Guest Peter James Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Mel B - 2012-11-03 10:47 PM Shortly after the interest rates went up to 14% ... yes 14%! How the heck we managed to kept the place I don't know but we did......... At the risk of stating the obvious, with house prices lower, the debt and repayments would have been smaller. In any case 14% didn't last long did it. A relative of mine recently completed her degree, and was reduced to doing an unpaid internship for an MP. She found the most difficult people to please with were the pensioners. If she could impoverish the working classes to living on bread and water and living in tents so that pensioners could have another increase, some would say thats no more than we deserve :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 CliveH - 2012-11-03 8:47 AM I agree with most of what Brian says here - and before - my only point re Spain is that whatever the reason why Spanish property prices fell - it has not been a panacea for those wanting to get on the housing ladder. . It has for many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 donna miller - 2012-11-04 12:07 PM pelmetman - 2012-11-04 11:48 AM Mind you Donna ;-)....................The fact that your likely to end up in a drug ridden area, with dealers as neighbours is probably down to the caring attitude of our judiciary :D Care in the community they call it (lol) (lol)................... I'd rather a drug dealing neighbour though, than a psychopath 8-) Ah, but what if they were psychopathic drug dealers? :-D Well I guess I'd really lucked out 8-).............................and ended up in Uddersfield :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Mel B - 2012-11-03 10:47 PM..........................For those who genuinely 'work' towards getting a home by saving and being sensible with what they can realistically afford I have a lot of respect, but for the others who appear to be in the majority who fritter away their earnings but still are of the 'gimme, gimme, gimme' attitude ... not a chance! Been reading the Daily mail again, Mel! :-D I'd love to see your evidence for these wild generalisations. There are many who want homes and can't afford them, and have to rent at very high rents as they have no realistic alternative. Those you cite, who spend their incomes on things other than mortgages, and saving for deposits, may simply have decided that is what they prefer doing, and don't want to buy. Apart from the very high cost of rents, that approach has many merits. It allows considerable flexibility with minimal complication, so folk can move pretty much at will for jobs, schools or WHY. I gather it is a common strategy in Germany, where rents are apparently more reasonable in relationship to salaries. Once the family and the careers are reasonably settled, only then do they consider buying. A friend in France, who ran his own business, rented the whole of his working life, and only bought his own place when he retired. He was able to do that because of the capital and investments he accumulated while renting. Of course things were tighter in the past, and 15% mortgages were very difficult to fund, but that was then. I don't think the vast majority of those who want to buy and can't match your rather vicious caricature. They look at their salaries, and they look at their rents, and they conclude that what is left after normal living costs are deducted won't get them a deposit in years. They simply resign themselves to that as a fact of life, and get on with living as best they can, with what they can afford. The range is very wide, with the average price over £400,000 in London, £280,000 in the south east excluding London, and about £150,000 in Yorks and Humberside. So, even in your neck of the woods a couple would need, on average, savings of £15,000 just for the deposit. How realistic is that for people, possibly with student debt (which most of us never had), and on starter salaries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-11-04 1:52 PM There are many who want homes and can't afford them, and have to rent at very high rents as they have no realistic alternative. Those you cite, who spend their incomes on things other than mortgages, and saving for deposits, may simply have decided that is what they prefer doing, and don't want to buy. Apart from the very high cost of rents, that approach has many merits. It allows considerable flexibility with minimal complication, so folk can move pretty much at will for jobs, schools or WHY. That's a very valid point Brian, about 4 years ago, there was a report published by the Welsh government that over a typical 25 mortgage term, it was actually cheaper to rent than buy. Bear in mind though that this only applied to the valleys areas and not country wide. With the instability in the employment market, along with a drastic decline in manufacturing jobs in South Wales, the commitment of a 25 year mortgage was not and is still not a desireable proposition. We moved and took on a new mortgage last year, but because we had only been employed by our current employer for 9 months (we sold the business to them in 2010) we could not get mortgage payment protection, not an issue at the time as we were both on a good salary with middle and senior management positions, however, 10 weeks ago the company was put into liquidation and both of us were put out of work. We are lucky that we have income from 2 other properties we own and enough in redundancy and savings to see us through. 