ips Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Transit takes ages to start have to keep turning key about 6 or 10 times before it starts then it runs fine. Start it every week or two and never had a problem till last few moths. Changed oil and filter in august presume it was correct stuff got from halfords told em model etc. Seems to turn over ok so dont think its battery. Seems to smell a bit weird when it does start. Anyone any ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Glow plugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 There are so many things it could be, the pre-heaters, the pump, timing, blocked fuel filter, battery failing, and so on. You could try asking on the Transit forum http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=680278a2a8c69f38163b2c0105f75117 H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 You do not say what sort of Transit you have, but from your photo, it looks like a MK7. The MK7 does have heater plugs, which are mainly intended to help with emissions when the engine is cold, rather than to help starting. Nevertheless, it is good practice to wait until the heater light has gone out in the dash before attempting to start: have you done this? Next, have you changed the fuel filter? If the above are OK then the smell could be due to sunburnt fuel from the exhaust and I would suggest taking the van to a Ford dealer and having the codes read. A good source of info on the Transit and its foibles is: http://fordtransit.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Sounds very much like a problem i had with the last Zafira i had. It seemed to just come from nowhere 1 day it was fine and the next started playing up. If i started it regular every day it was OK but leave for more than 24 hours and it was a bugger to start. Once it did start it ran like a dream It turned out to be a Faulty Leak Off pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 spospe - 2013-01-01 4:51 PM...................If the above are OK then the smell could be due to sunburnt fuel from the exhaust and I would suggest taking the van to a Ford dealer and having the codes read................ I doubt this will be the case at this time of year. Summer only I'd think! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-01-01 7:05 PM spospe - 2013-01-01 4:51 PM...................If the above are OK then the smell could be due to sunburnt fuel from the exhaust and I would suggest taking the van to a Ford dealer and having the codes read................ I doubt this will be the case at this time of year. Summer only I'd think! :-D Brian With these software controlled engines, if all the obvious mechanical items have been attended to, then the next thing is to have any OBDC codes read. Given that most motorhome owners will not have a code reader, this means a trip to a Ford dealer and make use of their etis system to read / clear the codes. Unburned fuel in the exhaust (caused by the diesel equivalent of overfueling, like running with the choke out) will cause some smell and will usually result in one or more fault codes being present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granddad Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 hi il go with the glow plugs done the same as u change oil ect then hard to start started ok before change granddad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-01-01 7:05 PM spospe - 2013-01-01 4:51 PM...................If the above are OK then the smell could be due to sunburnt fuel from the exhaust and I would suggest taking the van to a Ford dealer and having the codes read................ I doubt this will be the case at this time of year. Summer only I'd think! :-D Red Diesel.........? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Transits are not really my subject but I belive they have a heater unit in the manifold to warm the air and assist cold starting/reduce emmissions. Its not a easy thing to find or service apparently. Sounds like a trip Uncle Henry Ford to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 George Collings - 2013-01-01 8:15 PM Transits are not really my subject but I belive they have a heater unit in the manifold to warm the air and assist cold starting/reduce emmissions. Its not a easy thing to find or service apparently. Sounds like a trip Uncle Henry Ford to me. George The heater unit in the MK5 2.5DI is actually very easy to see and sort out; it is located on the right of the inlet manifold, just before the butterfly flap of the EGR system and can be recognised by both the wire for its heater and the fuel pipe feeding to it. The MK5 2.5DI engine has never been fitted with glow plugs. Both the MK6 and MK7 2.4 TDDI and TDCI engines have glow plugs, but these are mainly to reduce emissions when the engine is cold rather than to assist starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Like I said the Trannie is not really my subject so thanks for the info. I take it that only the engine oil filter was changed. If the fuel filter was also done the possibility of a small air leak into the fuel sytem might arise and take a while to bleed through but there are dozens of possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawcara Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Just taken our Chausson on a transit to Mr Ford for its service. I mentioned the fuel filter and they said that they test to see whether it needs changing. However, they have done a lot more this winter than normally which they put down to the wet weather. They did not change ours. Don't know whether this has any relevance or it just raises other issues. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Based on this August 2012 thread http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fair-price-for-oil-filter-and-brake-fluid-change-/28535/ it seems that ips DIY changed just his motorhome's engine oil and oil-filter at that time. Transit Mk 7s should have 5W-30 oil meeting Ford's specification and there have been reports of them being finicky if a lesser specification oil is used. However, if the correct oil and filter were used (I always demand that the garage that services my Transit-based Hobby fits Ford-branded filters) it's difficult to see how this would affect cold starting. (Presumably ips's vehicle starts OK when warm?) The Haynes Transit Mk 6 manual has a fault-finding section relating to when an engine is difficult to start from cold. This offers the following possible reasons: 1. Battery discharged. 2. Battery terminal connections loose or corroded. 3. Preheating system faulty. 4. Fuel injection/engine management system fault. 5. Wrong grade of engine oil used. 6. Low cylinder compression. 