silverback Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Hi all just filled the water tank after a drain down and come to turn on the taps and there is nothing coming out, the pump is whirring away and thats it,same thing happened a few weeks ago so the dealer put in a brand new pump(so it cant be that) im thinking its an air lock somewhere but i haven't got a clue on how to get rid of it..anybody got any ideas (?) cos im going away boxing day and i dont fancy washing in pans of water 8-) jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 It may be simply a pipe off, look in side tank, and check pipes onto pump ok. If you have a Truma heating system then there is a shut off valve that will automatically dump water if the temp drops below 0, so check that's closed otherwise you will dumping water as you fill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 When mine does that I fit a short length of pipe over the tap, turn on and suck, it does the trick in a couple of "sucks". H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 hallii - 2012-12-23 5:03 PM When mine does that I fit a short length of pipe over the top, turn on, and suck, it does the trick in a couple of "sucks". HIt certainly does Hallii, :$ (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Jonathan I think your Mohawk has a SHURflo pressure-sensitive water-pump. If that's the case, then sucking through a tap (that may help to clear an air-lock when a water system has a submerged pump) is unlikely to be effective. (Worth a try of course and, if the shower hand-set is removed and the shower-hose sucked through, it might be easier than tap-sucking.) Assuming that the pump is a SHURflo, as it's running but no water is coming from the taps, either water is not reaching the pump or water is passing through the pump and not reaching the taps. In the former case, this may mean there is a major air-leak at the pump itself or between the pump and the water pick-up point in the fresh-water tank, or the hose leading from the pick-up point to the pump is blocked (Mucky filter at the pick-up point? Failed non-return valve if there is one?) or (as takeaflight suggests) the pick-up hose within the tank may have become disconnected. If water is passing through the pump but not reaching the taps then, logically, it must be emerging elsewhere. Check that all drain valves are fully closed. I believe your 2011 Mohawk has a Truma B10 Ultrastore boiler - if that's so, then check that water isn't being lost through the boiler's breather-valve (on the side of the boiler near the top) and emerging from the ventilation hose that exits beneath the motorhome. As the same thing was happening before your dealer fitted a new pump, I suspect that the problem is on the inlet side of the water pump. If you can reach the pump, this theory could be checked by loosening the connection on the pump's outlet. if no (or very little) water spurts out from the loosened connection when the pump is running, then the problem is 'upstream' of the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 You say the pump is whirring, is it clicking as well or just whirring? If it's clicking as well then there is an interruption between the tank and the pump. It's not uncommon for the pump to fail time and again, I was told by Auto-Trail that the quality of the pumps from Surflo has deteriorated in the last year or so. My latest 634 has had two new pumps fitted and the previous one had to have three fitted. I always carry a spare just in case. By the way if you intend to fit one yourself and it's located under the cooker then it's advisable to carry an extra long screwdriver with you. If you haven't drained down properly then there is a possibility that the plastic filter glass could be cracked and drawing air. If water is left in the pump there could have been a plug of ice in it and when you switched it on then damage could have been caused. Sometimes if I suspect ice in the pump then I use the wifes hair dryer on it. Another thing to take into consideration is that Auto-Trail usually put a vent under the cooker which can let cold air in and freeze the pump so what I do is block it off with gaffer tape. The pumps that are more prone to freeze ups are the models with an end kitchen where it is located under the cooker over a fresh air vent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Afterthought, if you do intend to buy a spare pump just check that the pressure rating is the same as the one that was fitted from new. You could pick one up much higher, and end up with a power shower. The pressure rating will be on the packageing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizken Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 A silly point, but from experience - have you closed the tank drain, and not just run water through the tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted December 23, 2012 Author Share Posted December 23, 2012 Thanks Gents for the replies think i need to give abit of background on this, bought the van August did a few trips out and always at the end of the weekend i drain the tanks. just like i did on my old van, (dont like stagnant water in it cos it might be a few week before i use it again) but after draining cos it was summer i left the taps shut, when i filled it again all was well, so the last time say a month ago as it says in the handbook i drained and run the pump with the taps open came to fill it and nowt came out, so back to dealer fitted a new pump aweek ago, came home and all was working so i drained it down again run the pump left the taps open, filled up today for the trip and nowt again came out, so im getting paranoid!! am i doing something wrong? as