stantheman Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 The last thing I want to do is to perpetuate the discussion on A-frames, it’s been aired ad nauseam, but the following incident may be of some interest to fellow A-framers. Recently when returning from a few days in the Norfolk Broads, towing my Ford Ka (on an A-Frame), I was pulled over by a police traffic car on the A 47, just south of Norwich. After accepting the police officer’s request to join him at the rear of my vehicle, he asked me if I knew the maximum weight for a towed vehicle. Despite knowing the answer I pleaded innocence at which he told me that it was 750 kg for an unbraked trailer. He then pointed to the A frame and said, ‘did you have that made up, sir?’. I explained that it was a proprietary piece of kit and was available from several manufacturers and that it incorporated a braked system. I then opened the car and indicated the Brake Buddy at which he showed some surprise and declared that he had never come across this before. He asked me how it worked. I explained the inertia system and demonstrated it by pressing the test button which actuates the hydraulic pressure to the towed car’s brake. Evidently impressed, he called over his colleague who also expressed surprise. His final appraisal was that the weight of my Ford Ka was not an issue with such a braked system. After a few minutes chat I mentioned that the A-frame was not looked upon kindly on mainland Europe, especially by Portuguese police. At which he said, ‘it’s legal here so it’s legal in Europe’. He then apologised for stopping me and wished me well on my journey. All of this was reassuring, but what I did find strange was that he had never encountered the A-frame system before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 stantheman - 2012-10-06 7:37 PM The last thing I want to do is to perpetuate the discussion on A-frames, it’s been aired ad nauseam, but the following incident may be of some interest to fellow A-framers. Recently when returning from a few days in the Norfolk Broads, towing my Ford Ka (on an A-Frame), I was pulled over by a police traffic car on the A 47, just south of Norwich. After accepting the police officer’s request to join him at the rear of my vehicle, he asked me if I knew the maximum weight for a towed vehicle. Despite knowing the answer I pleaded innocence at which he told me that it was 750 kg for an unbraked trailer. He then pointed to the A frame and said, ‘did you have that made up, sir?’. I explained that it was a proprietary piece of kit and was available from several manufacturers and that it incorporated a braked system. I then opened the car and indicated the Brake Buddy at which he showed some surprise and declared that he had never come across this before. He asked me how it worked. I explained the inertia system and demonstrated it by pressing the test button which actuates the hydraulic pressure to the towed car’s brake. Evidently impressed, he called over his colleague who also expressed surprise. His final appraisal was that the weight of my Ford Ka was not an issue with such a braked system. After a few minutes chat I mentioned that the A-frame was not looked upon kindly on mainland Europe, especially by Portuguese police. At which he said, ‘it’s legal here so it’s legal in Europe’. He then apologised for stopping me and wished me well on my journey. All of this was reassuring, but what I did find strange was that he had never encountered the A-frame system before. Well you were in Norfolk!!! :-D ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolly1965 Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 He probably had encountered A-framed system but assumed it was unbraked. I guess the brake buddy is still rare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 You had a police officer who had no idea of what a brake buddy was giving you advise on it's legality across europe! I think you know how to take his 'expert' advise. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 stantheman - 2012-10-06 7:37 PM At which he said, ‘it’s legal here so it’s legal in Europe’. Hmmm ... how can he say it is legal here as it doesn't meet the required trailer regs ... and then that it is legal in Europe - he can't possibly know if it is or isn't. The phrase "salt", "a pinch of" and "take it with" come to mind. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Mel B - 2012-10-06 9:24 PM stantheman - 2012-10-06 7:37 PM At which he said, ‘it’s legal here so it’s legal in Europe’. Hmmm ... how can he say it is legal here as it doesn't meet the required trailer regs ... and then that it is legal in Europe - he can't possibly know if it is or isn't. The phrase "salt", "a pinch of" and "take it with" come to mind. :-S The phrase "salt", "a pinch of" and "take it with" come to mind and Mangel worzel! