mike kingham Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Hi - anyone else had problems with the so called automatic gear box CLUTCH on a 2012 Fiat Ducato Burstner Elegance ? Bought mine new in June 2012, by September (and less than 600 miles) the CLUTCH had gone and I lost the ability to pull away from a standstill, whether on the level, on grass or slight incline - just revved away without moving - very embarresing !! .... Had it replaced a month later and after only 100 miles or so it went again .... Fiat are looking in to it ... But it would be nice to hear from anyone else with a similar problem or if anyone has a solution. Thanks Mike :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Sounds to me more likely to be the computer control bit, than something mechanical. I've owned a 3ltr Comfortmatic since July 08, and it has been faultless (touching some wood now!). Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Plus 1 on the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Man Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 There is a lady from motorhomefacts that tells a story of her new Elegance and its Comformatic gearbox. She tells of numerous breakdowns due to the gearbox. In the end she sang the praises of CamperUK who were apparently tireless in trying to help fix the problem. I believe that in the end she ended up with another brand new Elegance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 armstrongpiper - 2012-12-28 5:17 PM Sounds to me more likely to be the computer control bit, than something mechanical. I've owned a 3ltr Comfortmatic since July 08, and it has been faultless (touching some wood now!). Neil B Hi Neil, ditto from me ,I have owned 2 since 09 but poster does not say what size engine he has, being a 2012 van he could possibly have the smaller engine auto which is new technology or new to market is it not? Hi Armstronger-Best of luck with your problem, I am sureFiat will NOT want any more/new clutch problems cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Presumably as this is classed as an 'Automatic gearbox' the clutch linings will be included in the warranty ? with a manual box ,they try to blame the driver 'For not driving it correctly' . They cannot use this excuse with an automatic can they ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I have a Comfortmatic with no problem. There is a reference above to a problem experienced by a lady on MotorhomeFacts. That van went back to Germany and I believe the problem was due to a pinched wire caused by the converter resulting in the computer which controls the gearbox/clutch to malfunction.. The dealer - Camper UK - replaced the vehicle which was an incredible gesture. There is another issue with regard to Comfortmatic's that has caused a problem with the gearbox electronics and that is the fitting of an incorrect vehicle battery. I know that sounds daft but there is another case on MHF where a constant gearbox/clutch problem was eventually diagnosed by Fiat. It seems that the incorrect battery was fitted in the Sevel factory during manufacture. However, I suspect in the OPs case the problem is mechanical due to misalignment of the clutch lining or even faulty machining in the clutch components and not the plate as it has been replaced.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9orchard Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Hi All I'm the boy (lol) Ive just brought a burstner elegance 2012 2000miles only and cant put it away on my drive without the clutch overheating I see there are many comments on this or similar issues Please can anyone help I will be happy to receive any comment large or small . I took it to a main Fiat garage at advice of Fiat and they said this is a known problem , having spent this rather large outlay what do I do next HELP dealer is not forthcoming and I have also been told that the fiat gearbox is only possibly fit to move 3.5 tons and also 3rd axle maynot be covered by fiat what a stste of affairs again I ask HELP Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9orchard Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Hi Mike mine is the same very worried now see my reply to this problem or if not please call 07973148606 trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Hi, a 2012 Burstner will still be under warranty surely ? whether the clutch has already been replaced or not. Normally Fiat would bring up the ' user mishandling the clutch, poor driving habits, Etc.,' But this is supposed to be an 'Automatic' ... no driver intervention. So driver out of the 'Blame' equation' Obviously this is not a common fault, but 'how long is a 'Clutch' warranted for, in an Automatic gearbox ' ?? Your dealer should be doing the 'Discussion with Fiat' it's them that you bought it from. There are Many,Many over 3500kg Fiat based Coachbuilt's with the 'Comfortmatic' box fitted, So that argument is rubbish, also the rear 'Tandem' axle is made by Alko, and they have been fitted to Fiat Maxi chassis for years and years, So that argument too holds 'no water'. Pester your Dealer, YOU are NOT to blame. Keep us up to Date. Ray 9orchard, we ARE talking about a 'Comfortmatic' gearbox here aren't we ? just re read your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 9orchard - 2014-04-04 10:30 PM Hi All I'm the boy (lol) Ive just brought a burstner elegance 2012 2000miles only and cant put