Scotland get a yes/no vote

[Guest pelmetman]

Should of asked the English ;-) ...................more chance of getting a yes vote :D

[laimeduck]

Doomed...we're all doomed!

[Tracker]

Can we assume that 'The Vital Spark' will become the flagship of the Republic of Scotland Navy?

 

I don't want to see the UK broken up but once they know that they will inherit their share of the national debt that should make 'em think twice - and if they still want to leave - goodbye and good luck - but take a look at how Ireland fared pre EU and don't count on us bailing you out!!

[Guest pelmetman]

I guess we will still be called the UK if the Scots say yes ;-)

 

 

The Ununited Kingdom :D

[Dave225]

If you lot do not behave yourselves, we won't give you your aircraft carrier back when we have finished gluing it together. Biggest kit Airfix ever made.

 

2 years is far to long a time, people will be bored rigid long before then and apathy will prevail, as usual. It will be interesting to see if the politicians actually tell the truth about what the consequences will be. No, I doubt it as well.

[Guest peter]

We can tell them what the consequences will be, they'll go bust and we will save a fortune by not subsidising them any longer. Result. But not the one alex salmon envisages I'll wager. :D

[Tracker]

Dave225 - 2012-10-15 8:08 PM

 

If you lot do not behave yourselves, we won't give you your aircraft carrier back when we have finished gluing it together. Biggest kit Airfix ever made.

 

That's OK we can fit pumps to keep the water out from the bodged Jock welding and tow it South Korea where they will finish it on time and on budget - and it will come with Hyundai's 5 year warranty!

[CliveH]

Listening to the news tonight - it does seem that the idea has not been thought through.

 

That said - if we English were given the vote in the same referendum - I am not sure that the majority would be in favour of Scotland staying in the Union given how Scotland gets more of the tax £ per person such that Long Term Care, University fees, Prescription charges and Hospital parking are all free options for people in Scotland.

 

Freebies paid for by all of us but enjoyed by some and denied to those South of the border.

 

Then we have the issue of Scottish MP's voting in the HoP on matters that effect the English, but we are unable to have any sort of vote on matters decided by the Scottish Parliament.

 

I think most of us would like a level playing field.

 

 

 

[Dave225]

CliveH - 2012-10-15 10:46 PM

 

Listening to the news tonight - it does seem that the idea has not been thought through.

 

That said - if we English were given the vote in the same referendum - I am not sure that the majority would be in favour of Scotland staying in the Union given how Scotland gets more of the tax £ per person such that Long Term Care, University fees, Prescription charges and Hospital parking are all free options for people in Scotland.

 

Freebies paid for by all of us but enjoyed by some and denied to those South of the border.

 

Then we have the issue of Scottish MP's voting in the HoP on matters that effect the English, but we are unable to have any sort of vote on matters decided by the Scottish Parliament.

 

I think most of us would like a level playing field.

 

 

 

Clive,

 

Unfortunately like many English you persist in believing a lot of basically dog's b.....s. Do not believe all you read in the Daily Screw. The reason, that on paper, we seem to get more per head is due to a complicated formula which takes into account that Scotland must get back a share of North Sea revenues which currently go direct to London. So, NO, the people of Scotland do not actually receive any more money than the rest of the UK. The money is all part of the Block Grant agreed by all Westminster governments and is allocated in a similar fashion as Government money is given to Councils. They are then allowed to spend it as they see fit. I am sure you will agree that not all Councils in England spend money identically. Health Care etc varies tremendously across England. In addition, the Scots have disproportionately worse health than the English so spending on these areas has to be higher. We have a worse climate and our salaries are lower, so we have to cut back on things that you get cheap down south. We spend more on energy and food costs tend to be higher. And while you are complaining possibly have a look at Northern Ireland which gets even more of your heard earned money.

 

The issue of Scots voting on English issues is one I tend to agree with but was exacerbated by Blair in order to push through some of his less than popular ideas. He was not bothered about whether they were Scots or English, just as long as they did what they were told. That is one reason why we threw Labour out in the last election. We did not fudge it like you lot did. However, if you feel that 62 MP's are the difference between 'aye' and 'Nae' in a total parliament of 650 MP's one does wonder what the rest are doing?