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 A couple of years ago in France we where sited next to a retired police officer, in fact he was upto that time he had been the longest serving motorway patrol officer in the country. We discussed A Frames, I can,t remember his thoughts on the subject, *-) However I do recall him saying that the problems with the new recruits, while they may know health and safety, they haven't a clue when it comes to the law, other than the obvious, road tax, insurance etc. I was stopped by a young VOSA officer on the m6, during discussions he told me he had towed a mini on a A Frame, grass track racing. When I said I thought these type where for recovery only with a speed and range limitation, he gave me a withering look. I thanked him and left promptly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantheman Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 As I said, I didn't really want to initiate yet another tedious discussion on the legality of A-frames. As people have pointed out in the past, there is ample information on this forum already. I merely thought it reassuring that the weight of the towed vehicle was not considered an issue with this system. I dare say that we can trust this officer's knowledge on that point, (Norfolk Constabulary or not!). Anyway, he showered benedictions upon me and sent me on my way, which is all that I wanted. Incidentally, it's worth noting how something that has become an industry is difficult to abolish. I am told that when the new number plate system was adopted, the powers that be would have liked to scrap all the old ones (so-called cherished numbers) but too many livelihoods depended on their continued existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 The officers pronoucement about weight shows he has little understanding about the law, even if it was below 750kg as it has brakes they are required by law to work. A framing in UK is a tiny industry and the government has made laws which bans or effectively bans much larger industries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod_vw Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Seen last week in France, a French registered Rapido with a Renault Twingo behind on a 'Systeme Bleu' A frame. Systeme Bleu is the trade name that Car-a-Tow use in France, see http://www.systemebleu.com Legal or not, who really knows but this is proof that the French are using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I've just had a look at the link to the French site and one of the FAQ is: Q. Est-ce que ce système est autorise en France ? Le cadre-a-tracter Système Bleu est fabriqué de materiel conformant aux normes de la Communauté Européenne, est porte son propre Déclaration de Conformité. Par décision du Ministère de Transport Anglais, la voiture équipée d'un tel cadre-a-tracter soit traitée en tant que remorque sous condition que les feux ainsi que les freins fonctionnent en conformité de la loi pour une remorque. Selon la législation en vigueur, il doit être accepté partout en Europe. Which translates as: Q. Is this system authorised in France? Part-a-tow system is made of blue material conforming to the standards of the European Community, is carries its own Declaration of Conformity. By decision of the Ministry of Transport England, the car equipped with such a tow-frame is treated as a trailer provided lights and brakes work in accordance with the law for a trailer. According to the law, it must be accepted everywhere in Europe. I just hope that no French purchaser gets pulled and then tries to rely on the above to 'get off' with a fine ... :-S The ONLY way I would use one of these if I wanted to, would be have a GUARANTEE from the company that if I was FINED in any way, that THEY would pick up the tab! :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantheman Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 colin - 2012-10-07 1:35 PM The officers pronoucement about weight shows he has little understanding about the law, even if it was below 750kg as it has brakes they are required by law to work. A framing in UK is a tiny industry and the government has made laws which bans or effectively bans much larger industries. ...for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 stantheman - 2012-10-07 7:21 PM colin - 2012-10-07 1:35 PM The officers pronoucement about weight shows he has little understanding about the law, even if it was below 750kg as it has brakes they are required by law to work. A framing in UK is a tiny industry and the government has made laws which bans or effectively bans much larger industries. ...for example? Cad plating for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Mel B - 2012-10-07 5:18 PM ...The ONLY way I would use one of these if I wanted to, would be have a GUARANTEE from the company that if I was FINED in any way, that THEY would pick up the tab! :-| This A-frame-system-supplying company offers an "Extended Warranty" with terms and conditions that include payment of fines. http://www.smart-tow.com/faqs.htm This is fine ;-) but it would still leave the preson who had been fined with a potential stain on their driving record. I assume that the fact that a UK motorcaravanner has been fined for A-framing under, say, Spanish law, does not get recorded on that person's UK driving licence, and I strongly suspect that insurance companies are allowed to remain ignorant of such 'offences'. Nevertheless, even if Smart-Tow will refund such fines, that won't wipe the offence-slate clean. I recall that, when the "Brake Buddy" system began to be marketed in the UK, its compliance with UK regulations was questioned. The current Brake Buddy UK website seems to offer no help on this and there are reservations expressed in this 2011 MHF thread: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-109936-towing-with-a-brake-buddy.html If it's accepted that an A-frame-towed car can be considered (under UK law) a 'trailer', and the car's brakes are being operated when it's being towed, then the car is clearly not an "unbraked trailer". You don't need to be a police officer to appreciate this basic concept, nor to understand that the 750kg rule won't apply. However, if the system employed to operate the car's brakes does not comply with UK regulations, all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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