it away on my drive without the clutch overheating I see there are many comments on this or similar issues Please can anyone help I will be happy to receive any comment large or small . I took it to a main Fiat garage at advice of Fiat and they said this is a known problem , having spent this rather large outlay what do I do next HELP dealer is not forthcoming and I have also been told that the fiat gearbox is only possibly fit to move 3.5 tons and also 3rd axle maynot be covered by fiat what a stste of affairs again I ask HELP Trevor First, is the base vehicle (the Fiat bit) still under warranty, and what model Elegance is it? If originally sourced in UK there should be a third year's insurance backed warranty on the mechanical parts, although I believe the clutch is excluded. You should have the documents, so it would be worth checking. Second how steep is your drive, and do you have a clear run at it, or do you need to inch it up? Third, what is the engine? I assume 180hp 3 litre. Fourth, do you reverse onto your drive, or drive in? The Ducato has a highish reverse gear ratio, which may be at the root of your problem with the clutch overheating. I assume your Elegance is a manual transmission, as you don't say it is Comfortmatic? The comment that the box is only fit for 3.5 tonnes seems ill informed. But, can you confirm that the base vehicle is the "heavy" chassis with 16" wheels. I believe this is standard for Elegance models, and that the standard MAM is 5 tonnes. If so, as Fiat build 4 tonne versions of the Ducato with 2.5 tonne braked trailer load in addition (i.e. 6.5 tonne train weight), the mechanicals are clearly deemed suitable for that. However, the braked trailer limit will have been reduced by Burstner on your van, in view of the increased MAM. The Burstner plate will show this. The Elegance has an AlKo chassis, and both rear axles are of their manufacture. However, I understand that the hub carriers, hubs, discs, callipers, etc are all Fiat components, so it is only the axles themselves that would not be serviced within the standard Fiat servicing regime, albeit here may be an additional charge for checking the third axle wheels, tyres and brakes. Some axle versions have grease nipples, others have sealed for life bearings, so there is little to no axle maintenance that is required. The axles and rear chassis are seperately warranted by AlKo. Regarding mileage, 2K miles since 2012 is very low. Do you know if there is a reason for this? If the van has been standing for a long time unused, as opposed to being used frequently but for short trips, it may possibly be exacerbating your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9orchard Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Hi Mike and ALL. My motorhome is NK12CYT 2012 burstner elegance i810G 3.0 ltr Automatic with 2,000 miles only, This was explained to be low due to the previous owner being too busy fitting carpets at exhibition cetres, When I first picked it up oin friday 14th at travelworld i took it on a maiden voyage to wales and returned on the 17th following a breakdown on the friday night they fixed the breakdown saturday morning and i traveled on returning on Monday I said that the rear axle did squeek and rub i have email saying that this was a common fault (i did not believe this ) they took the wheels off and said all was ok but when the rear camera is on i can hear it still making noises, Ant way back to the main problem sliping box , I also have an email from travelworld stating that as i had been looking for this model for 18 months surely i knew about the auto box this is not a good answer or comment and I am not impressed as at this cost it should be fit for purpose . My drive is very slight gradient uphill but only slightly 175mm over 10metres the first time i put it away it smoked very badly and is less each time having done it 5 times now i still cant stop it overheating giving off a bad burning smell. an email from Travelworld said the factory in Germany knoe this is a problem on other manufactures using this gear box and sales person went to a weeks course how to use the gearbox without touching any other pedals. I oi not touch any this is b... s... I have driven every type of vechicle in many forms and countrys. Having contacted fiat and booked into Northern Commercial, Tonbridge at Fiats recommendation last week Tuesday They informed me that the problems would not be covered by fiat like i said before and unless the rear axle brakes are set up with the rear axle braking slightly behind the front rear axle it would do this ( this may have some merit but again i don't know They like I said and others have wrote want to be paid up front and as they said could be many hours finding problem at my initial cost and little hope of recouping it from Fiat so i drove away . I would add that the gearbox is brilliant in all foward gears and changes so quietly without any issues , Overall i'm very impressed and happy with what is a brilliant piece of kit. Having read some of the other comments it seems that i should firstly try agent i brought it from and Fiat again reporting Northern Commercials points of view i feel that the problem is major to me and having read other issues about ECU units and other possibilities it would seen that Motor World UK are the best next option failing not getting any satisfaction