM magazine, it appears that this is the most legal option in Europe, we do not want to be lumbered with a large fine. The only downside that we can see is that we might have to pay for a second car on some sites as happens in UK. We can quite easily take the car off the trailer and park the trailer and the car next to the van on a pitch and have done so on several sites in UK so far. It is easier if the pitch can take both without un-hitching.

[Clive]

Now I am confused! I regularly reverse our small motorcycle trailer round corners using the Orlaco rear view camera as my wife likes saying "we should have turned left there". But we are also looking at towing the wife,s small car in the future. Overall A frame,s look more attractive to us as its less junk to park at the end and easier to be ready to use the car. BUT One of the MMM team say its impossible to reverse an A frame connected car more than a couple of yards because of the geometry. But above in a previous post it's said to be easy. Can one reverse an A frame connected car around a corner is the question? A detailed answer to this specific question would be appreciated. Ta C.

[olley]

Hi Les the rule is if it’s legal in our country then under European rules its legal in Europe. Whether its legal in Britain is the question, and under a strict interpretation of trailer laws its not, but the powers that be have declined to prosecute anyone, and I would guess are unlikely ever to do so. A proper braked car trailer is 100% legal but a lot more hassle, and you need to be reasonably fit to move it about. I have never found a problem parking the trailer, if there is room for the awning, there is room for the trailer up the side of the van. Olley

[Mel E]

Clive, There's just been a mega thread on reversing A-frames, so do have a look via a search. In summary, the problem is that the car - as a trailer - has fixed rear wheels and castor steering front wheels. Reversing straight back while everything is in the straight ahead position is no problem, but doing so when the front wheels are NOT straight ahead simply sends them over on full lock. It IS possible, with immense skill and practice to overcome this problem, but, frankly, it's not for ordinary mortals. As for the legal position see next post on this thread.

[Mel E]

THE LEGAL POSITION I covered this in some detail in the MMM Articles 'It Ain't Heavy . . .' just over a year ago. The problem with A frames is simple: 1. To be legal trailers, they must display all trailer signs (including white bordered rear reflector) and MUST be braked (there is no realistic car under 750 Kgs Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)). 2. The law relating to trailers is now uniform in just about all respects across the EU. This law says nothing about A-frames at all, except in respect of vehicle recovery where special rules do apply. 3. The first question is does the A-frame, overrun braking system and peripherals turn the car into a trailer? Nobody has yet tested this in court, so we simply don't know. 4. Even if it does become a trailer, is it legal? A problem, since English Law basically works on the principle that, if it ain't agin the law then it's legal. The French (Napoleonic) system works on the opposite principle - if it isn't specifically permitted by the law, then it's not legal. That's why it isn't legal in most of Europe. 5. Relying on the rule that, if it's legal in your own country, then you can legally import a vehicle for up to 6 months into any other EU country is, to say the least, fraught, since it is NOT clear whether or not it's actually legal in the UK. 6. So most of the time, yes, the locals look on in a mixture of amazement and envy, since they definitely cannot do it! Most Police take the same attitude, but not all. I have met four A-frame towers who have been subject to on-the-spot fines; all, fortunately had a second driver, so could uncouple the car and continue separately. A final point - this can be a very simple way of towing a car. But my own experience, using the market leading system, was far from comfortable. As I've said before, I was cautious enough to fit temp and pressure sensors to the car's wheels, radio connected to a display in the towing vehicle. When the brakes failed to release properly (first a problem of bad fitting by the supplier and then a fairly common brake caliper problem), this sytem sounded the warnings before all the tyres overheated and blew out (they reached 85C on one occasion). So I'm no longer sure of the system's safety or reliability and I've stopped towing. After all, none of these systems are subjected to the testing a car undergoes, or that undergone by trailer suspensions, brakes, etc. A simple problem with the brakes not releasing will cause a potentially serious accident.