100s, if not 1000s of people are not that lucky, which is why rental is a more attractive solution, 2 of the supervisors rented their homes, they now get that rent (or a proportion of it) paid, we get nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 If you really want something and can't afford it then you must be prepared to sacrifice a style of living that you have had or been accustomed to. If you don't do that, then you don't really want that something. I wanted the best life that was possible within our means. That meant starting at the bottom rung just like many of you unless you have been fortunate enough to have had a privileged life. I still maintain that lots (not a few) young couples will not set their sights lower because of an image problem. Like Brian says, outside of London and the South East areas, averages are lower, and maybe the average in the Hull area is about £150000k, so what would be the problem getting a house that is lower than that average, they are there, and a couple have to start somewhere. Brian please don't think I'm getting at you, I'm not, but you also brought up a price of £350,000k for a 3 bedroom semi detached in your area in an earlier post of yours. I'm only saying this as a price comparison and nothing else. If anyone wants a price comparison then look at a area near to where I live, just Google :- Eley Long Estate Agent, go to property search, it will give you a choice of towns, tick Bacup then put in a price range of £25000k - £50000k. Now there are some crap house's in that range but about 6 or 7 are in a reasonable area and well worth the price (no huge deposit and you can get a 10yr mortgage) Now look in the £150,000k - £300,000k range ( we throw the rain a wind in for nothing ;-) The price between £50000k and £150,000k is what couples want to start at and will not set there sights to the lower range, and then think the world is against them. Donna, you must live in an affluent area, average wages around here are below £20,000k, not much work unless you take minimum wage job, but even that is about £240 a week, but it's easier to get money off the state now than to go and try to earn more. I agree with you about it being cheaper to rent than pay a mortgage over 25 yrs but at least with buying you got something back and in a lot of cases (me included) did rather well because we were able to put more down and get a smaller mortgage. I have just sold a house, the buyer put 10% deposit down and got a 10yr mortgage. He thinks that is all he will need, I'm no so sure but what he has done is, coming off that bottom rung and now progressed a little up the ladder. He is doing what we and many of you have done over time and few house moves, hopefully he will get what he is ultimately striving for. Peter, 14% didn't last long like you say, it went up to nearly 17% but we did get tax relief and I think that 's how we were able to manage. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I agree that many youngsters are not prepared to start at the bottom *-)................I have just looked on Rightmove and within 10 miles of us there is a one bedroom flat for 8k........and at the other end of the scale there's a country estate for 12 million ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 pelmetman - 2012-11-04 7:55 PM I agree that many youngsters are not prepared to start at the bottom *-)................I have just looked on Rightmove and within 10 miles of us there is a one bedroom flat for 8k........and at the other end of the scale there's a country estate for 12 million ;-) Which is your's? :D :D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 nowtelse2do - 2012-11-04 8:06 PM pelmetman - 2012-11-04 7:55 PM I agree that many youngsters are not prepared to start at the bottom *-)................I have just looked on Rightmove and within 10 miles of us there is a one bedroom flat for 8k........and at the other end of the scale there's a country estate for 12 million ;-) Which is your's? :D :D Dave The one in the middle ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 nowtelse2do - 2012-11-04 7:42 PM Donna, you must live in an affluent area, average wages around here are below £20,000k, not much work unless you take minimum wage job, but even that is about £240 a week, but it's easier to get money off the state now than to go and try to earn more. I agree with you about it being cheaper to rent than pay a mortgage over 25 yrs but at least with buying you got something back and in a lot of cases (me included) did rather well because we were able to put more down and get a smaller mortgage. Dave Sorry Dave, I took the average wage as being National (according to several reports),but it certainly is not reflective of the average wage where I live. Google Blaenau Gwent and especially Ebbw Vale, and you will find it is so far from affluent that we don't even use that word anymore. Blaenau gwent is one of the poorest counties in Wales and yet we still have the highest council