from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9orchard Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Hi BRIAN You seem very knowledgeable please read my previous reply to mike THanks Trevor by the way its a german import i think as purchase document in in german ? but really i want to talk to previous owner but dealer not helping makes me think why ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 The number plate suggests it was registered in Newcastle, could the previous owner have bought it from Tyne Valley Motorhomes. You seem to be getting quite a few lame excuses, it's not surprising in the leisure industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 9orchard - 2014-04-05 9:35 PM Hi BRIAN You seem very knowledgeable please read my previous reply to mike THanks Trevor by the way its a german import i think as purchase document in in german ? but really i want to talk to previous owner but dealer not helping makes me think why ? Is the name of the previous owner not on the log book then? Should state all previous owners , I thought? PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 PJay - 2014-04-06 10:56 AM 9orchard - 2014-04-05 9:35 PM Hi BRIAN You seem very knowledgeable please read my previous reply to mike THanks Trevor by the way its a german import i think as purchase document in in german ? but really i want to talk to previous owner but dealer not helping makes me think why ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is the name of the previous owner not on the log book then? Should state all previous owners , I thought? PJay[/quote ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 9orchard - 2014-04-05 9:35 PM Hi BRIAN You seem very knowledgeable please read my previous reply to mike THanks Trevor by the way its a german import i think as purchase document in in german ? but really i want to talk to previous owner but dealer not helping makes me think why ? I did, which is why I asked all those questions! :-) If you can accurately and clearly answer all the questions, someone may be able to start to give answers. Motorhomes are not standard products, like cars, they have numerous options available to the first owner. Trying to fault-find via the forum is a bit of a forensic exercise. If you can clarify the exact circumstances, we can possibly begin to get somewhere. Otherwise, at present, IMO the possibilities are too numerous to be able to make much headway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 I am curious as to why Northern Commercials say that Fiat would not be liable for repairs ? The Vehicle is still within it's 2 year German warranty ? Is this for the Gearbox Faults or the Alko rear axle ? as Brian has said, the noisy rear axle/ brake setup may be an Alko problem : Service centers listed here : http://finder.al-ko.co.uk/ Personally, I would return it to your Dealer Travelworld, and get them to sort it out. It is them that you have the contract with. And perhaps consider rejecting it as 'Not fit for purpose' you have only had it since the 14th (March?) too soon for you to be going direct to Fiat or Alko. this is a Travelworld Problem : http://www.motorhomes.co.uk/motorhome-owners/customer-services-2/ Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 the one and only time I asked Travelworld for assistance I ended up going to Dudleys who were exceptionally professional and sorted my problem out in quick time. Would I ever deal with Travelworld again? Never!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 As Ray says it's up to Travelworld to sort it, the sale contract is between you and Travelworld. Must admit I'm don't like the way Travelworld do business, when I advertised my van I had an email and a call from them telling me my vehicle is just the sort of van they are looking for as they had a shortage of good quality S/H vans and would get back to me with an offer. Salesman came bake says he could see my van on their forecourt in the low thirties and said they could make an offer of around the mid twenties, I told him were to go and when I sold it privately I got 35½ for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 mike kingham - 2012-12-28 4:28 PM Hi - anyone else had problems with the so called automatic gear box CLUTCH on a 2012 Fiat Ducato Burstner Elegance ? Bought mine new in June 2012, by September (and less than 600 miles) the CLUTCH had gone and I lost the ability to pull away from a standstill, whether on the level, on grass or slight incline - just revved away without moving - very embarresing !! .... Had it replaced a month later and after only 100 miles or so it went again .... Fiat are looking in to it ... But it would be nice to hear from anyone else with a similar problem or if anyone has a solution. Thanks Mike :-) Hello Mike Might I sugget you re-post your query in a new string, as it seems inadvertantly to have been hijacked by Trevor and his possibly similar problem? I think trying to deal with two separate problems on the same string will merely result in confusion. Re the above, I'm puzzled. You bought new in June 2012 and three months later the van would not pull away from standstill. If I understand correctly, the clutch was replaced under warranty in October 2012 and 100 miles later failed again. You then say Fiat are looking into it. Do you mean they have been continually investigating this failure since October 2012, and you have not hand use of the van since