7. Air in fuel system. (it's probable that a Transit Mk 7 would share those reasons.) I believe that, for Transit Mk 6/Mk 7 vehicles, priming/bleeding the fuel system after a fuel-filter change can be problematical. See: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Transit-fuel-filter-/27422/ http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Tranny-service-/28455/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 Many thanks for all the very good advice. Just to clarify i only changed oil and oil filter. Cant remember what the oil was as i just gave model etc to chap on desk and if looked in his book. Strange that it has only occurred since oil change Allways started first time in previous winter and started just as regularity. Van is under cover in a car port so shouldn't have got damp anywhere. Beghning to sound like maybe i was given wrong oil. Funny how that effects starting though. I have a code reader so might see if that tells me anything if not prob better get my garage chap to have a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Halfords giving you the wrong Oil ??????.......................................LOL Surely it is entirely your fault for giving them false and misleading information !!!! There is no way that the Numpty on the info desk could have hit the wrong key or just read it wrong is there ? Think i need to go and have a lie down now having had such a shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 If the wrong viscosity oil is used in a MK7 Transit it can cause so much "drag" that the engine does not turn over quickly enough to fire when cold. The wrong oil can also flow too slowly around the small bore oil passages and the timing tensioner can be starved of oil, since it is tensioned in the main by oil pressure, during cold cranking the timing chain can actually jump a tooth. This does not seem to be the problem but it is worth mentioning, only the correct spec. oil should be used on these engines. Do not attempt to tow start the engine, the chain will jump a tooth or two and wreck the top end. Remember the same engine is used in other makes of vehicle. While I am on the subject, a friend was (now retired) an oil developer for a major oil company, he told me that just because an oil carries the specification required it does not make all oils equal. Cheaper oils are not as good as more expensive ones. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Hello IPS, The grade of oil will have no effect on starting whatsoever, so even if it is wrong; this is not your problem. You only have to look at the usable temperature ranges of 0W30, 5W30, 5W40 and even 10W40 oils to confirm this. There may well be an optimum, or a manufacturer recommended spec but it won't be causing your problem. Late model Transits have a pretty stupid fuel line arrangement and it does sound like you are getting an air lock in the lines between the filter and the high pressure pump. I can't speculate where this is and it needs to be inspected carefully. You won't necessarily see any fuel leaking out as this is on the low pressure side of the system. Alternatively it may be a leaking injector. The Delphi injectors that Ford use are well known for slipping out of tolerance and are just as likely as Bosch units to be leaking when not activated. This has the effect of the fuel rail not being able to achieve the necessary pressure before and during starting and so will not allow it to start. The injectors can often run perfectly after starting but do not fully close when switched off. Mild cases can often be overcome with extended use of the starter motor, but long cranking times are normally a sign that you will eventually have to attend to the fault because at it's worst you will only be able to start using 'easy-start' because the system just won't allow low pressure starts. The worst case scenario is that a leaking injector will either fill the combustion chamber with fuel and 'hydraulic' the piston and cause major damage much like driving through flood water, or the fuel will seep past the piston rings and play havoc with the oil in the sump and raise the level risking 'hydraulic-ing' from underneath the pistons and again causing serious damage. Finally, if a plug in is required it may reveal an intermittent cam or crank sensor fault. This may indicate the sensor is faulty of that the wiring or terminating plug is not correctly inserted. Sensors sometimes produce faults when cold or when hot but not at the opposing times. They are sensitive little buggers! The smell that you noticed may well be because excess fuel has been dumped into the exhaust while it was trying to start, or the Starter Motor will be getting hot because it is running for much longer than it is designed to do. Bottom line is that it may be a simple or a complicated fix but it won't go away or get better without a trip to Ford or a specialist that can also plug it in if there is nothing immediately obvious. Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 Many thanks nick for a very informative reply, i must admit i found it hard to believe that the oil could be the issue. Will have to book it in i think as i dont want any further damage to occur. Thanks again to everyone i Will report back with any outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 UPDATE Booked it in with my usual garage so decided to get it out day before and go and fill up with deisel as it was now showing the 50m left in tank light. Took about 15 turns of key to start so off I drove the 1 1/2 m to filling station were I brimmed with fuel. It then took numerous attempts and about 5 mins to get it started phew very stresfull. Decided I better leave it in front yard overnight to save messing in the morning. Got up following morning to take to garage and the son of a ..... started first time. Took to garage were they checked all sorts of thing but found no fault, bloody typical. Since then so far its started no probs. Fuel at fault maybe ....... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Hi ips, I had not considered that the last time you filled this vehicle up was probably before the beginning of November and therefore would not have had winter diesel in it. The temperature when you first noticed the problem was not consistently below freezing but it sure is now. I am still not convinced that the problem was fuel waxing but it can't be ruled out; particularly when the tank was almost empty and there could well have been more water in there than normal due to condensation. All in all, not ideal circumstances for a diesel engine! I hope you don't have any more problems. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I have had fuel waxing in a MK 5 Transit, but it only affected running at speed, not the starting. I had filled up in the south of France in the warm and then travelled north into the cold and snow. Fingers crossed for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 Tryed it again Fri and started 1st time. I am not convinced what the problem was as i am sure it first started or rather it didnt during previous tank full not just the last nearly empty anyway seems ok now so fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul- Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 It looks like you had old diesel and it waxed up a bit ;-) old as in pre winter additive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 So is the diesel supplied at forecourt different in winter ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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