Payload Mk 11

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2012-12-04 7:12 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2012-12-04 7:00 PM

 

The rationale used was that a 4250kg motorhome was no less safe or difficult to drive than a 3500kg motorhome towing a 750kg unbraked trailer

 

It does seem logical that a 4250kg van would be safer, than towing the extra weight in a unbraked trailer :-S.................I ended up selling my braked box trailer as it exceeded my GTW, and replaced it with a unbraked trailer *-)............

 

Although I have had Horace's brakes completely overhauled with new cylinders ;-)

There is nothing that prevents trailers of 750kg MAM or less having brakes, it is only that they aren't legally obliged to be fitted with them.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2012-12-05 5:17 PM

 

pelmetman - 2012-12-04 7:12 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2012-12-04 7:00 PM

 

The rationale used was that a 4250kg motorhome was no less safe or difficult to drive than a 3500kg motorhome towing a 750kg unbraked trailer

 

It does seem logical that a 4250kg van would be safer, than towing the extra weight in a unbraked trailer :-S.................I ended up selling my braked box trailer as it exceeded my GTW, and replaced it with a unbraked trailer *-)............

 

Although I have had Horace's brakes completely overhauled with new cylinders ;-)

There is nothing that prevents trailers of 750kg MAM or less having brakes, it is only that they aren't legally obliged to be fitted with them.

 

Oh................but no one seems to make 750 kg trailers with brakes :-S

[crinklystarfish]

derek pringle - 2012-12-05 11:58 AM

 

crinklystarfish - 2012-12-05 9:57 AM

 

If people didn't buy 'vans with insufficient payload manufacturers wouldn't make them.

Hi,

I think this is part of the point I made in my post,that is , a lot of buyers do not know what payload they are buying when they make their purchase. Most people learn by experience/other peoples experience or simply mistakes and as we all know anything to with motorhoming is expensive so a certain amount of built in protection would be very useful, dont you agree.

cheers

derek

 

I get that yes, but to my mind it's the buyer's responsibility to do the leg work and buy something suitable for purpose. Same with Ray's point really, if nearing 70 and fearing / not wanting to go through the medical scenario why buy a 3,850kg 'van?

 

Only when dealers / manufacturers are pressed will they alter their practice. While ever customers aren't savvy, or care, then it's unlikely the manufacturer / dealer will take the lead.

 

At the end of the day it is down to the driver to stay safe / legal and it's odd to me that the issue of payload / overloading is often sought to be disowned by drivers.

 

If I get legless on whisky and then drive and crash - or get nicked - then that's down to my bad judgement and I deserve what's coming - it's not the distiller's fault.

 

 

[Archiesgrandad]

I do think that there needs to be a serious discussion about the weight problem.

I think that every van needs to have a fixed notice in the direct view of the driver indicating, preferably expressed in simple layman's language, ie "this vehicle can be driven on a standard car licence" or "this vehicle can only be driven on a heavy goods licence" and so on.

The manufacturers would have a real incentive to find and develop lighter materials and techniques with which to build their vans, because the heavier vans will become ever more difficult to sell.

Anyone seen my tin hat.

AGD

[jnp]

Just wondering is there any one of us who has been prosercuted for being over weight in a moterhome and if so would you be brave ! stupid! or other to come clean on here.Looking forward to all of the replys :-D :-D

[Tracker]

crinklystarfish - 2012-12-05 7:11 PM

it's the buyer's responsibility to do the leg work and buy something suitable for purpose. Same with Ray's point really, if nearing 70 and fearing / not wanting to go through the medical scenario why buy a 3,850kg 'van?

 

It's not quite that simple.

I reckon to be quite savvy about vans and weights having been using weighbridges for many years but I got caught out earlier this year by a van that weighed considerably more than it should due to the maker taking full advantage of the 5% allowance in unladen weight.

 

To be fair I also underestimated the weight of accessories like spare wheel and second battery and that is down to me. The dealer did offer to exchange the van for us but as we like it we are in the process of replating it up from 3500 to 3850kg. When Michelin get their finger out and supply the tyres the dealer has agreed to supply and fit 5 of them FOC and has helped towards the cost of air suspension which I fitted (easy!) SVTech will then replate for £288 inc vat and the DVLA will change the class

 

So although approaching 70 I will have an over 3500 van but due to misleading dealers and converters how many people know what to look and ask for and what can and can't be done to resolve weight issues.

 

Magazines and the major clubs could go a long way to regularly informing buyers of the pitfalls but I doubt they would want to bite the hands of the converters that feed them?

 

As has been said earlier and as I have always maintained a payload of 500 kg is enough for most people - ours should have been 450 in theory but was less than half of that in reality - so why are vans with payloads of significantly less than that being made and sold to unsuspecting buyers who, unless they follow this forum, or are wise to the ways of hidden weight, are almost certain to be overweight?

 

These people are the unwitting and unknown hidden danger not those on here who are aware of maybe being 100kg over the limit.

[rupert123]

bob b - 2012-12-05 3:41 PM

 

I rang SV Tech earlier and the exercise costs £240.00 plus VAT. My rear axle is plated at 1900kgs and when uprated will then be plated at 2000 kgs, which is the maximum I can have. All of which makes me wonder if its going to be worth it.

