Terrytraveller Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I have sent the email below to Gaslow, and will print their answer when received. Any comments or advice to the questions below I am sure will be appreciated by myself and campers who intend to fit a gaslow system in the near future. Dear Sir/Madam, I wish to purchase a Gaslow twin 6kg refillable system for my motorhome, before purchasing I have a few questions brought about by reading postings on various forums, perhaps you would be kind enough to advise/comment. About the present system. The motorhome gas system is just pre bulkhead regulator era. I have checked all my appliances in my 2004 reg motorhome and they all conform to the cat 28mb butane/37mb propane and/or 30mb for butane and propane, it would seem that they will run at 30mb, at present I use calor propane 37mb individual regulators on two gas bottles with a manual change over system. Butane/Propane Ratio's. Reading the forums I notice that the LPG supplied in Europe can have widely differing ratios of butane and propane mixes, from 70/30 in Europe to 0/100 propane in UK. Butane is normally regulated at 28mb pressure and Propane normally regulated at 37mb pressure for pre-bulkhead fitted regulators. Fitted bulkhead regulators are regulated at 30mb pressure. My Questions. I have read some user notices on the forums that overheating of some appliances has taken place with Gaslow refillable LPG systems using the 37mb regulator, caused most likely by the high butane content (and hotter flame) of some LPG fills in Europe, rather than a faulty regulator, as this was changed with the same problem occurring. It seems to me that it would be better to fit a 30mb regulator which delivers less gas to the appliance burners and works equally well on either butane or propane. Do you supply a gas bottle 30 mb regulator, any advice will be appreciated. Installation of filler Kit. Is it safe and/or permissible to run the filler and flexible steel filler pipe inside the motorhome suitably enclosed with gas drops to the underside of vehicle. There are many gas pipes inside a motorhome with suitable gas drops already, but these pipes are low pressure i.e. after the regulator. (your install instructions in PDF format seem a bit sparse of detailed information regarding the recommended positioning of the filler and flexible pipe.).) Is there a one way or automatic shut off valve in the gas inputs to your cylinders, so that if a leak occurs between external filler and steel flexible pipe to gas bottles the entire contents of both bottles will not evacuate into the motorhome or via the gas drops onto the road or vehicle exhaust pipe? (i.e. if I undo the flexible filler pipe at the gas bottle will all the gas from the bottle escape?) The gas locker drops are only 2 inches away from the exhaust system on my Autocruise motorhome, what is the minimum clearance of flexible steel filler pipe to exhaust pipe is recommended? Any comments you make will be very much appreciated and will post them on the various motorhome forums for others to read. Yours sincerely - Terry Hart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Some comments embedded based on my own experience having fitted a bulk tank over a year ago. I wish to purchase a Gaslow twin 6kg refillable system for my motorhome, before purchasing I have a few questions brought about by reading postings on various forums, perhaps you would be kind enough to advise/comment. "You should not limit yourself to Gaslow. Others like MTH Autogas who I used also offer similar equipment, tanks, steel and composite cylinders.." About the present system. The motorhome gas system is just pre bulkhead regulator era. I have checked all my appliances in my 2004 reg motorhome and they all conform to the cat 28mb butane/37mb propane and/or 30mb for butane and propane, it would seem that they will run at 30mb, at present I use calor propane 37mb individual regulators on two gas bottles with a manual change over system. Butane/Propane Ratio's. Reading the forums I notice that the LPG supplied in Europe can have widely differing ratios of butane and propane mixes, from 70/30 in Europe to 0/100 propane in UK. Butane is normally regulated at 28mb pressure and Propane normally regulated at 37mb pressure for pre-bulkhead fitted regulators. Fitted bulkhead regulators are regulated at 30mb pressure. My Questions. I have read some user notices on the forums that overheating of some appliances has taken place with Gaslow refillable LPG systems using the 37mb regulator, caused most likely by the high butane content (and hotter flame) of some LPG fills in Europe, rather than a faulty regulator, as this was changed with the same problem occurring. It seems to me that it would be better to fit a 30mb regulator which delivers less gas to the appliance burners and works equally well on either butane or propane. Do you supply a gas bottle 30 mb regulator, any advice will be appreciated. "Don,t know but we have never had any overheating