[Dave Newell]

Clive, Try reversing your wife's car (or any other motor vehicle for that matter) without touching the steering wheel (do it in a large open space) and see how far you can go before the steering turns itself. Even at low speed it will turn one way or the other. Once the steering has started to move it will go to full lock. That is the problem with reversing a car on an A frame. I've just tried it in my Bedford Rascal van and at tickover in reverse with the steering straight ahead and on level ground I managed about 7 yards before it started to turn, another 7 yards had it on full lock! If you are very skilled you might be able to get the towed car to go in the direction you want but if the steering goes to full lock (which it will) you will force the cars front wheels to skid which not only causes undue wear on those tyres but also loads up all the suspension, A frame attachment points, A frame itself, towbar etc with sideways forces that are likely to be far in excess of what all that was designed to take. D.

[Clive]

It was David Lloyds comment that threw me. I was aware of Dave Newells comments which I thought I understood. I was also aware of Mel,s comments about the legal position but I am also aware that Mel towed a car on a A frame behind a previous motorhome as well. So on balance the equasion came out in favour for him at the time. Murky waters I guess. One debate to be kicked around next week end. Perhaps GOOTLER can set up a FAQ section for A frames? Regards Clive

[johnsandywhite]

8-) Just as an aside to towing with an 'A' frame. Paul (UK-RV) is currently touring the USA. He bought a new RV and a Ford Focus. He had all the correct fittings fitted and set off on his tour. The car was being towed. He had travelled just 7 miles when someone waved him to pull over. When he did, he found the wheel trims has totally melted and there was a really bad burning smell. He took the car to a garage who said to take it to ford - luckily only 2 miles away. Ford took a look and said just about everything to do with wheels and brakes needed replacing. Everything had just melted - except brake pads which looked fine ! Those who tow? Beware. 8-)

[Dave Newell]

So do ya really wanna tow on an A frame? Well do Ya???? D.

[Clive]

Dave Um! Makes you think. That's the same problem Mel had if my memory is correct. But if you or I had done the engineering to operate the brake pedal it would have worked correctly!! OOpps Must release the hand brake. C.

[Mel B]

And the next question is ... do you really want to DRIVE a car that has been towed when you don't know what damage has been caused???

[Brian Kirby]

May I ask a question?

Why tow a car with a motorhome? 

I assume this mainly arises where the motorhome is deemed too large to get to all the places one wishes to visit, and the car, being compact, offers that extra flexibility.  Bikes, scooters, etc being disregarded for other - equally valid - reasons.

I ask because a car, even on a trailer, behind a large motorhome, is one of the most awkward tows imaginable.  For stability towing, and especially for ease of reversing the trailer, the best combination is a short tow vehicle (with a very short rear overhang) towing a relatively long trailer.

A long motorhome towing a short car trailer is almost literally putting cart before horse!

The implication of this arrangement is that the motorhome will spend fairly extended times static, while the owner tootles around in the car.  He/she will probably be asked for additional fees if campsites are used.  This suggests to me that this combination of vehicles is wrong for the purpose.

So, at pain of causing irritation, why not put the horse back where it belongs and tow the home with the car?  Accepting that both have drawbacks, the latter just seems to have fewer than the former. 

If it's manoeuvering a caravan on site that is the worry, the advent of "Motor-mover" type remote control battery drives for caravans virtually makes manhandling unnecessary.

I know this largely influenced by personal preferences, but I am intrigued as to its appeal.

Hope you won't mind me asking!

Regards

[colin]

I don't tow a car, or even intead to if/when I get a bigger motorhome but the following occurs to me Just because someone tows a car doesn't mean they allways tow a car Also, why not if they want too, each to there own.