then? Surely not. Can you please clarify what went wrong when, and/or what it is that Fiat are now investigating? Can you also say what role the supplying dealer has been playing in this situation? They sold the van and are legally responsible for its failings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-04-06 11:29 AM 9orchard - 2014-04-05 9:35 PM Hi BRIAN You seem very knowledgeable please read my previous reply to mike THanks Trevor by the way its a german import i think as purchase document in in german ? but really i want to talk to previous owner but dealer not helping makes me think why ? I did, which is why I asked all those questions! :-) If you can accurately and clearly answer all the questions, someone may be able to start to give answers. Motorhomes are not standard products, like cars, they have numerous options available to the first owner. Trying to fault-find via the forum is a bit of a forensic exercise. If you can clarify the exact circumstances, we can possibly begin to get somewhere. Otherwise, at present, IMO the possibilities are too numerous to be able to make much headway. Sorry Trevor, I managed to miss your subsequent post giving more detail when writing the above! :-) So, you bought from Travelworld in Shropshire but took the van to Northern Commercials in Tonbridge, Kent, when it developed faults. Either you bought a long way from where you live, or took it for repair a long way from where you live! :-) I note Northern Commercials are not, in fact Fiat, but Iveco, dealers but, as Iveco are part of the Fiat group, and as you say Fiat recommended them, I guess they are deemed competent. I don't think the clutch is the problem, because you say the van drives forward perfectly well. It sounds to me as though the tyres may be binding on the rear wheel arches, and the transition from the cambered road onto your drive is causing this to become acute. This may be due to local factors, or it may be due to a fault with the rear suspension, or possibly the brakes. However, I can't see why binding brakes would become a problem only when reversing. Travel World say of all their used vehicles that "as standard" with every motorhome they sell they carry out, or provide: "HPI check 90 point Habitation Service Damp test Full Chassis inspection Twelve months MOT (where relevant) Engine Service Gas safety inspection Electric safety inspection Full interior valet Exterior clean and polish Six months warranty" (Bot note this warranty is an insurance backed warranty provided by MB&G.) So, if the rear wheels are rubbing on the wheel arches - which is what you appear to be describing - and as you can't reverse it up a minor incline, it sounds as though the problem may be with the rear suspension height setting. This will have been set correctly by Burstner when the vehicle left their factory, but there are a few possible explanations as to why it may now be wrong. First, and simplest, is overload. Have you weighed the van and have you checked the load on the rear axles? If the springing on one axle has failed, it would tend to overload the other, causing the whole rear to drop, but I'd be surprised if both sides would have failed simultaneously, and one side only failing would leave the van lop sided, which you don't mention. Another possibility is that it has AlKo air ride suspension, and this has failed. This would leave the rear of the van very low, and the tyres liable to bind on the wheel arches, especially when making the transition from a cambered road to a rising drive. This sounds a little like what you are experiencing. If this is the case, the failed suspension may have caused more extensive damage, and would need careful investigation. A further possibility is that the air suspension is not correctly set up, or has been left on its lowest setting, and merely needs to be set to ride higher when negotiating your drive. Failed suspension might have arisen after you left Travel World. What was the nature of the breakdown you experienced in Wales? Did this relate to the suspension? However, if so equipped, it seems odd that you were not (apparently) given a briefing on air suspension when taking delivery of the van, and even odder that faulty suspension was not identified during Travel World's "full chassis inspection". I would suggest you have an immediate look underneath to see whether there are air-ride units on the rear suspension, and also whether the van seems especially low on one side. In the absence of facts the above is mere conjecture. I'm afraid only you can establish the facts. However, you absolutely must keep Travel World informed, and you must give them the opportunity to put the van right. If you don't, you will make any attempt to recover costs from them in future much more difficult. I'd suggest speaking to them by phone initially, and following up with confirmation of what was agreed either by e-mail or preferably by letter. This should eliminate any subsequent misunderstandings as to who is to do what, and when. In the first instance (i.e before you do anything else), I think advise them that the van has a serious fault, and will not reverse properly. Ask them how they would like to proceed. Deflect any question of the warranty, and politely advise them that you are looking to Travel World to remedy any defects, not a third party. Advise them that you wish to take the van to a Fiat authorised repairer for initial