New site for locations

[Guest searchforsites]

Iain Strachan - 2012-12-01 6:17 PM

 

I see that there appears to be no sites in Scotland! Why?

 

The certificated sites option shows all the cs's in Scotland

[crinklystarfish]

He's developing it, it's a concept at this stage.

[Edit] crossed with above post.

[Iain Strachan]

Your initial menu then should surely not have the one country England, but just CS.

[Iain Strachan]

Crincklystarfish doesnt stay on sites there for caravans and poor people remember!

[crinklystarfish]

Hope you are not attributing that idiotic statement to me. I'm aware it's been spouted off by a couple of posters, but it's not my view. 

I don't appreciate the implication that it might be.

[Guest searchforsites]

Re the France Passion comments...

 

The site shows the locations of FP sites, but it does also say these are members only sites.

If you want to turn up to one of the sites without being a member then that is entirely up to you. Then it's upto the site owner if they will let you stay.

 

How many of you have actually stopped at FP sites?

Did the owner ask to see your FP membership card?

 

MotorhomeFacts shows FP locations in their database

Campingcar info show FP locations in their database, in many cases not even saying they are specific FP member only sites just private aires.

 

Again I don't see the problem in giving the France Passion scheme free promotion (with a free link through to their site and not vicarious books as it was originally)

 

There are FP sites that we have been unable to find following the book and have given up and gone to a different site - what do you think the site owner would think if he knew he was loosing business because people could not find him.

 

Anyone who believes these sites are free of charge and the owners are providing the service as some sort of charity are being a bit naive. Many of the FP sites we have stopped at have cost us more than many aires and campsites (€56 for a single bottle of cognac !!!) - but without any obligation I hasten to add.

These are businesses and FP is just another route to market.

 

Amazing how no one complains about showing CS & CL's which are also member only sites

 

 

 

[snowie]

I like the idea of a guide that can be used in conjunction with a route planning map. Whether I am freely entitled to access all of that information, be it from clubs that charge an annual fee for the provision of hard-copy handbooks, or for the locations of commercial sites trawled from all manner of sources.......... well I suspect that it will become a matter to be persued by intellectual property lawyers.

 

I know for certain personally, that I would enjoy planning our trips more if all of my site choices could be showcased in this format. Maybe you could sell access to the database to the major clubs for a start.

 

As far as FP is concerned, well I think you should obtain their permission.

 

There are distinct differences between C&CC, CC main sites as formal, secure, entrance controlled sites; and the other, CL's, CS's, and FP's, which are completely different. Sending all and sundry through the gates of all sorts of sites is, in my opinion not a considerate thing to do.

 

Trouble is, I can't see you going to the bother of asking all the permissions necessary.

 

To keep such a guide current, over the indicated "territories" will cost a fortune! and who will pay? surely not a charitable undertaking?

 

regards

alan b

[crinklystarfish]

Iain Strachan - 2012-12-01 6:40 PMCrincklystarfish doesnt stay on sites there for caravans and poor people remember!

Just to clear up any potential misunderstanding, no we don't (or only very rarely) but if that's what people want to do that's up to them. The posters in recent times that seem to have incurred Mr Strachan's derision were:

Parking in France thread: 

Retread24800 - 2012-11-19 2:03 PM …Camp sites are for caravanner's and poor people with tents.

 

What do you do when you get there thread: 

Tracker - 2012-11-23 10:05 AM Motorcaravanning is not about what you do when you get there - that's for tuggers and tenters and some extuggers and ex tenters who know no better than to be stuck on the same prebooked spot all week, fortnight or month!!!...

[snowie]

Oh I do wish people would stop hijacking threads and turning them into personal digs.

 

Whilst the majority of stuff is "handbags' I do agree that some people just don't know when to stop; and it's getting very boring on here,

 

Maybe seasonal thoughts for our fellow man/woman wouldn't go amiss,

 

My best wishes to you all

 

alan b

[Iain Strachan]

Crinklyfish, that being the case please accept, an apology from me.

Cheers Iain

[crinklystarfish]

No probs, thanks.

[Derek Uzzell]

searchforsites - 2012-12-01 7:18 PM

 

...How many of you have actually stopped at FP sites?

Did the owner ask to see your FP membership card?

 

 

I've been a member of the France Passion scheme for 11 consecutive years. I've only been asked to produce my membership card once.