[enodreven]

Hi, I have been wondering how the cost of:- the trailer or special "A" frame the extra fuel for towing the extra ferry charges the extra site fees wear and tear on the car and MH the cost of the tow bar the insurance the depreciation the stress in towing compares to the cost of hiring of a car should you need one be interesting to know if anyone has carried out the comparison Brian

[Clive]

Brians point is very valid. Basic logic points one that way. But for lots of other reasons. Naa there is not a cat in hells chance that we will go back to towing a caravan, even if the tow vehicle is a Landcruiser!. Far too many down sides. Much more limitation on weight carrying. Like a full water tank for example. Then there is the tow vehicle. Unless its a large commercial van it will be a car engine working overtime when towing a caravan. A motorhome is a commercial engine designed for the duty and having an easy job. Then there is the driving position. The Motorhome wins hands down. High seats, upright seating position, Brilliant visibility over hedges etc. Plus there are many ocasions when one doesn,t want the second vehicle and with a caravan its a bit of a problem leaving the car at home. Which motorhomes have a garage that will take a Vauxhall Agila? And some answers to the other Brian :- I have been wondering how the cost of:- The trailer or special "A" frame . Say £1000 The extra fuel for towing Minimal. our twin motorcycle trailer reduced MPG from 28 down to 26.6. The extra ferry charges Ouch!. Dover Calais £80.00 each way with Sea France. The extra site fees Never been charged any extra for the two motorcycles and trailer but understand cars get charged unless they have a caravan attached.?? Wear and tear on the car and MH. Minimal if done properly. The cost of the tow bar . Zero, its already fitted. The insurance. Is there any extra? The depreciation . I don,t think it makes any difference. A modern car will not even put the miles towed on the speedo as its electronic and the ignition is not turned ON far enough to power the electronics. The stress in towing . Only when reversing in busy traffic because we have overshot the turning! Four way flashers on, headlights on main beam, and start on the wrong side of the road facing the oncomming traffic. That normally puts you in a commanding position and you reverse in the direction of traffic flow. C.

[olley]

Hi Brian this is how I feel. My thoughts refer to M/H over 20’ as those under 20’ can go most places a car can so don’t need a toad. What advantage does a caravan have over a motorhome? Initial cost is one, and possibly fuel consumption is another, but what other? M/H are self-contained and can stop anywhere, only needing a dump point every 3 days or so. Onsite a caravan can equal some aspects of a M/H, off site and a caravan is struggling. Arriving on site with an A frame I can be set up in 10 minutes, 20 minutes if the cars on a trailer. Driving, any distance crammed in a 4x4, large saloon or in a M/H Towing, a 1.5tonne vehicle towing a 1tonne caravan or 3.5tonne M/H towing a 1 tonne car. If the worst happens and you’re involved in an accident, who comes of worst car or M/H? With my 30’ RV all the above points go double. I think the question should if you can afford a M/H why tow a caravan? Olley

[david lloyd]