 

As for the result I feel that as things currently stand there will be a majority 'no' vote but things could change in 2 years. Unfortunately we Scots have a bad habit of taking the hump if we feel threatened, even if it is not in our best interests so I hope that the positive sides of the debate are not strangled by ill informed rhetoric. Please do not forget it was Westminster who put us in this position, we did not ask for it. People gave the SNP a mandate not because they were all gung ho for independence but they were sick to the back teeth of the miserable efforts Labour, Conservative and Lib Dems had given us over the years, which I dare say, you agree with in England. Ironically of you look at the current polls the SNP are ahead by a mile in the choice for preferred government of a devolved Scotland but are way behind when it comes to independence.

 

Anyway as it now stands the 400000 English up here wil get a chance to decide as well but Scots in England will not. You never know what might happen

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Dave225 - 2012-10-16 5:55 PM

 

 

Anyway as it now stands the 400000 English up here wil get a chance to decide as well but Scots in England will not. You never know what might happen

 

Unlike the 800000 Scots in England ;-)

[malc d]

i hope the Scots don't go independent, but, if they do, I will be interested to see the size of their air force.

 

 

 

:-|

[Tracker]

malc d - 2012-10-16 8:26 PM

 

i hope the Scots don't go independent, but, if they do, I will be interested to see the size of their air force.

 

|

 

It will comprise just two hot air balloons powered by Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon!

[Guest pelmetman]

Tracker - 2012-10-16 10:06 PM

 

malc d - 2012-10-16 8:26 PM

 

i hope the Scots don't go independent, but, if they do, I will be interested to see the size of their air force.

 

|

 

It will comprise just two hot air balloons powered by Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon!

 

I heard they'll subcontract it to Ryan Air....................apparently he'll use passengers as bombs 8-)..........................................they got the idea from some bloke jumping out off a balloon :-S

[Dave225]

pelmetman - 2012-10-16 6:17 PM

 

Dave225 - 2012-10-16 5:55 PM

 

 

Anyway as it now stands the 400000 English up here wil get a chance to decide as well but Scots in England will not. You never know what might happen

 

Unlike the 800000 Scots in England ;-)

 

Good Lord, they must have been breeding like rabbits. What do you put in the water down there??????

[malc d]

.................. and will paratroopers in the Scottish army have to wear kilts ?

 

 

 

:-|

[Dave225]

pelmetman - 2012-10-16 10:19 PM

 

Tracker - 2012-10-16 10:06 PM

 

malc d - 2012-10-16 8:26 PM

 

i hope the Scots don't go independent, but, if they do, I will be interested to see the size of their air force.

 

|

 

It will comprise just two hot air balloons powered by Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon!

 

I heard they'll subcontract it to Ryan Air....................apparently he'll use passengers as bombs 8-)..........................................they got the idea from some bloke jumping out off a balloon :-S

 

At least it may be better than an aircraft carrier with no planes Hee! Hee! And WE......have a royal yacht so there.......and you are not getting it back unless you pay us a fiver.

[malc d]

Question for Dave 225.

 

 

Will our queen still be able to use Balmoral ?

 

Or will she have to buy a time share to book two weeks there over Xmas ?

 

 

 

 

 

(This independence business is sure going to get complicated ).

 

 

:-|

[Brian Kirby]

What puzzles me is who will gain, and what will they gain, compared to the status quo? Does anyone know? Is anyone saying?

 

I just can't see any significant benefit either way, but a large amount of disbenefit both sides of the border if Scotland splits away.

 

Who will decide what "independence" means? Total severance, or partial? On whose say so? Do the Scots really believe they can simply decide for themselves how much independence they will have, as though the rest of the UK did not exist? Surely there will be wider considerations to be taken into account.

 

Do they think they can really stay integral within the UK, with the same currency, open borders, and little to no effective defence capability, just on the strength of oil and gas, a bit of under-developed hydro power, and a few distilleries and salmon farms?

 

IMO, they will end up working long hours for low pay, because anything usefully productive in Scotland will be owned by non-Scots, who will dictate the employment terms to benefit their profits, and who will play Scotland off against any other of the smaller nation states around the world to do so.

 

Individual companies have annual turnovers many times larger than a lot of smaller countries, labour can be hired anywhere in the world, money crosses borders in nano-seconds, decisions are made thousands of miles from where they will impact. The EU is in part a way to counter these influences - not to prevent them but to gain sufficient economic mass to be able to say "boo" to the multi-nationals. That is in part why we (the UK) joined. I really don't think this is a good time to start a "small nation state" business venture, unless someone has designs on growing that state into a larger one - or selling it to someone else!

