Help please, trying to re-register a UK motorhome in France

[betsy]

Hello All,

I have a Brit mate who lives in France. He has recently turned 70 and, despite taking and passing a medical, his new licence limits him to 3,500kg! A mutual friend of ours is selling his UK registered LHD Burstner motorhome which, when he bought it new not long ago, was plated and UK registered at 3,500. The ALKO chassis, I understand, allows up to 4,000kg.

Long story short, my pal in France has just been to his local French Govt office to ask about registering the 'van and was told that because it says 4,000 (and despite the fact that is is registered at 3,500) he is not entitled to drive it!

By co-incidence, my last 'van (a LHD Hymer 584 that I bought in Germany and re-registered in the UK without any problems also had a 4,000 ALKO chassis but had been re-plated at 3,500) was later sold to another Brit living in France and I know that, initially, he too was having trouble re-registering it there. Sadly whilst I recall they lived in Challon, near Niort, I have lost their contact details.

 

Whilst the Burstner's owner is now getting in touch with the factory to see if they can assist, can I ask if any reader can help?

 

Also can any reader give us the details of the UK company(s) that re-plate 'vans in the hope that they might be able to throw some light on the subject.

 

As usual, grateful for any help

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Dont you just love the french.....Move?

 

SVTech

 

http://www.svtech.co.uk/motorhomes.html

[Patricia]

Just a thought but can he not change his licence to a French one which I believe means he can keep his entitlement to drive heavier vehicles?

[BGD]

Two thoughts - use it in France but keep it on UK plates, registered to an "accommodation" address in the UK; or transfer it to Spanish or Andorra plates but use it in France maybe?

[Derek Uzzell]

Patricia - 2012-11-15 11:59 AM

 

Just a thought but can he not change his licence to a French one which I believe means he can keep his entitlement to drive heavier vehicles?

 

As I understand the original posting, betsy's "Brit mate" already has a French driving licence. If that were not so, and a UK licence were involved (and having passed a medical), he would not be restricted to driving 3500kg-maximum vehicles.

 

As was touched on in another forum thread, French drivers who passed a car driving test prior to 1975 have 'grandfather rights' to drive over-3500kg motorhomes on a 'B' licence entitlement. Questions have been asked in French motorhome magazines about uprating 3500kg motorcaravans above that weight to gain more payload, and the advice has been that it's not permissible unless there's an identical model available with a higher weight chassis (or, presumably, if the 3500kg motorhome was originally available with different weight options). What was very apparent was that the type of upwards replating allowed in the UK (eg. fitting heavier-duty tyres, stronger springs, etc.) would not be acceptable in France.

 

I believe something similar will apply in the reverse direction. That, if a motorhome was marketed originally at, say, 4000kg chassis-weight and subsequently 'down-plated' by the owner to 3500kg, it will still be considered a 4000kg vehicle by the French authorities. If the same vehicle (with a 4000kg chassis capability) had originally been marketed at 3500kg with the 'down-plating' carried out by the motorhome manufacturer at the conversion stage, then it should be accepted as 3500kg in France.

 

If Burstner built the LHD motorhome mentioned at 4000kg and it was then registered in the UK at 3500kg, I believe that won't make it a 3500kg motorhome as far as French regulations are concerned. What would need to be explored is whether it's practicable to down-plate the vehicle to 3500kg within the French regulatory system. Down-plating motorhomes is not something French drivers would normally seek to do, so getting advice about it may prove difficult.

 

 

[JamesFrance]

Yes I posted about this on the other thread. Here is a Google translation of the part of the linked page which gives this information officially:

 

If the GVWR is exceeded, an E license (B) must be obtained. An exception to this rule is made for the B license issued before January 20, 1975 which allows to drive a motorhome over 3.5 tonnes provided that the holder has been adding code 79 on his license Prefecture place of residence (it should check with the prefectural services for the procedure to follow).

 

However it also says:

 

Are excluded from this derogation: people whose driving license obtained before January 20, 1975 has been annulled or canceled after that date and persons holding a driving license after exchanging a foreign license or permit military conversion that occurred after January 20, 1975.

 

Which may indicate that if the license was exchanged after 1975 it would not be valid, although that makes no sense so is probably meaning that the original foreign license had to be obtained before then.

 

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F2827.xhtml

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

JamesFrance - 2012-11-15 3:45 PM...................Which may indicate that if the license was exchanged after 1975 it would not be valid, although that makes no sense so is probably meaning that the original foreign license had to be obtained before then.