 

As I said earlier it's completely up to you what you do with your website, but you did ask for feedback and I believe there's a potential conflict between what you are doing regarding France Passion sites and what the 'owners' of the France Passion scheme might give you permission to do.

 

This issue could easily be resolved by you seeking authorisation from France Passion (who might be delighted to have the additional advertising your website could provide) but, if you choose not to do that I don't care. I think France Passion might be wary of you providing GPS coordinates for FP sites, but I could easily be wrong. As it would be simple to ask FP for their views and it's evident you haven't done so, I suspect you also feel that, if you asked, you'd be told "No".

[snowie]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-12-02 10:15 AM

 

searchforsites - 2012-12-01 7:18 PM

 

...How many of you have actually stopped at FP sites?

Did the owner ask to see your FP membership card?

 

 

I've been a member of the France Passion scheme for 11 consecutive years. I've only been asked to produce my membership card once.

 

As I said earlier it's completely up to you what you do with your website, but you did ask for feedback and I believe there's a potential conflict between what you are doing regarding France Passion sites and what the 'owners' of the France Passion scheme might give you permission to do.

 

.

Whether we've actually been stopped or asked for a membership card is not the issue.

 

I've never been asked for my proof of membership.

 

The difference is that I approach the owner and show them my card; I'm on their property by "invitation" having joined the scheme.

 

It may well be the case that people, lots of them also French, are exploiting the relaxed approach of many of the FP sites, and are using out of date guides, arriving late and leaving early, and I've seen that quite often.

 

Putting location information in the public domain, and presenting them as "free" sites is wrong,

 

alan b

[Rod_vw]

A great new resource which will no doubt expand in the coming months. As the site developer says it's in the 'Demo' stage so criticism is inappropriate, it should be replaced by constructive suggestions.

 

I use various sites to obtain information , each has its pros and cons. Most often I pool the information to get what I want for European touring. I even have my own database constructed with MS Access to provide locations, prices, notes from previous visits plus a reminder picture. This is accessible in MS Autoroute (except for the picture) providing lots of info whilst on the move.

 

Here are my comments about the Searchforsites offering...

 

A key to the various icons / logos on the map pages would be nice.

 

To please Nationalists the word England should be replaced by UK with a further breakdown later.

 

POI Downloads of the various categories is necessary to retain your audience as without them viewers will migrate to the sites which do provide them.

 

I personally like to be able to search by looking at a map and re-scaling down to the required area with as much topographical detail as the map will allow. However an online map whilst on the move is not very practical thus I use POIs imported into Autoroute.

 

Displaying locations in France for me would be best by named region as the French department numbers don't help my geography at all. In the UK we would be happy to use County names but would our European visitors understand that? Search criteria are very subjective so what ever you do will not please everyone.

 

In an attempt to understand the comments and maybe the objections to the 'France Passion' inclusions I make the following observations.

 

1. Maybe the use of the description 'France Passion' should be amalgamated with the 'Farm style' sites thus taking their name out of the equation. I note that the code letters ACF are used for such locations which is already used by another POI provider.

2. The 'France Passion' Logo should not be used.

3. GPS co-ordinates are as stated above a physical location on the globe so surely cannot be particular persons rights to own.

 

I think there are other site guides that list France Passion locations but do not refer to them directly by that name. Perhaps this is to avoid any conflict between publishers. After all as stated the site owners are usually only too keen to receive guests. It would be the behaviour of the guest not the method of finding the location that may cause problems!

 

I am well aware that navigation systems do not always provide the most suitable route to a location but in this day and age GPS locations are used by many other mapping systems, Autoroute, Google Map & Google Earth to name but three.

 

What ever you do will be very useful so please keep up the good work.

 

[Guest searchforsites]

 

Putting location information in the public domain, and presenting them as "free" sites is wrong,

 

alan b

 

Where does it say they are 'Free'?

 

There is obviously a lack of understanding here that just because the location is shown on a map doesn't entitle you to turn up without being a member of the required scheme (whether that be France Passion, Caravn Club, Camping and Caravan Club whatever...)

Without wishing to repeat myself, it clearly states these are member only sites

 

[snowie]

searchforsites - 2012-12-02 12:15 PM

 

 

Putting location information in the public domain, and presenting them as "free" sites is wrong,

 

alan b

 

Where does it say they are 'Free'?

 

There is obviously a lack of understanding here that just because the location is shown on a map doesn't entitle you to turn up without being a member of the required scheme (whether that be France Passion, Caravn Club, Camping and Caravan Club whatever...)