problems using a 37mb regulator. One fill of our bulk tank is equivalent to 2 X 11 KG bottles and we used effectively half a bottle over 4 weeks in France. So never filled up in Europe. However long term tourer Don Madge should be able to give you a definitive answer to this based on his own experience." Installation of filler Kit. Is it safe and/or permissible to run the filler and flexible steel filler pipe inside the motorhome suitably enclosed with gas drops to the underside of vehicle. There are many gas pipes inside a motorhome with suitable gas drops already, but these pipes are low pressure i.e. after the regulator. (your install instructions in PDF format seem a bit sparse of detailed information regarding the recommended positioning of the filler and flexible pipe.).) "What you propose is common practice and I saw an instalation just as this being fitted at Lincoln over this week end." Is there a one way or automatic shut off valve in the gas inputs to your cylinders, so that if a leak occurs between external filler and steel flexible pipe to gas bottles the entire contents of both bottles will not evacuate into the motorhome or via the gas drops onto the road or vehicle exhaust pipe? (i.e. if I undo the flexible filler pipe at the gas bottle will all the gas from the bottle escape?) "All cylinders should have a one way valve so that the only gas that can escape if the input is damaged is that within the filler pipe." The gas locker drops are only 2 inches away from the exhaust system on my Autocruise motorhome, what is the minimum clearance of flexible steel filler pipe to exhaust pipe is recommended? "Don,t like the sound of this though. I should contact Autocruise formerly and ask them for a formal reply." Good luck C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted July 17, 2006 Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 Thanks Clive for your input. I must of read over a hundred posts regarding LPG, most of the problems encountered, and there were only a few, where tanks/cylinders are not gassing off entirely when less than half full. This happens after the propane has been used leaving only the butane, which will not gas off in very cold weather, when the camper is returned to warmer climates the butane gasses off okay. My main concern is the gas pressure, if it is okay to use the residue butane element of an LPG fill at 37mb in the Gaslow system, and adaptors are supplied so that the 37mb calor regulator can be used with this system, why for years we have been asked to change to 28mb when using Butane. The Data Plates on my appliances show that all equipment will run okay on any of the recommended regulators 28mb butane, 37mb propane or 30mb for either butane and propane. As far as I know there is no sensing device in the appliances to determine the composition of the gas being supplied and so there must be a built in burner/jet tolerance, but only when the regulator is supplying gas at 30mb. There must be a good safety or appliance longevity reason for limiting butane usage to the lower pressure of 28mb - but what is it? if not to reduce the risk of overheating the appliances. I still haven't heard from Gaslow yet,so I might shoot off my email to some of the other equipment supplers as you suggest. Kind regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I have had the Gaslow system fitted in the MH for over a year and i can say it was the best thing i have fitted so far. standard manual change over run on one bottle with the other as a reserve I have this weekend toured with full bottles 44 ltrs in all and had no problems with the heat expanding the liquid lpg as mentioned by another user i can only put that down to a faulty seating on the fill side of the bottle. I placed my fill connector on a bracket within the gas locker due mainly to the fact i didnt want to drill the side of the van and secondly i could remove the whole lot if i sold and bought another unit. I would not advocate having the filler inside the van for safety reasons LPG is after all highly inflammable and sould be shown respect, i have witnessed a motorhome set on fire by a faulty gas hose and there was nothing we could do to stop the total destruction of someones pride and joy. With every refill i have calculated i get half 11kg bottle free on the continent its even a greater saving from the conventional set up. As for the regulator the one supplied was a 37 bar which suite my BBQ the old 30bar wasnt sufficient in gas delivery to get it really hot. I found the company very good having ordered the wrong lengths of filler hose they immediately posted the correct length at no extra cost. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Hi Terry, Well, someone looked at the two gases and pressures and made a decision that modern appliances are sufficiently tolerant to be able to work with either. Don,t forget that a modern van will be supplied with one compromise regulator and a flexible hose with fittings for either 100% Propane or 100% Butane to fit to non customer refillable bottles. Both systems must work to EEC rules and within the appliance manufacturers limits. So a re-fillable bottle cannot be any worse than this regarding flame sizes or calorific value. If however someone has fitted a new "compromise" regulator on an old van with old appliances it is just possible that some appliances may be a bit lively when on 100% butane. But I haven,t come acros this before as a problem. The only worry I would have in your position is the close proximity of the vehicle exhaust to gas pipework. Running a pipe from a gas bottle to an external filling point is for both convenience and to stop the filling station staff questioning you about filling bottles. Check out costs with both Gaslow and MTH for example as the equipment they supply is very similar. Personally I don,t feel at ease with composite bottles yet and feel safer with steel. Its also cheaper! but heavier. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted July 17, 2006 Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 Thanks Pete and Clive for your input. I read with interest that Pete found the 30mb regulator did not give enough flame on his BBQ, one contibutor on another forum found that the pan rack on the cooker glowed red when he used 37mb regulator on LPG! I suppose I will have to try my existing 37mb on LPG once fitted, and make a judgement from the results. I do take on board the possible risks by fitting the filler and pipework within the camper interior, Pete's idea of placing on a bracket inside the gas locker is well worth consideration. I did read that one camper made up a bracket for his installation and offered some of the same for sale at £20.00. I wonder if fitting the filler to the gas locker door would be satisfactory, bearing in mind that the hose will be required to flex quite often. On gas mixes, perhaps the frequent movement of a camper on tour, unlike a caravan, would help mixing the lpg constituents and aid the gassing off. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I've had my 13 kg refillable bottle for three years now, it was one of the first on the market. On my previous van a Laika A Class I had two 60 litre tanks so I was very familiar with the system. I was downsizing to a Timberland Freedom on the LWB Fiat Ducato so a fitted tank was out so it had to be a bottle with an external filling point. I looked long and hard at the available bottles and came up with the following. Gaslow. Cheapest of the bunch, no gauge and no 85% stop. As I could only get one 13kg bottle in my gas locker the Gaslow bottles were no good to me. Also I was not very happy of the Gaslow practice of cutting the tops of the bottles to fit in some gas lockers. I saw the results of this on one van, it almost caused an explosion with their shoddy workmanship. TB Turbo. The price they were asking was a joke. MTH Autogas. I had one of their 13kg bottles fitted, it came complete with a very accurate gauge and the 85% stop. The gauge is essential if you only have one bottle. They also fitted an external filling point and the system has worked well in the last three years. I have filled up with LPG all over Europe and in Turkey as well, as far as I'm concerned it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Don My Gaslow regulator has a gauge plus they do a remote to warn you of impending doom running out gauge in the van. As for the Bracket i made one out of 1/8 aluminium and bolted it to the side of the gas locker its nice and sturdy. I also attached the cap to the filler with wash basin chain so i dont tale it off and leave it at the filling station. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Don: Gaslow bottles have always had an 80% 'stop-fill' valve - it was one of the system's selling-points versus MTH Autogas's composite bottles (that don't have an 80% valve). Spartan: My experience of gauges on regulators (and I've had Gaslow and Truma versions) is that, while they are valuable for leak-checking, they aren't much cop for telling you how much LPG remains in a bottle (though they will tell you when the gas has all gone!) For an accurate measurement you need a mechanical gauge of the type fitted to Don's bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Derek I agree with gauges its a help but not much of one I run on one bottle and have the other as a reserve so i refill as soon as i empty one bottle. Ive tried those magnetic stick on gauges but found them to near useless so i try the old method and see how heavy the bottle is when im running BBQ`s and table top heaters and on site for a while. There`s plenty of LPG stations about so a top up regularly so it isnt much of a problem. My new toy is a power chip and so far ive increase the bottom end and a little mid range with two settings to go cruise control stay in much longer due to extra power plus fuel consumption is a little better, tests continuing. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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