 

So, back to the first questions, who will gain, and what will they gain?

[Tracker]

Brian Kirby - 2012-10-17 10:32 PM

So, back to the first questions, who will gain, and what will they gain?

 

All joking aside I have often wondered the same thing and the only conclusion I arrive at is that it is purely an ego trip for the SNP in general and Scotland's very own Walter Mitty, Alex Salmond, with everyone else just hoping that the short term gravy train will stop at their trough long enough for them to fill both their wallets and their egos.

 

But I could be wrong?

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2012-10-17 10:32 PM

 

IMO, they will end up working long hours for low pay, because anything usefully productive in Scotland will be owned by non-Scots, who will dictate the employment terms to benefit their profits, and who will play Scotland off against any other of the smaller nation states around the world to do so.

 

Individual companies have annual turnovers many times larger than a lot of smaller countries, labour can be hired anywhere in the world, money crosses borders in nano-seconds, decisions are made thousands of miles from where they will impact. The EU is in part a way to counter these influences - not to prevent them but to gain sufficient economic mass to be able to say "boo" to the multi-nationals.

 

I see it differently Brian ;-)............as a small state your able to dictate to big businesses how they operate in your country, and the EU has made it even easier for big business to operate behind smoke and mirrors *-)......................

 

As we are frequently see displayed by the banks or "Starbucks" they have no morals >:-(

[nowtelse2do]

Brian Kirby - 2012-10-17 10:32 PM

 

What puzzles me is who will gain, and what will they gain, compared to the status quo? Does anyone know? Is anyone saying?

 

I just can't see any significant benefit either way, but a large amount of disbenefit both sides of the border if Scotland splits away.

 

Do they think they can really stay integral within the UK, with the same currency, open borders, and little to no effective defence capability, just on the strength of oil and gas, a bit of under-developed hydro power, and a few distilleries and salmon farms?

 

 

So, back to the first questions, who will gain, and what will they gain?

 

I can't see what they will gain in comparison to what they already have. Oil & Gas is in a steady decline unless they can find some more, If they want to be in the EU then that means they have to join the euro, that alone should put them off because they would have to do what Germany says.

 

This is just an ego trip for a few wealthy people who will get richer and don't give a toss about Scotland, only themselves.

 

Alex Salmond & Nicola Sturgeon both sound a bit fishy to me.

 

Dave

[pepe63xnotuse]

nowtelse2do - 2012-10-18 11:04 AM

 

...This is just an ego trip for a few wealthy people who will get richer and don't give a toss about Scotland, only themselves.

 

Alex Salmond & Nicola Sturgeon both sound a bit fishy to me.

 

Dave

 

What?..you mean they're not a proper Scot,like Sean connery...? (lol)

 

..who lives where now?..Bahamas?...LA?..(... the lucky bar steward..... (lol) )

 

 

[Dave225]

malc d - 2012-10-17 8:38 PM

 

Question for Dave 225.

 

 

Will our queen still be able to use Balmoral ?

 

Or will she have to buy a time share to book two weeks there over Xmas ?

 

 

 

 

 

(This independence business is sure going to get complicated ).

 

 

:-|

 

Balmoral is basically a private residence and estate bought by Queen Victoria I think. Therefore unless we decided to 'confiscate' it she remains the owner. However all the security costs etc would no longer be paid by the Aberdeenshire Council tax payers but by herself or by England. However, as 'big Eck' wants her to remain as head of state then presumably we pay as we do now. Similar questions could arise over her use of Holyrood, which is State property, but again if we keep her as head of state then we pay.

 

The only slight kicker is that while most Scots are happy to keep the Queen, far fewer fancy Charlie waddling around in a kilt. Now if he was to abdicate for Wee Willie, then things could change yet again.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Unfortunately,I can see Alex's "Independence" lark being more akin to when a teen',"threatens" to leave home and "take all his stuff with him"(in this case his oil! *-) )..but then still expects to come back for a decent meal and to get his washing done...and maybe a few quid when things get tough... (lol)

 

Although I can't see either party benefitting ,surely IF it's going to be done,then it needs to be all or nothing?(...own currency,borders,defence,health system etc etc...) :-S

 

 

 

 

[Dave225]

nowtelse2do - 2012-10-18 11:04 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-10-17 10:32 PM

 

What puzzles me is who will gain, and what will they gain, compared to the status quo? Does anyone know? Is anyone saying?