Clive - as you are trying to make a serious judgement about whether to tow on an A-frame or trailer and, as I know you to be a person of a sensible nature, I thought I would just expand a little on my comments. One thing's for sure - the question of which type of secondary transport is best for you can only be answered by you when comparing each one to your own requirements and situation. In relation to A-frames I have often seen the sweeping statement made that 'Towing with an A-frame is illegal'. Well, I rather think that 'Towing with an A-frame that does not conform to the relevent legal requirements' is more accurate. The main stumbling point for most people seems to be the issue of whether or not the towed car can be reversed. In this respect I confess to having no in depth knowledge of mechanical engineering design but I do have personal first hand experience of reversing a Car-A-Tow A-frame. I have no connection with this company and make mention earlier in the thread that not all A-frames are the same and some are definitely illegal in use. Alan Bee (designer of the Car-A-Tow frame) has carried out extensive testing of the various aspects of the A-frame that need to comply with the law and subsequently, in April 2004, published an open letter in which he states: "There are specific regulations concerning this (reversing) requirement and the Car-A-Tow system can meet the requirements as stated in UN-ECE Regulation No.13, Annexe 12, Page 137, Paragraph 3:4 and 3:5, providing the system is fitted and operated correctly and is in good condition." He goes on to say that these tests have been demonstarted to various experts and can be repeated as often as is required. He also says that if anyone wishes to challenge any points he makes (in relation to the legality of A-frame towing) they are invited to contact him at ProTow Frames with details of which aspect of A-frame towing they consider to be illegal. He can be contacted on 01202 634456. A full copy of the letter can also be obtained from this source. Much has been made of the issue of whether or not the car can be reversed around a corner. But is this a requirement? A few days watching activity on a campsite will throw up many examples of people who simply cannot reverse a standard, single axle trailer onto a pitch. Indeed, I have been asked to reverse a trailer for someone before now and also know at least two people who cannot reverse their (solo) car around a corner without ending up on the kerb. Does this deter them from towing a caravan to the four corners of this green and pleasant land? And what do they do should they ever find themselves in the wrong location and politely informed by TomTom's Jane to "Turn around when possible"? I think the favoured method, if a roundabout is not imminent, is to 'go round the block' to point the caravan in the opposite direction. It is established then (and acknowledged by others on this thread) that the car on an A-frame can be reversed if necessary. If it were a requirement that it must be capable of being reversed around a corner (which it is not), but becomes illegal because it is difficult to do so, then every caravan is therefore illegal isn't it? - simply because someone, somewhere cannot reverse it? Finally, there is the issue of the fault that Mel experienced with the brakes on his car when being towed and the incident with the Ford Focus. Obviously there was a mechanical problem, either with the rig or the way it was setup and used, and I cannot explain why. However, to draw the conclusion that it was the result of towing the car on an A-frame cannot be logical when the thousands and thousands of miles undertaken every year by cars towed in this way without suffering the same fate indicates otherwise. I have also heard of incidents where the brakes on a trailer have stuck on - but we do not warn others not to tow with a trailer. There was a thread recently on a motorhome forum telling of an RV user whose brakes also locked on while driving and he had the wherewithall to fix the problem himself - but still chooses to carry on using an RV and we do not warn against using them. We often take no other form of transport with us and manage very well if nearby towns or places of interest are accessible within our limited walking distance or via public transport. For reasons explained earlier, we can no longer use pedal cycles as secondary transport and would not use motorcycles. We occasionally do find the need to have some form of secondary transport though and the choice came down to towing a car on a trailer or an A-frame. I felt that, in use, the A-frame offered an easier, more convenient method of taking the car and I do not have the space to store a car trailer. So, occasionally, we do take the car as our chosen form of secondary transport and I still believe that my A-frame setup complies with the relevent legislation (otherwise I would not use it) and I am not convinced that using it responsibly is causing untold damage to either the car or the motorhome. Hope this gives you some more food for thought in your consideration of which way to go. My advice would always be to gather as much information, from as many sources as possible, and even to 'try before your buy' if you can. Best regards, david

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]olley - 2006-07-09 12:52 AM Hi Brian this is how I feel. My thoughts refer to M/H over 20’ as those under 20’ can go most places a car can so don’t need a toad. What advantage does a caravan have over a motorhome? Initial cost is one, and possibly fuel consumption is another, but what other? M/H are self-contained and can stop anywhere, only needing a dump point every 3 days or so. Onsite a caravan can equal some aspects of a M/H, off site and a caravan is struggling. Arriving on site with an A frame I can be set up in 10 minutes, 20 minutes if the cars on a trailer. Driving, any distance crammed in a 4x4, large saloon or in a M/H Towing, a 1.5tonne vehicle towing a 1tonne caravan or 3.5tonne M/H towing a 1 tonne car. If the worst happens and you’re involved in an accident, who comes of worst car or M/H? With my 30’ RV all the above points go double. I think the question should if you can afford a M/H why tow a caravan? Olley[/QUOTE]

Thanks Olley, and others.

Well, of course, I did ask!  However, I wasn't seeking to argue in favour of caravans, or against motorhomes.  I was interested in why others make the choices they do, when I can't follow their logic.

Having fairly recently (last year) changed from caravan to motorhome, I can see many advantages to the motorhome (although I still think ours a bit too "fat") over the caravan.

However, the main rason for the change was to be rid of towing.  Truth told, I had never been happy with that incommunicative lump dangling on the back of the car: it always nagged at me that it was out of touch and I couldn't feel what it was up to.