I'm going to visit a weighbridge and see exactly what the situation is regarding my payload allowance. If its tight I'll probably have it done.

 

Like Eddie I am suprised you are considering uprating without weighing it first. In some cases, my last van for example, the extra 100kg is well worth while, I assume you will also get 100kg on front axle. Most coachbuilds it is the rear axle were problems occure, we carried a scooter on a rack so had to run with very little water in the fresh tank, with a 100kg upgrade we could have half a tank and a few kgs spare. Panel vans have a differant weight distribution as a general rule but our Swift c/b had loads of spare on the front axle and none on the rear with scooter on board. To make matters worse all the heavy bits were at the back so upgrading became essential. We were always a couple of hundred kgs under the max payload though. Our small 530LP Sundance upgraded to 3500kgs had a payload of around 700kg.

[bob b]

I should have had it weighed a long time ago. The bulk of the storage is mainly under the double bed at the rear and I also tow a heavy motor bike, which exerts quite a weight on the towbar.

It may be that I am well within limits, but the payload thread prompted me to ask the question about uprating. Should I be too near my rear axle loading I'll get it replated now I know the procedure and cost involved.

[goldi]

Afternoon all,

 

 

My view is that at 3500 gross they are overstressed.

 

 

norm

[Tracker]

goldi - 2012-12-06 3:02 PM

 

 

My view is that at 3500 gross they are overstressed.

 

 

 

The vans or the drivers!!

 

After reading all this ongoing and incoming about what is in effect a very simple exercise a lot of owners are getting a bit stressed!

[747]

The French are introducing a lot of very severe penalties for motorists. I am not going into details but there is one that might focus everyones attention.

 

OVERLOADING: Punishable by a fine of 35,000 Euros or 5 years in Jail.

 

Have a nice day. :D

[Tracker]

747 - 2012-12-06 6:40 PM

 

The French are introducing a lot of very severe penalties for motorists. I am not going into details but there is one that might focus everyones attention.

 

OVERLOADING: Punishable by a fine of 35,000 Euros or 5 years in Jail.

 

Have a nice day. :D

 

I suddenly feel very smug for taking the trouble to bring my van within the legal weight limit !!

 

Thanks Jim - you've made my day!!

[DuxDeluxe]

Stressed - yes some (both vans and owners). Others are aware. I wonder how the proportion of stressed to aware is, though?

[goldi]

Evening all ,

 

 

80% should be.

 

 

norm

[Brian Kirby]

PCC - 2012-12-05 3:22 PM...........................People with experience may well avoid the pitfalls, but I feel sorry for the inexperienced who buy at a show without any real understanding of the issues.

 

Peter

Quite! But then, they mostly buy from that great motorhoming resource, the dealers, whose day job is to sell motorhomes to the public - so, it follows they will know all about, and explain, all of these things, as knowledgable experts, doesn't it?

 

Having recently had to explain to two well reputed dealers a) why I wanted to know the individual axle loadings of a van in its unladen (or ex works) state, b) why knowing that was important, and c) what unladen axle loadings are, I ain't so sure! Neither had a clue, struggled to separate the concept of unladen from maximum permissible, and both advised they "had never been asked for that before".

 

Didn't seem to have occurred to either that it was something they should know as a matter of course (because the manufacturers should of course tell them), and of which they should advise their clients for these £40,000 plus vehicles.

[derek pringle]

Brian Kirby - 2012-12-09 4:22 PM

 

PCC - 2012-12-05 3:22 PM...........................People with experience may well avoid the pitfalls, but I feel sorry for the inexperienced who buy at a show without any real understanding of the issues.

 

Peter

Quite! But then, they mostly buy from that great motorhoming resource, the dealers, whose day job is to sell motorhomes to the public - so, it follows they will know all about, and explain, all of these things, as knowledgable experts, doesn't it?

 

Having recently had to explain to two well reputed dealers a) why I wanted to know the individual axle loadings of a van in its unladen (or ex works) state, b) why knowing that was important, and c) what unladen axle loadings are, I ain't so sure! Neither had a clue, struggled to separate the concept of unladen from maximum permissible, and both advised they "had never been asked for that before".

 

Didn't seem to have occurred to either that it was something they should know as a matter of course (because the manufacturers should of course tell them), and of which they should advise their clients for these £40,000 plus vehicles.

 

Hi Brian,

Your point is exactly why I think there should be a statutory minimum level at manufacture.

It was a disgrace recently when the Aspire was recalled on a voluntary basis to have a free uplift in its payload. Some people on here will say it was the purchasers fault but I believe anybody buying a motorhome should have some fundamental gimmes for want of a phrase.

cheers

derek

[rupert123]

Brian Kirby - 2012-12-09 4:22 PM

 

PCC - 2012-12-05 3:22 PM...........................People with experience may well avoid the pitfalls, but I feel sorry for the inexperienced who buy at a show without any real understanding of the issues.

 

Peter

Quite! But then, they mostly buy from that great motorhoming resource, the dealers, whose day job is to sell motorhomes to the public - so, it follows they will know all about, and explain, all of these things, as knowledgable experts, doesn't it?