tax rates. Which in essence strengthens my arguement, you can't get much of a mortgage on minimum wage, even if both of you work, no matter how much you sacrifice, save, or change your lifestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 We live in the same type of area Donna regarding wages, so effluent income may have been a better word to use. ;-) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I suspect this could run and run as there are obviously many differing points of view, and dare I say, all to a degree have merit. The main reason that buying a house at the moment is so difficult is that the banks are in such a great mess and will not lend to anyone. That is nothing to do with affordability or otherwise of houses. I also accept that many in the past decade or so have used houses as an investment vehicle whereas many of us used it merely as a place to live. As Brian has quoted in his own example he has made a huge paper profit but this will only be realised if he sells, and then of course if he wishes to stay in the same area is looking at a similar sum to buy again. Plus once he gets the new place up to his standard, or his wife's, then he finds all the profit has disappeared. He may also decide as some have done to sell up and buy in a much cheaper part of the country and live as a Lord over the natives. Many English arrived up here from the south of England with a wodge in hand, and pushed prices up for everyone. We called them 'white settlers' and now ironically they will get to vote on independence. It is a funny old world. Some who went to Spain did just that for many years but have now found that things are not quite so rosy. Many in the past decades bought houses and sold within a year or so to make a fast profit and again dare I say it, the south east has seen a large part of this because prices shot up so rapidly compared with anywhere else. The price rise was all due to demand due to population growth. What i do think does annoy me is the belief in some quarters that anyone who bought a house must be rolling in it and had it 'easy street' all the way and should be penalised for it in later life. Even some in our so called governing Parties think pensioners should be forced to move out of the homes they have bought and paid for, so younger families can get them at reduced prices. The argument is they do not need such large homes in old age, which is possibly true but 'forced' removal should never be the way forward. A house is just bricks and mortar but a home is something else. It has memories and things that represent a major part of your life and cannot be just discarded to suit a political whim. Now of course they force your family to sell it anyway to pay for Care Home fees so maybe the young should be thankful they cannot buy a house as they will not have it 'confiscated' in later life, and plus get the Care Home fees paid by the State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Damn well said Dave. Well said indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Dave225 - 2012-11-04 9:17 PM The main reason that buying a house at the moment is so difficult is that the banks are in such a great mess and will not lend to anyone. That is nothing to do with affordability or otherwise of houses. Are you still trying to say that high house prices is not making it difficult for first time buyers *-) Dave225 - 2012-11-04 9:17 PM The price rise was all due to demand due to population growth. So nothing to do with restricting the supply through planning constraints then *-) Dave225 - 2012-11-04 9:17 PM. Even some in our so called governing Parties think pensioners should be forced to move out of the homes they have bought and paid for, so younger families can get them at reduced prices. Who is saying that? Dave225 - 2012-11-04 9:17 PM. 'forced' removal should never be the way forward. again, who is saying that? The thing is Dave, there is no such thing as free care homes. Somebody has got to pay for them. In Britain, everyone pays tax. Even the guy sleeping in a cardboard box on the street pays tax - VAT on take away food. Many taxpayers will never get to own their own home. Is it right that very poor taxpayers should be forced to pay for someone else's care so their relatives, who may already be very wealthy, can inherit a property they have not earned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Back to the OP... "Out of recession ?"...........................Local news tonight ......over a thousand jobs loses announced in the last month *-) Statistics mean b*gger all *-).............We'll bumping along the bottom for years ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Peter James - 2012-11-05 6:00 PM Dave225 - 2012-11-04 9:17 PM The main reason that buying a house at the moment is so difficult is that the banks are in such a great mess and will not lend to anyone. That is nothing to do with affordability or otherwise of houses. Are you still trying to say that high house prices is not making it difficult for first time buyers *-) Dave225 - 2012-11-04 9:17 PM The price rise was all due to demand due to population growth. So nothing to do with restricting the supply through planning constraints then *-) Dave225 - 2012-11-04 9:17 PM. Even some in our so called governing Parties think pensioners should be forced to move out of the homes they have bought and paid for, so younger families can get them at reduced prices. Who is saying that? Dave225 - 2012-11-04 9:17 PM. 