Derek says its a shurflo, but its brand new!! surely it couldn't fail after 5 mins!! it only has a dump valve on the cold water side by the truma and its in the horizontal position, the drain/dump hose is shut (i let water out of it wilst filling) the chamber /filter is full, its not been freezing, i dont think it has an automatic dump on the truma, i can get to the pump its in the garage, im at a loss, will give it a good suck tomorrow 8-) and ring the dealer..but i think there on hols so..will try all suggestions and let you know tomorrow again thanks for the replies jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 These pumps are self priming, but there is a limit to how much they can 'lift' the water while pumping air, especially if there is also some water left in a pipe not far from the pump it has to push up a pipe. Its common for them not to self prime if there is any water left in pipes. The sucking as suggested is the one of two first thing to try. You could also try opening your drain valve to let the air pressure out and you may find it primes and then close the valve again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 This earlier forum thread discusses issues with a SHURflo water pump http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Airlock-/25936/ SHURflo installation/operating instructions can be found on the following link and there's advice in the TROUBLESHOOTING section on the 4th page relating to when a pump will not not prime (No discharge/Motor runs) http://www.shurflo.com/files/RV-Installation-Manuals/Classic-Series-Pumps/Premium%20Plus%20Pump%20-%20911-352_L_2088-453-144%20_444_.pdf This type of SHURflo pump has a maximum 'prime capability' of 6-foot vertically, which should be more than enough for your average motorhome. Although I said in the other thread that air would not pass through a SHURflo pump inlet-to-outlet when the pump was not running, this is evidently not the case. However, it seems to be true that a good deal of pressure is needed at the pump's inlet to force air through the pump. Me, I can't see how a human being sucking through a tap with a SHURflo pump at the other end of the water pipework will be able to generate sufficient vacuum to get air to move through the pump. Nor do I see 'air-locking' occurring in water systems that include this type of pump. However, sucking costs nothing (or it does in this instance!), so it's worth trying just in case a miracle happens. I suggest that the sucking experiment be performed with the pump's motor running - that way there would be the remote possibility that human lung-power, plus the pump's own suction, might encourage water to come through. Again it's stating the obvious that, if there's an air-leak 'downstream' of the pump (a drain-valve or the boiler's breather-valve open, or not all the taps closed except for the tap being sucked through) sucking will (literally) be a waste of breath. Make sure that all the taps (except for the sucking-through one) are closed, that the drain-valve downstream of the pump is closed, and the pump is not running. If sucking through a tap then proves to be easy , then the boiler's breather-valve is probably open. As the SHURflo pump in Jonathan's Mohawk is accessible, my first action would be (as I suggested earlier) to loosen/disconnect the water-hose at the pump's outlet and then switch the pump on. This should rapidly prove whether or not the problem is on the fresh-water tank side of the pump, or relates to the pump itself. If water is not reaching the pump, then dealer intervention may be needed. If the pump is the culprit (and for a new SHURflo pump to fail so quickly would be VERY bad luck) then another pump may be required. I believe a Mohawk has an external underslung fresh-water tank, so, if the cause of the problem lies within the tank (an air leak at a hose connection, or a hose blockage) it might be necessary to remove the tank to cure the fault. This MHF thread may be helpful http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-102673-how-to-test-my-autotrail-apache-shurflo-2095204112-pump.html I'm guessing that the water system on an Apache resembles that of a Mohawk. What JHC (the MHF member with the problem) did was 1: Remove the non-return valve (NRV) that Auto-Trail apparently fits in the water pipework between the water pump and fresh-water tank to prevent water draining back from the pump into the tank. Then to blow through the NRV's inlet to confirm that it opened properly (and, presumably, also to blow through the NRV's outlet to confirm that the valve closed). 2: Blow down the hose that supplied water from the fresh-water tank to the NRV's inlet. With water in the tank, one would expect to feel some resistance when you blew down the hose and to be able to hear water in the tank 'bubbling' from the pick-up end of the hose. (Plainly, if it proved impossible to blow air into the tank through the supply-hose, that would prevent water from being sucked up by the pump.) The root cause of JHC's problem seems to have been that the filter-bowl of his SHURflo pump had not been screwed on to the pump's inlet sufficiently to make an air-tight seal. There's no doubt that, if there's an air-leak 'upstream' of the pump - the filter assembly loose or (as rolandrat warned) the filter-housing cracked - then the water pump will much prefer to suck in air through that leakage-point rather than suck water from the fresh-water tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 My 634 had a problem whilst away on holiday, the pump worked but no water was coming through the taps. The gauge showed 3/4 full so I filled it up and the pump worked. When the level dropped the water stopped flowing. I rang