 

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F2827.xhtml

 

 

On the first point above, reading the original French, I'm pretty sure it actually says that if either a foreign driving licence, or a military driving licence, (not specifically stated, but by implication, actually gained before 20/1/75) was converted to a regular French Permis B after 20/1/75, the derogation does not apply. So, he will lose his grandfather rights, meaning the code 79 cannot be added to the new French licence. He will be limited to 3,500kg PTAC (MAM).

 

On the original post, I was intrigued by the following: "Long story short, my pal in France has just been to his local French Govt office to ask about registering the 'van and was told that because it says 4,000 (and despite the fact that is is registered at 3,500) he is not entitled to drive it!"

 

To be re-plated, the vehicle must carry (even in the UK) an actual, authentic, plate giving its new MAM. If all he has done is get the registration document changed to read 3,500kg, but not attached new plates over the originals that show 3,500kg, his vehicle remains technically a 4,000kg vehicle, registered wrongly as 3,500kg. It is the plate on the vehicle that rules.

 

I'm assuming this is what is meant by "it (presumably the vehicle plate) says 4,000kg". I think what he needs to get and rivet/stick on, are authentic replacement plates in substitution for all of those existing.

 

The (presumably) Fiat plate will, I think, have an AlKo plate riveted beside it, showing the 4,000kg limit with a revised (higher that the original Fiat plate) rear axle limit. To satisfy all inspections the new plate should probably come from AlKo, and show 3,500kg and the rear axle limit. If the Fiat plate shows over 3,500kg it too will need to be replaced with one showing 3,500kg plus the original axle weights. There may, in addition, be a Burstner "plate", stuck near the habitation door. I suspect that, too, will need to show 3,500kg.

 

He will need to enquire exactly what the French departmental licencing authority needs to see to be satisfied, and follow that scrupulously. Their fear will be that, in the absence of clear, unambiguous, evidence that the vehicle is plated at 3,500kg - as opposed to having been registered (possibly in error) as 3,500kg - he will in fact be driving 4,000kg on a licence that only entitles him to drive 3,500kg. Were he subsequently to have an accident, and his licence did not "match" his vehicle, his insurance might also be invalidated, as well as leaving him liable to prosecution.

 

It is possible that the CoC may also need amendment. His best point of departure will probably be the French equivalent of VOSA, that I only know colloquially as "Les Mines", though I believe it has in any case now changed its name. Down-plated motorhomes are commonly sold in France, though such down-plating was commonly carried out by the manufacturer as a way around the restriction to 3,500kg PTAC for holders of the Permis B. It therefore seems logical that a reduction in PTAC should be able to be legally achieved, though I somehow doubt that plating-up would be accepted.

[eljay]

Betsy,

 

If you or your Brit mate would like to pm me then I can relate my experiences of both registering a UK reg Burstner in France and swapping a UK license to a French one with heavy vehicle entitlement.

 

In short, Burstner weren't very helpful in providing a certificate of conformity (300€) taking nearly 3 months to provide, but our local prefecture were helpful in giving me the information necessary to change the license.

 

I am in the UK at time of writing, but will be "incommunicado" after tomorrow until the middle of next week.

 

J

[Derek Uzzell]

The critical thing (as I suggested earlier) will be whether the "mutual friend's" UK-registered LHD Burstner motorhome was originally manufactured by Burstner as a 4000kg maximum-overall-weight vehicle or a 3500kg one.

 

As eljay mentions, registering a UK-registered motorhome in France will require providing the French authorities with a French-language Certificate of Conformity (CoC) that will confirm that the vehicle fully complies with French technical standards.

 

The CoC will relate specifically to the motorhome being registered and will state the maximum-overall-weight at which it was manufactured. A vehicle's maximum-overall-weight in France is referred to as PTAC (Poids Total Autorisé en Charge) and, if the PTAC figure on this Burstner motorhome's CoC is over 3500kg, it will be registered in France in the PL (Poids Lourd) class, rather than the VL (Véhicule Léger) class that relates to vehicles with a PTAC up to 3500kg.

 

VLs (which most motorhomes in France are classed as) can be driven on an ordinary 'B' car driving licence entitlement, but a PL vehicle cannot. In the UK most owners of motorhomes with a maximum-overall-weight above 3500kg have a 'C1' entitlement (usually obtained on a 'grandfather' basis) allowing them to drive vehicles up to 7500kg maximum-overall-weight, but this isn't so in France.