investigation. Also advise that if there is a fault, you will expect Travel World to cover these investigatory costs. If, following your own examination, you think the problem relates to the rear suspension, ask the Fiat repairer (or Northern Commercials if you go back to them) for that area to be investigated, but not to carry out any repairs. Explain the circumstances to them, and ask them to give you a written cost estimate for repairing any faults they find. It should only require the rear ground clearances on both sides to be measured, and the vehicle taken up on a hoist for inspection of the rear suspension from below. A competent mechanic will be able to say if tyres are rubbing wheel arches, if air suspension is fitted, and whether any other suspension faults are visible. Not more than a hour of someone's time, I'd think. Say £90 or so. What happens next will depend on what you, and the repairer, find. If the damage is serious, and not covered by the Fiat warranty, you will need to be prepared to return it to Travel World for repair if that is their preference. It may be that the repair would have to be carried out by AlKo, if the fault is in their suspension parts. Ray has given a link to them above. It may also be that the van should not be driven more then a minimal distance in it's present state, so it may have to be transported. That, you can only confront when you know what is the problem, who can repair it, and who is to bear the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9orchard Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Brian Having read you very detailed reply I would like to thank you for your detailed knowledge and complete understanding of the problem. I believe that your reply is probably spot on and having taken it out of parking spot today o get other vehicles out and then put back i took great care on all of my actions and related them to your observations. The main thing you picked up on being that the air ride suspension was set to low so as to fit under a gutter, I have not yet checked how low or tight it gets to the wheels but will check in daylight. Today in backing it in I did not let air down to such a low level and took extreme care and deliberate time in changing direction (forward to reverse) and i dont think there was any problem although my wife said she could smell something but then she would sniff out a rat at 200 paces no joking aside I am feeling like your help is greatly helping and In the daylight all will be checked with a fine tooth comb and I will let you know just what It is. If this is the answer and you are typical of the type of help all members get, may the wind and rain be always at your back and the sun on your face wherever you roam. Trev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9orchard Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Stalwart your spot on with all details all I need is name of previous owner pulled out of your magic bag PLEAS Trev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 9orchard - 2014-04-06 9:29 PM Brian Having read you very detailed reply I would like to thank you for your detailed knowledge and complete understanding of the problem. I believe that your reply is probably spot on and having taken it out of parking spot today o get other vehicles out and then put back i took great care on all of my actions and related them to your observations. The main thing you picked up on being that the air ride suspension was set to low so as to fit under a gutter, I have not yet checked how low or tight it gets to the wheels but will check in daylight. Today in backing it in I did not let air down to such a low level and took extreme care and deliberate time in changing direction (forward to reverse) and i dont think there was any problem although my wife said she could smell something but then she would sniff out a rat at 200 paces no joking aside I am feeling like your help is greatly helping and In the daylight all will be checked with a fine tooth comb and I will let you know just what It is. If this is the answer and you are typical of the type of help all members get, may the wind and rain be always at your back and the sun on your face wherever you roam. Trev You're welcome Trevor. More guesswork than knowledge, I have to say! :-) You didn't mention the air-ride rear suspension - that was a pure guess! But, it is a long van, so when crossing from the road to your drive, I'd suggest you raise the rear to near its maximum, and only lower it to clear the gutter once the rear axles are both onto the drive. I suspect one at least of the rear wheels was jamming under the wheel arch, and you were reversing against the considerable drag of that. It won't have improved the clutch, but as it is relatively new that shouldn't be terminal. I would have a good look at the wheel arches, though, since the squeaking you mentioned before suggests the contact has happened on previous occasions. The wheel arches are only plastic, and contact with the tyre will have genereted considerable heat, which doesn't take long to soften most plastics. The obvious danger is a hole that lets water in, that you don't see because it isn't in a place you can easily see - if you can actually see the area at all! Lets just hope the wheel arches are sound. Good luck! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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