So with a trailer on the back of a motorhome, but I think worse, because you won't even be able to see it in the mirrors - unless you are reversing round a bend of course, or it's overtaking you (or have a rear view camera)!

To Olley's points, however I would just like to say this.

I think width and height, rather than length, present the greatest difficulty in getting motorhomes to where cars can go.

Advantage of caravan over motorhome.  Nil, nor vice versa.  It's in the eye of the beholder!

Caravans are now coming with on board tanks, though I wouldn't want to tow one such!  However, I think this is a "wild camping" question, and I don't think caravans are at all suited to that.  As for "stop anywhere" - you can't really do that with either.  Most municipal car parks are out of the question for both, so is much on street parking: you even have to choose your supermarket car parks with great care!

On site I would say even.  Once pitched, where does either score?

Time to set up.  Motorhome with no trailer - just long enough to plug in, if required!  Score!  Motorhome with trailer, same as with caravan but, if you're on a campsite, car + caravan is probably cheaper.  Solo vehicles 1 - trailers 0!

Space while driving: well, I can only occupy one seat at a time!  However, the larger vehicle does require more road space, so I'd guess must be mostly confined to main roads/motorways.  For me, that's a big disadvantage.

I don't think Olley's towing comparison is valid.  Both vehicles are doing something they were not primarily designed for (except some 4x4 vehicles).  The heavier vehicle should be more stable but, unless carefully chosen, may leave the trailer more unstable.  Both will be operating near, or at, their max gross train weight, so are close to their engineering limits.

Accident, who knows?  Choose your accident.  Motorhomes are not crash tested, nor are cars towing caravans, although cars themselves are.  Motorhomes, with the exception of van conversions, are weak structures and the cab end of coachbuilts is often modified in ways that are untested as to their residual strength (cut away cab roofs and bulkheads).  Even van conversions often have the steel roof cut out and an untested fibreglass "high top" substituted.  As for A classes, a few have a bit of metal framing - but that could just as easily kill as protect - and the rest are generally lightweight wooden frames covered in fibreglass and/or thin aluminium sheet.  Most worrying is all that weight inside the motorhome that is only held in place with a few screws.  God alone knows what happens inside in a head on.  Flying tables and fridges must cause horrific injury if they come up behind you at 60mph!  Don't try this at home!!

It all comes back to personal choice.  I think I'd find your 30' RV completely unusable, and hopelessly encumbering to boot if also towing a car.  I'm now looking for a 20', or thereabouts, motorhome that is under 9' high and less than 7' wide.  Only 3 candidates so far, but none quite seem right yet!

Regards

[olley]

Hi Brian while I think some of your points in defence of a caravan are valid towing isn't one of them. I have never seen a car trailer with a stabiliser fitted, but I have seen plenty of caravans. A high sided 12' caravan is inherently unstable compared to a low 12' car trailer. Don’t understand why you think a heavier vehicle should make a light trailer unstable? The heavier the dog the harder it is for the tail to wag it. (lol) Olley

[Dave Newell]

Hi all, To Olley, stabilisers are for caravanners who don't know how to load their vans safely. I have towed many times and all sorts of trailers, I even towed a two ton Sherpa van on a four wheel trailer behind a Marina pick up, that was almost certainly illegal and very entertaining (had to dab the brakes to get the front wheels to take it round a corner) and I've never neede to use a stabiliser. We are drifting from the original subject slightly with caravans but I too have used both. We had a 12 foot caravan for a year or two and towed it behind our Bedford CF camper. It towed beautifully but I hated every moment it was behind me. Personally I don't see any need to tow a car behind our camper but I don't presume to tell others that they shouldn't. A frames have definite legal issues that have yet to be tested in a court of law, I for one beleive they are illegal in several areas as well as the problems associated with reversing but till someone gets taken to court for using one there is no definitive answer. My feelings are that if you feel the need to tow a car then do it with a trailer. D.