 

The CoC is pivotal when registering an 'imported' vehicle in France and, if the UK-registered LHD Burstner's CoC states that the motorhome has a PTAC over 3500kg, then it's going to be classed as a 'heavy' (PL) and can't then be driven legally on a basic 'B' driving licence.

 

Most motorhomes marketed in France are registered there as VLs, whereas, in the UK, exactly the same models may be registered in our Private/HGV (over-3500kg) class to provide a realistic payload. But the CoCs of the French-sold motorhomes will show a PTAC no higher than 3500kg, whereas the UK-sold vehicles' CoCs will show a maximum-overall-weight above 3500kg. I've no idea if it's bureaucratically possible to 'down-plate' a French-registered PL vehicle to turn it into a VL (as can be done fairly easily in the UK), but I'd be very wary of assuming that it can be done.

 

If betsy's French-resident pal is restricted to a basic 'B' driving licence, the wisest course of action might be to accept that restriction and (assuming the LHD motorhome was manufactured by Burstner with an over-3500kg mximum-overall-weight) not to risk ending up with a vehicle he's not legally entitled to drive.

[betsy]

Have just quickly opened up this thread to check if there had been any responses before I have to go out.

I am (as has usually been the case) gobsmacked by all the truly useful help that has been put forward. Thank you all very, very much.

Both my Brit mate who is living in France (who only relatively recently exchanged his UK licence for a French one and will now fully understand why he lost his entitlement to drive over 3,500kg) and my other pal who has the Burstner that is involved in this execise are also monitoring this thread - on behalf of them, thank you all again.

Hope to have some time over the weekend to study all that has been said.

[Brian Kirby]

The logical place to start, I think, for getting the vehicle down plated, would be Burstner. Some of their vans sold in France were on the heavier chassis, but were originally plated by Burstner at 3,500kg for the reason Derek states. It should therefore, at least theoretically, be possible for Burstner to re-plate his vehicle and issue a new CoC at that weight. I'm sure that will be expensive if they will play, but probably less so than trading his van against a van already plated at 3,500kg. He could try either Burstner at Kehl in Germany, or Burstner France at Wissembourg. He could also try contacting Burstner UK, to see if they have any useful contacts who may be able to get him to the right place to start. However, he will need to carefully check what payload he has left, to be sure the resulting van will actually work for him.

[Derek Uzzell]

Returning to the original posting, I think the story is that betsy's France-resident mate (who is now limited to a 'B' driving-licence entitlement) was considering purchasing this UK-registered Burstner owned by a mutual friend of betsy and his mate. I think the current owner of the Burstner is (and will continue to be) UK resident.

 

As I understand it, what is essentially being explored is how the French authorities would treat the motorhome regarding PTAC if it were acquired by betsy's mate and imported to France. I don't think the Burstner's current owner has any intention himself of registering the motorhome in France.

[JamesFrance]

So the friend with the French license could visit the Prefecture which issued it and ask them if they can add 79 to it. If so that should solve the problem. If not the license is only valid for a motorhome up to 3500kg.

 

It may be a good idea to print the page from my link above, as the person dealing with it may not have come across it before and may just say no without checking.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-11-16 2:08 PM

 

Returning to the original posting, I think the story is that betsy's France-resident mate (who is now limited to a 'B' driving-licence entitlement) was considering purchasing this UK-registered Burstner owned by a mutual friend of betsy and his mate. I think the current owner of the Burstner is (and will continue to be) UK resident.

 

As I understand it, what is essentially being explored is how the French authorities would treat the motorhome regarding PTAC if it were acquired by betsy's mate and imported to France. I don't think the Burstner's current owner has any intention himself of registering the motorhome in France.

In which case, it seems to me, by far the simplest course will be for French mate to buy a 3,500kg van in France, and UK mate to sell the LHD Hymer in UK. As they say, the pleasure in banging your head against a wall, is when you stop! :-)

[Derek Uzzell]

JamesFrance - 2012-11-16 2:37 PM

 

So the friend with the French license could visit the Prefecture which issued it and ask them if they can add 79 to it. If so that should solve the problem. If not the license is only valid for a motorhome up to 3500kg.

 

It may be a good idea to print the page from my link above, as the person dealing with it may not have come across it before and may just say no without checking.

 

The following document

 

http://www.ffcc.fr/data/GENERAL/file/CIRCULAIRE%252010%2520JUIN%25202010.pdf

 

describes in more detail the 'Code 79' concession.