'forced' removal should never be the way forward. again, who is saying that? The thing is Dave, there is no such thing as free care homes. Somebody has got to pay for them. In Britain, everyone pays tax. Even the guy sleeping in a cardboard box on the street pays tax - VAT on take away food. Many taxpayers will never get to own their own home. Is it right that very poor taxpayers should be forced to pay for someone else's care so their relatives, who may already be very wealthy, can inherit a property they have not earned? The Liberals spouted this nonsense a while back as they felt that everyone, apart from themselves, should hand over everything so that they (the Liberals) could re distribute it as they felt appropriate. I agree everyone pays tax and evidently according to the official figures the top 10% pay 60% of the total tax take. I do not know if it is true, but assume so. Does not make much difference to those down the food chain who have to pay whatever is decided. But.. all do pay tax according to their circumstances. Home owners have paid again for the house, and not required the Council to provide them with one, so saving the system. If you wish to use the argument regarding home ownership as a perk, then presumably you will state that anyone who has an expensive car(s), or goes on more than 1 holiday per year, or has a wardrobe full of designer clothes should also pay again even if they have a Council house. What has happened is that if you save the money, you are penalised, if you splurge it, you are not. I also fully agree there are no free Care Homes, I just wish you could persuade the English media that that is the case and not keep bleating about how in Scotland we get it all given to us, which is a total fallacy. In tonight's evening paper in Edinburgh they have stated the average cost of a Care Home in Edinburgh is £789 per week per person. That is the average so God knows the top costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Dave225 - 2012-11-05 8:04 PM I agree everyone pays tax and evidently according to the official figures the top 10% pay 60% of the total tax take. I do not know if it is true. If they are pretending the only tax we pay is income tax, that percentage sounds about right to me. But income tax is only the tip of the iceberg ()link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/9643998/Our-tax-system-is-a-chain-around-the-economys-ankles.html ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Peter James - 2012-11-05 9:15 PM Dave225 - 2012-11-05 8:04 PM I agree everyone pays tax and evidently according to the official figures the top 10% pay 60% of the total tax take. I do not know if it is true. If they are pretending the only tax we pay is income tax, that percentage sounds about right to me. But income tax is only the tip of the iceberg ()link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/9643998/Our-tax-system-is-a-chain-around-the-economys-ankles.html ) Just one little snippet from your link..............and just part of the reason why I'm so glad i don't employ staff anymore ;-) The horrific anti-small business bias remains: one survey found that firms with up to four staff spent £288 per employee per year on tax-related paperwork, against £5 per employee for multinationals employing more than 5,000 people. Small firms devote up to 36 hours a month on tax-related matters, according to the Forum of Private Business. Sod that........I'd rather retire and clear off in the camper :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 pelmetman - 2012-11-05 9:22 PM Peter James - 2012-11-05 9:15 PM Dave225 - 2012-11-05 8:04 PM I agree everyone pays tax and evidently according to the official figures the top 10% pay 60% of the total tax take. I do not know if it is true. If they are pretending the only tax we pay is income tax, that percentage sounds about right to me. But income tax is only the tip of the iceberg ()link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/9643998/Our-tax-system-is-a-chain-around-the-economys-ankles.html ) Just one little snippet from your link..............and just part of the reason why I'm so glad i don't employ staff anymore ;-) The horrific anti-small business bias remains: one survey found that firms with up to four staff spent £288 per employee per year on tax-related paperwork, against £5 per employee for multinationals employing more than 5,000 people. Small firms devote up to 36 hours a month on tax-related matters, according to the Forum of Private Business. Sod that........I'd rather retire and clear off in the camper :D It gets worse, because large businesses can set up a head office in parasitic states like the IOM or Jersey / wherever, and divert all their profits there, where they are able to keep their tax rate very low. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/taxman-admits-government-powerless-to-force-multinationals-to-declare-profits-8282771.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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