Without wishing to repeat myself, it clearly states these are member only sites

 

The existence of a location as a site "does or doesn't" entitle you to turn up?

 

I accept your correction; perhaps you could clarify the CL and CS classification as I believe that these sites are Members Only also, Caravan Club and Camping and Caravanning Club respectively.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I think that a composite mapping resource of the sort you are presenting would be very useful.

Do you intend to map the CC and C&CC club main sites also?

 

regards

alan b

[Derek Uzzell]

Rod_vw - 2012-12-02 11:28 AM

 

... GPS co-ordinates are as stated above a physical location on the globe so surely cannot be particular persons rights to own...

 

The ownership, or otherwise, of GPS coordinates is a red herring.

 

The France Passion guide-book carries an 'intellectual property' caveat. Using the FP guide-book as a data source for a website suggests that the website's developer is a member of the France Passion scheme and, as such, would be expected to comply with FP rules. GPS coordinates are not included in the FP guide-book and the FP website says why.

 

To suggest that France Passion be asked to authorise use of their logo, data in their guide-book and the addition of GPS coordinates on searchforsites's website seems like a "constructive" commnt to me, not "criticism". If France Passion say "Go ahead" that's fine or, if France Passion say "No way", searchforsites can just ignore that prohibition. But at least the issue would have been addressed.

[Rod_vw]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-12-02 3:25 PM

 

Rod_vw - 2012-12-02 11:28 AM

 

... GPS co-ordinates are as stated above a physical location on the globe so surely cannot be particular persons rights to own...

 

The ownership, or otherwise, of GPS coordinates is a red herring.

 

The France Passion guide-book carries an 'intellectual property' caveat. Using the FP guide-book as a data source for a website suggests that the website's developer is a member of the France Passion scheme and, as such, would be expected to comply with FP rules. GPS coordinates are not included in the FP guide-book and the FP website says why.

 

To suggest that France Passion be asked to authorise use of their logo, data in their guide-book and the addition of GPS coordinates on searchforsites's website seems like a "constructive" commnt to me, not "criticism". If France Passion say "Go ahead" that's fine or, if France Passion say "No way", searchforsites can just ignore that prohibition. But at least the issue would have been addressed.

 

Sorry Derek I wasn't accusing anyone in particular of criticising, I was just repeating the OPs request for comments.

 

As for the inclusion of the logo, my suggestion was just the opposite. I also point out that most of the FP sites are already indicated as POIs from other sources, just not named as such. I don't know the legal implications of the 'intellectual property' but unless the records are blatent word for word copying I suspect the accusation would not stand up.

 

Of course the other side of the coin applies, if the 'Searchforsites' owner wishes to gain approval from other organisations to include their data then so be it. Who are we to argue? It's his site after all.

 

Like I said in the beginning, just constructive comments.

 

[gwyn]

Had a look and what is there so far is very good. Put it on my favourites thanks very much

[Caddies104]

Hi

Love the site, must of took a lot of time and effort, to have the weather forecast as well is brilliant.

 

Well Done

 

Derek

[robertandjean]

Great site, well done will use along side cc-infos, i-cc etc. Really good idea to include FP sites and to include the GPS co-ords of these a real step forward. It's our view that If you intend this to be a free resource then forget all the comments re permissions, copyright etc as we feel all info on web should be free and available to all. If you intend to charge however, then do not think you should use data from sites like cc-infos as they do not charge. To be honest do not think the French web sites will worry much, but CC/CCC might!

[Retread24800]

robertandjean - 2012-12-03 2:45 PM  If you intend this to be a free resource then forget all the comments re permissions, copyright etc a

 

 

 

 

 If you intend to charge however, then do not think you should use data from sites like cc-infos as they do not charge. To be honest do not think the French web sites will worry much, but CC/CCC might!

 

Even if the site is free to access, you might be tempted to obtain an income say to defray costs by advertising/ links to merchants sites etc. this would put you in a position of competing with the sites you may have cribbed info from and thus the lawyers will become involved, an that will become expensive!!!!!

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Retread24800 - 2012-12-03 2:22 PM

robertandjean - 2012-12-03 2:45 PM  If you intend this to be a free resource then forget all the comments re permissions, copyright etc a

 

 

 

 

 If you intend to charge however, then do not think you should use data from sites like cc-infos as they do not charge. To be honest do not think the French web sites will worry much, but CC/CCC might!