Auto-Trail as the dealer was a waste of time and they said that my motorhome could be fitted with a rogue tank that had a faulty pick up pipe fitted and the only way to resolve it was to have the tank removed at the factory and put it right. We packed everything away and travelled up to Grimsby from Oxford and the following day it was put on the ramps and the tank was removed and sorted out, it has been ok since then apart from a couple of duff pumps. I was told that the tank supplier had used another method to secure the uptake pipe and it wasn't successful, they are aware of the faulty batch and were asking owners to seek help from them or the supplying dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted December 24, 2012 Author Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hi Gents thanks for all the replies and suggestions this aft i acted on them, sucking got me nowhere *-) i even got the vacuum out and shoved that on the tap *-) nowt happened :-( so i disconnected the pump, blew down the fresh pipe into the tank and usual bubbling noises then i sucked up the pipe from the tank and got mouthfuls of water so everything is good there i then blew down the pipe that leads into the MH and a bit of water came out of the taps, i then sucked this pipe with the taps shut and no suction/breath was had so therefore no leaks or valve open i then dismantled the pump completely and nothing struck me as untoward put it all back together and attached the tank end and switched on...nothing not even a drip so it looks like the brand new pump is knackered >:-( i find this unbelievable cos its not even been used so it looks like our trip till the new year is gonna be a waterless one *-) does anyone know of a caravan store near keswick (?) i will have to buy one then charge the dealer once again many thanks for the replies Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 If you pm me you can have one of mine. We are going to Warton north of Carnforth to an MCC new year rally which is in the same direction as you. From Keighley you will probably travel up via Kirby Longsdale but we will be going via Lancaster. You can always call at my home on the way if you don't get fixed up and I'll fit it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Just a thought, did you bench test it before you put it all back together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 You asked if there are any dealers who might have a new pump. From where you live there is Leisure Tech at Clitheroe,Todds at Lostock Hall. Marquis at Preston, Campbells at Lostock Hall and Campbells other branch at Kirkham. Another one not to far from you is Richard Baldwins at Copley near Halifax or Greenwoods on Burnley Road, Todmorden. Coming over windy hill you have Emmbee at Bury. The decision is yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Just another point, you say that you dismantled the pump so I assume that you removed it from its mounting. When you put it back did you put the wires back the correct way because if you haven't the motor will be turning in the opposite direction, it will be blowing back instead of sucking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted December 24, 2012 Author Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hi Roland thanks very much for your kind offer, its much appreciated but the missus has said that we will cope, when it happened before we was in the ambleside "aire" so it was a bit of a struggle with 4 peeps, but this time we are in full facilities camp site so will be ok, no hot water but will manage the dealers you mentioned i know where they all are so thanks again for that, trouble is its xmas so they have shut till january, but i will ring em on 27th see if the shops are open gonna buy a spare now anyway then give it back to dealer in january and they can replace it didn't bench test as such but when i un coupled it from the pipe work i switched it on and there is no suction at all did same when i reassembled it, so hey ho i cant get downbeat its xmas and it will get sorted eventually i just cant believe the bad luck of it all once again many thanks to you and the other posters much appreciated and a merry xmas to you all and the other forumites on here jonathan ps yeh Roland i did make anote of the 2 wires connection and i did swap em round and it didnt even blow never mind suck 8-) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgain Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 i have had the same thing happen to the pump on my boat, and the problem was one of the 3 valves inside sticking, if you undo the end cap, you see 3 small valves, press them all in and out a few times and make sure they are all free, put the cap back on and then try it with some power before you put it back in the van,also make sure the shaft is turning that works the valves, you only need a small bit of muck and they dont go,all the best for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 hi Jonathan, I think that Richard Baldwins will be open in between Christmas and New Year, They was when I once needed a pump but since then I've learnt my lesson and always carry a spare including a gas regulator as well. Good Luck, Roland. Another thing to consider if the pump doesn't work, by that I mean silent, is the wish-bone inside the pump can stick sometimes and it means removing the top end to get at it. A good clean up and it should work again but its always best to bench check it with a spare 12v battery after. The early pumps were best and virtually trouble free but the latest ones don't seem to last for any time at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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