 

It's clear from the document's text that (as Brian opined earlier) if a French 'B' driving-licence has been obtained as a result of exchanging a 'foreign' licence after 20/01/1975, and the French licence provides only a 'B' entitlement, then the Code 79 concession can't be added to that licence. Betsy's most recent posting says "...my Brit mate who is living in France (who only relatively recently exchanged his UK licence for a French one and will now fully understand why he lost his entitlement to drive over 3,500kg)...

 

In the original posting betsy says "I have a Brit mate who lives in France. He has recently turned 70 and, despite taking and passing a medical, his new licence limits him to 3,500kg!", but I don't really understand what this means.

 

I'm not that conversant with the French driving-licence system, but I thought it did not require French motorists to undergo a medical at age 70. In the UK, at age 70, to retain a 'C1' driving-licence entitlement (vehicle up to 7500kg) a medical is needed. If the medical is passed, the motorist will continue to have the 'C1' entitlement.

 

I can't decide from betsy's statement whether his mate had the 'C1' entitlement on his UK driving licence when he exchanged it for a French licence or not. If he only had the 'B' entitlement on his UK driving-licence when the latter was exchanged, then it's unavoidable that he's now stuck with a French 'B' licence.

 

There's currently no 'C1' entitlement in the French driving licence system so, even if betsy's mate had a UK 'C1' entitlement when the licence exchange took place, I'm not sure what the conversion should be. The next step up from 'B' in the French entitlement system is 'C' which allows driving of juggernaut-size trucks and may well demand age-related medical examinations. It may be that one can exchange a UK driving licence with a 'C' entitlement for a French 'C'-entitlement licence, but exchanging a UK 'C1' licence only gets you a French 'B' licence.

[JamesFrance]

Derek here is a photo of part of my French license converted from my British one as I was approaching age 70. I don't claim to understand exactly what it all means.

 

Edit: I used the snipping tool and the image is too large for the forum, but Cat C is included, I think there is a common EU list of categories now.

[Derek Uzzell]

For commonsense reasons there has been a wish to harmonise within the EU the format and scope of driving licences. There's a Wikipedia entry here

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence

 

and these French links refer:

 

http://www.ffaccc.fr/actualites-fiche/permis-de-conduire-du-nouveau-/001305

 

http://www.ffcc.fr/172/html/camping-cars/les-differentes-categories-du-permis-de-conduire.aspx

 

http://www.net-iris.fr/veille-juridique/actualite/28624/de-nouveaux-permis-de-conduire-seront-delivres-a-partir-de-2013.php

 

Motorists with 'funny' licence entitlements should not be unduly affected as long as they don't move residence to a country that has different licence regulations. Because I passed a UK car driving test before 1 January 1997, my driving licence entitlements include the C1 category that permits me to drive vehicles up to 7500kg overall weight. But French motorists are not allowed this concession. Conversely, French people who passed a French car driving test before 20 January 1975 can apply for their 'B' driving licence entitlement to be amended (Code 79), allowing them to drive a motorhome over 3500kg overall weight (with no specified weight maximum). The UK system does not include the Code 79 concession.

 

When someone moves to another country and exchanges their driving licence, such entitlement concessions will need to be resolved.

 

If a French motorcaravanner with a 10-tonne motorhome and a 'B'/Code 79 licence exchanges that licence for a UK licence, what will the replacement licence cover? If the UK replacement licence provides just a 'B' entitlement, the French motorcaravanner will no longer be entitled to drive his/her motorhome as, for a 10-tonne vehicle, a 'C' entitlement (not a 'C1') is required.

 

You haven't said what entitlements were on your UK driving licence when you exchanged it for a French one but, assuming you had a 'C1' entitlement not a 'C' entitlement, it seems that a UK 'C1' entitlement was translated to a French 'C' entitlement when you exchanged your licence. You exchanged licences before you reached 70, but I'm not sure if betsy's mate exchanged his licence before or after that age. Presumably no medical report was required in your case, which raises the question "What was betsy's mate's medical for?"

 

There are two discrete issues here. One involves exchanging a UK driving licence for a French licence; the other relates to registering in France a motorhome imported from the UK.

 

If betsy's mate should have been giving a 'C' entitlement when his licence was exchanged and he were able to have that oversight corrected, then he could drive the Burstner irrespective of its PTAC weight.

 

If the Burstner could be registered in France at 3500kg PTAC, then betsy's mate could drive it on his French 'B' licence.

 

Alternativel (assuming the scenario is as I described earlier) the Gordian Knot could be cut by following the course of action suggested by Brian in his last posting.