 

Having recently had to explain to two well reputed dealers a) why I wanted to know the individual axle loadings of a van in its unladen (or ex works) state, b) why knowing that was important, and c) what unladen axle loadings are, I ain't so sure! Neither had a clue, struggled to separate the concept of unladen from maximum permissible, and both advised they "had never been asked for that before".

 

Didn't seem to have occurred to either that it was something they should know as a matter of course (because the manufacturers should of course tell them), and of which they should advise their clients for these £40,000 plus vehicles.

This is similar to my original post on the original thread. I pointed out that most M/H salesman neither knew or cared about the payload and neither did their customers. I have never spoken to a M/H salesman who had a clue about individual axle payloads. This is not really their fault and as long as they know where to obtain the info for you does not matter much. If a salesman is selling say new vans from two makers and a choice of 30 used vans form a variety of makers why would you expect them to know every feature of every van, no one does. They will learn the facts about vans from the questions asked and if the payload thing rarely comes up they will not learn it. It is just forum users who care but how many check? OK you all do and can quote your loading to the last gram (lol) . I doubt the large majority of users do not know or care though so no good blameing salesman. Me, I weigh as I have said many times, what others do I neither know or care, their choice. As M/H accidents are so rare it would seem it does not really matter much anyway.

[Guest pelmetman]

rupert123 - 2012-12-10 2:28 PM

It is just forum users who care but how many check? OK you all do and can quote your loading to the last gram (lol) .

 

Plus or minus a 100kg depending on weighbridge accuracy :D

[Patricia]

747 - 2012-12-06 6:40 PM

 

The French are introducing a lot of very severe penalties for motorists. I am not going into details but there is one that might focus everyones attention.

 

OVERLOADING: Punishable by a fine of 35,000 Euros or 5 years in Jail.

 

Have a nice day. :D

 

Can I ask where you have seen this information please so that I can find out more details?

[Brian Kirby]

rupert123 - 2012-12-10 2:28 PM....................This is similar to my original post on the original thread. I pointed out that most M/H salesman neither knew or cared about the payload and neither did their customers. I have never spoken to a M/H salesman who had a clue about individual axle payloads. This is not really their fault and as long as they know where to obtain the info for you does not matter much. If a salesman is selling say new vans from two makers and a choice of 30 used vans form a variety of makers why would you expect them to know every feature of every van, no one does. They will learn the facts about vans from the questions asked and if the payload thing rarely comes up they will not learn it. It is just forum users who care but how many check? OK you all do and can quote your loading to the last gram (lol) . I doubt the large majority of users do not know or care though so no good blameing salesman. Me, I weigh as I have said many times, what others do I neither know or care, their choice. As M/H accidents are so rare it would seem it does not really matter much anyway.

My fault no doubt, Henry, but I was not seeking to imply they should know off the tops of their heads, merely that they should have ready access to such information. That is why I added "because the manufacturers should of course tell them".

 

Because it is a complex topic that hardly ever arises in relationship to car use, and because most new motorhomers seem to have experience of car use only, first time buyers (and even a few not so first time buyers) do need a bit of guidance at the point of sale, to make them aware.

 

Part of the problem, of course, is that the information will become incorrect as soon as any options are specified for the vehicle. However, it should be perfectly possible for manufacturers to quote maximum (base model, no options)/minimum (heaviest version with all options specified) load margins on each axle in MIRO condition. This would also draw attention to the fact that the margin is not fixed.

 

The information is on the CoC, but that is only available on delivery, which is far too late to be of use when deciding what to specify. To be able to produce the CoC the vehicles have to be weighed, so manufacturers already have all the data they need to quote these weights. I just wish they would.

 

It was not so much that the dealers could not provide the information, as the fact that they did not understand the question, so went to the manufacturer with a garbled question, and got back a garbled answer, that I then had to refer back to get near to a sensible answer. I'm not looking for sales folk with PhDs, just folk who adequately know their jobs and the characteristics of what they sell. These are expensive vehicles: I think the buyer has a right to expect at least that level of knowledge from the seller.

[rupert123]

Brian, not having a go at you here. My reply was from the 'real world' however where I accept things as they are and cannot be bothered much about changeing them. I can find out myself what i need and still make mistakes, hence buying a PVC, and tend to buy where I get offered a good deal, wether the dealer knows his stuff is of little concern. I usually know more than them anyway having looked up the specifications of the van i am looking at. Never take it back to them, unless warranty complaint and with my largely UK built vans over last six years have had hardly any of these, rely on people like Dave Newell for service and fitting stuff. I am going to buy second hand this time, first for a few years, so new warrenty does not come into it. Will make sure I have adequate payload without info from dealer, how, simple, will take a friends weight gadgets with me.

[flicka]

Maybe if a few Dealers had some motorhomes returned as "unfit for purpose" due to inadequate payloads there would be some action to ensure the sale personnel had it drummed into their memory cells.

Anyone who purchased the Elddis Aspire may have been able to get the MAM upgrade, but hardly any use if the did not have the Driving License category to be able to drive it.