 

I just can't see any significant benefit either way, but a large amount of disbenefit both sides of the border if Scotland splits away.

 

Do they think they can really stay integral within the UK, with the same currency, open borders, and little to no effective defence capability, just on the strength of oil and gas, a bit of under-developed hydro power, and a few distilleries and salmon farms?

 

 

So, back to the first questions, who will gain, and what will they gain?

 

I can't see what they will gain in comparison to what they already have. Oil & Gas is in a steady decline unless they can find some more, If they want to be in the EU then that means they have to join the euro, that alone should put them off because they would have to do what Germany says.

 

This is just an ego trip for a few wealthy people who will get richer and don't give a toss about Scotland, only themselves.

 

Alex Salmond & Nicola Sturgeon both sound a bit fishy to me.

 

Dave

 

These are all questions I for one do have answers to, as I am not privy to the information. I assume, ok fervently hope, that much of that will be made available prior to 2014.

 

My guesses are:

 

There will not be any significant change at least in the short term, by which I mean my lifetime. In the longer term world events will dictate what happens as with all countries.

 

What the SNP hope to gain is control over the destinies of Scots, and English living within the borders as they feel, rightly or wrongly, that they can do a far better job than Westminster has done over the years. Whether that is true or not I cannot say, but that is what they believe. What i think kicked this off was the discovery of North Sea oil in the early 70's and the realisation that the UK government was determined to just siphon it all off to their own dictats and we in Scotland received merely a very small share, which is totally different from what any sovereign nation would expect. That led to the 1st Referendum in 1978 which resulted in a yes majority but then London claimed it was not a big enough majority so declared it a no result. That p....d off a lot of people up here and then of course we had the Thatcher years which exacerbated feelings, even although there was nothing really different to what happened in parts of England. So the seeds of discourse were sown and over the years have festered. Devolution was the breakthrough as it allowed the SNP to suddenly become a major player and of course now have the support of the majority of Scots. However, as I have stated again and again most Scots do not want independence, merely a better deal.

 

Brian has mentioned hydro electric as a minor affair but again when this was started in the 60's there was enough electricity generated to keep Scotland oil and gas free but....again London dictated it all had to be given to the national grid and was spread around the whole country so we ended up paying twice in effect. Further developments in this area have generated newer supplies of electricity and again if these were under our total control, then we would be better off. We do have other technologies although i fully accept that Glasgow is no longer 'the powerhouse of the Empire' . Aberdeen is probably the 2nd most important place in the world for oil and gas technology, not just exploration and this is a major exporter through the world. We have computer software makers up here that rival the US in products and are growing in a very competitive market. Finance is of course still a big deal here despite the failures of RBS and HBOS and employ many thousands of people. Salmon is not really a core industry but whisky certainly brings in huge revenues in tax. Tourism is still a big earner despite our horrible climate.

 

Of course there is no question that Scotland does not have problems, and some big ones atthat.. Welfare spending is far too high and many Scots still think a life on the Dole is the only way forward. Fortunately not all see it that way. Health is another area where we fall far behind England and whether we can ever resolve these is a big question. However, one could make the argument that if you are on your own you have to do something rather than sit back and let someone else do it.

 

I accept all the arguments regarding whether we would be in or out of the EU and whether we would be forced to join the Euro. However, I do believe that sooner or later the euro crisis will resolve itself either in a breakup and reformation or in total fiscal union. Bluntly there is no alternative so it will happen. In which case there could be a case to argue that being part of the 'new' EU could be beneficial for a small country. We tend to be more tolerant towards Europe than England, although at times we swear just as much. Ireland is often quoted as an example of where we would go wrong but even Ireland is slowly recovering and who knows where it may end up.

 

I apologise for going on a bit and state again that i do not have the answers but I do believe that whatever we decide to do, if the people support it, then it will work. All that being said we will never stop siding with the English against a common enemy and hopefully keep all our animosity to be expended on a football pitch, which currently you would win hands down.

 

I also still firmly believe that a referendum will give a 'no' majority unless things are shown to have changed significantly. Even the SNP are aware of this although they cannot be seen to acknowledging it. Will they try to bribe us? who knows.