[vindiboy]

I understand that to register an English van in France is very difficult as there are so many things  the van has to comply to , so my guess would be that at 70 as the poster states ,he would be a lot better off  selling the van in the UK and getting a French van off the shelf so to speak, who wants hassle at 70, not me for sure.

[JamesFrance]

When we moved to France I decided not to attempt to register our then Autosleeper Exec. I was told that the problem was that the habitation door was on the wrong side so would not be allowed.

 

As the Burstner mentioned here is LHD it should not be difficult as long as Burstner can supply the proper certificate.

[Rayjsj]

JamesFrance - 2012-11-18 4:03 PM

 

When we moved to France I decided not to attempt to register our then Autosleeper Exec. I was told that the problem was that the habitation door was on the wrong side so would not be allowed.

 

 

 

 

How so, Nearly all of the french motorhomes imported into the UK have 'Hab' doors on the UK 'offside'

Surely banning UK vans fitted with 'Hab' doors on the French 'Offside' is a 'Limit to Trade' and illegal under EU law. (as it means standard UK vans cannot be imported to France ?) that has to be wrong, or else 'why are we in the EU at ALL ?? Ray

[Patricia]

I have been informed that the position of the habitation door is no longer an issue but that the gas connections remain a problem. This may only apply to older motorhomes though.

 

Many things to do with registering a vehicle in France depends upon which departement you are in. As an example, some departements insist on changing headlights completely whereas where I registered a car passed it without comment with just headlight converters. It has since sailed through four or five MOT tests (controle technique). It also sports the metalwork for an A-frame, a GB plate still in situ and odd tyres (same type but different manufacturers which the French normally dislike).

[Derek Uzzell]

Rayjsj - 2012-11-19 7:00 AM

 

JamesFrance - 2012-11-18 4:03 PM

 

When we moved to France I decided not to attempt to register our then Autosleeper Exec. I was told that the problem was that the habitation door was on the wrong side so would not be allowed.

 

How so, Nearly all of the french motorhomes imported into the UK have 'Hab' doors on the UK 'offside'

Surely banning UK vans fitted with 'Hab' doors on the French 'Offside' is a 'Limit to Trade' and illegal under EU law. (as it means standard UK vans cannot be imported to France ?) that has to be wrong, or else 'why are we in the EU at ALL ?? Ray

 

Successfully registering a motorhome in France involves complying with French vehicle homologation requirements.

 

If a particular make/model of motorhome has been commercially imported to France in the past, the motorhome's manufacturer will have jumped through all the French technical-standards hoops. If the motorhome had EWVTA even better, as a Certficate of Conformity (CoC) will have been produced by the motohome manufacturer that can be presented to the French authorities at the vehicle registration stage as proof that the vehicle meets French standards.

 

If a motorhome has no CoC and/or was never commercially imported to France, then registration there can prove challenging. There was a recent-ish letter in a French motorcaravan magazine from a Frenchman who had bought an elderly unusual motorhome outside France. The make/model had never been imported to France and a CoC could not be obtained. He asked how he should go about registering the vehicle in France and was told that it would be extremely difficult. He was advised to try to get his money back or, if that was not possible, to sell the motorhome in the country in which he had purchased it.

 

The UK is pretty laid back when it comes to motorhome imports, with the requirement for adaptations normally being restricted to headlamps, speedometer and rear fog-light. It's also the case that the UK importing regulations are clear-cut.

 

French importing requirements are more demanding and, based on on-line comments (and as Patricia highlights), may be open to local interpretation. Certainly an unmodified "UK standard" motorhome will be ineligible for registration in France, simply because its headlights dip left.

 

UK-registered motorhomes are not 'banned' from been registered in France, nor does France ban UK-built motorhomes from being registered there. However, if you own, say, an Auto-Sleepers motorhome (as JamesFrance did) that's not been commercially marketed in France and for which a CoC (probably) can't be obtained, it may well be wiser not to attempt to register it in France because of the registration process's complexity.

 

If you GOOGLE-search on "importing uk motorhome into France" and read through the entries that will be retrieved on the www.france-forum-frenchentree.com website, you'll see that it has been possible for some people to register UK-built motorhomes in France. You'll also see that doing so has caused some people a lot of hassle. As JamesFrance says, registering in France the currently UK-registered LHD Burstner motorhome referred to above should be straightforward enough. The critical issue, though, is what French vehicle class (PL or VL) it would be registered in.