 

Even if the site is free to access, you might be tempted to obtain an income say to defray costs by advertising/ links to merchants sites etc. this would put you in a position of competing with the sites you may have cribbed info from and thus the lawyers will become involved, an that will become expensive!!!!!

As all of this information is based on GPS locations that obviously cannot be a copyright issue, GPS coordinates are just that. ;-)

[Retread24800]

1footinthegrave - 2012-12-04 1:43 PM

Retread24800 - 2012-12-03 2:22 PM

robertandjean - 2012-12-03 2:45 PM  If you intend this to be a free resource then forget all the comments re permissions, copyright etc a

 

 If you intend to charge however, then do not think you should use data from sites like cc-infos as they do not charge. To be honest do not think the French web sites will worry much, but CC/CCC might!

 

Even if the site is free to access, you might be tempted to obtain an income say to defray costs by advertising/ links to merchants sites etc. this would put you in a position of competing with the sites you may have cribbed info from and thus the lawyers will become involved, an that will become expensive!!!!!

As all of this information is based on GPS locations that obviously cannot be a copyright issue, GPS coordinates are just that. ;-)

 

The actual location may not be copyright but the collection of the GPS coordinates, usually involving visiting the site/collection of the data from the site is the intellectual property of the website owner. and thus if you copy that info into your own website without having sought permission, you are leaving yourself open to piracy charges.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I shall attempt to explain the situation one last time, as I suspect the majority of people who have commented on the France Passion (FP) scheme are not (and never have been) FP members and are unfamiliar with how information on FP sites is provided.

 

Let’s digress for a moment by considering the ‘aires’ website mentioned in this earlier forum thread

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Website-of-French-Aires-with-360-degree-Panoramic-Views/29475/

 

This website appears to be ‘owned’ by a M. Matthieu LeGoupil based in Caen (which may well explain why it currently concentrates on north-west France). Evidently (from BGD’s comments on the earlier thread) acquiring the panoramic images involves someone actually visiting each location and taking the photos. As far as I’m aware, all the aires are publically accessible, so it would be extremely difficult to argue that M. LeGoupil is not entitled to use the data (information, photos, GPS coordinates, etc.) he has gathered when creating his own website.

 

Searchforsites’s approach is different.

 

At the beginning of Page 1 of this thread he says

 

“…Locations have either been collected from our tours, freely available downloads or data sets I have purchased.”

 

I don’t know what datasets he has bought, nor whether purchasing those datasets give him the right to use the information when building his website. But I do know that he has not bought a France Passion soft-copy dataset because such a thing is not marketed.

 

The France Passion scheme involves an annual subscription and, each year, a subscriber (FP member) receives a guide-book that includes maps and information relating to each FP site. This guide provides instructions on how to drive to each site but GPS coordinates for sites are not published. There can be no argument that adding GPS coordinates to those driving instructions would make life easier for FP members, but the FAQ section on the France Passion website advises that the reason GPS coordinates are not provided is to safeguard the privacy of the owners of the FP sites.

 

It’s plain from searchforsites’s 25 November 2012 3:20 PM posting that, when planning his website, he recognised that there was a possible conflict between France Passion’s policy to omit GPS coordinates in their guide-book and his intention to provide FP-site GPS coordinates on his website. He concluded that it would be OK for him to do so.

 

Searchforsites obtains information relating to FP sites either from having visited FP sites himself in the past or from “…plowing through the book and using google earth and other resources to locate the actual FP site and plot on the map”. Having an FP guide-book implies either that you are a current FP member or you’ve acquired the book some other way. In the latter instance, I suggest that you have no entitlement to use the data in the booklet: in the former case I suggest that it would, at the very least, be good manners to check with France Passion for approval.

 

It’s perfectly possible for France Passion to have changed its policy for 2013 and for FP-site GPS coordinates to be published in next year’s guide-book. However, even if that were the case, the issue remains of how much (if any) ‘right’ an FP member has to exploit the data in the FP guide-book without authorization being given by France Passion itself.

 

We aren’t talking about a small personal database here, created by an individual for his/her own use. This is a large database that is planned eventually to include all FP sites (currently around 1700) and that (presumably) will be freely available on-line or can be purchased.

 

I’d like to see GPS coordinates in the FP guide-book and, if I knew France Passion were happy with how searchforsites is displaying FP-site data on his website project, I wouldn’t be continuing to discuss this matter.

 

(I suppose that, if I really want to know what France Passion’s stance is, the simplest thing is for me to ask them.)