Imigration

[CliveH]

One thing about the Polish immigrants that we see round here is their work ethic. People say why not train our own youngsters.

 

Well sadly - the ability of most UK bred youngsters to even get out of bed seems to be such that the Poles and other hard working immigrants will always be able to work in the UK.

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

CliveH - 2013-01-12 1:19 PM

 

One thing about the Polish immigrants that we see round here is their work ethic. People say why not train our own youngsters.

 

Well sadly - the ability of most UK bred youngsters to even get out of bed seems to be such that the Poles and other hard working immigrants will always be able to work in the UK.

 

 

Well we all know the answer to that, gangmasters preying on the vulnerable for the most part and paying very low bordering on slave wages, do your home work, but just another urban myth for the most part saying UK youngsters are lazy, do you really think they are all happy in the no hope situation many find themselves, even university graduates, grow up, don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail. but I'll bet they say the same about the 50% youth unemployed in Spain and Greece.

[Brian Kirby]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-12 1:58 PM..............Well we all know the answer to that, gangmasters preying on the vulnerable for the most part and paying very low bordering on slave wages, do your home work, but just another urban myth for the most part saying UK youngsters are lazy, do you really think they are all happy in the no hope situation many find themselves, even university graduates, grow up, don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail. but I'll bet they say the same about the 50% youth unemployed in Spain and Greece.

Not to agree, or disagree, Mike, but Clive has drawn you into illustrating what I at first objected to. Earlier, you more or less implied all immigrants are proto-terrorists. He, that all UK youth is lazy. You were presumably happy with the former, but appear uncomfortable with the latter. Yet, both lines of argument do the same thing: they extrapolate from the minority to apply their shortcomings to the majority. That is why I called for proportionality. Both, in their way, lack objective balance.

[Brian Kirby]

CliveH - 2013-01-12 9:19 AM...............................So I would suggest that, appalling as these incidents are, those wishing to live in this country should sign a contract stating that they will abide by our laws and not cite anysort of racial hatred on pain of instant deportation. Why put the cost on the taxpayer to hold them in prison and then "forget" to deport them?

 

Now that would mean the end of the human rights act and i would have no problem with that because it was an act with all the good intentions under the sun - but the reality is a criminals charter....................

I broadly agree, except for the above. I'm not pleading any detailed knowledge, but I don't think such a requirement, carefully phrased, would necessarily fall foul of the Human Rights Act.

 

If I have understood correctly, it is the use of blanketing terminology within UK legislation that has been the cause of most of the problems we have experienced when the HRA has been invoked. Including people, or their acts, within a broad class, so that the legislation can be claimed indiscriminate, or prejudiced, in its application, rather than the legislation being more specifically drafted.

 

My impression is that this is just another conflict between our legal tradition of leaving the judiciary broad scope to interpret the written law, and the much more prescriptive European approach of allowing only a narrow judicial interpretation of a more tightly drafted law. European judges, in general, can't make law, ours can. So, when judges trained in the European mould try cases brought under UK law, what they see appears unsatisfactorily vague and, where this touches aspects of human rights, the intention of the law can then be presented as discriminatory. So, before we signed up to the European act, we should have reviewed, and re-worked, our legislation along European lines, in recognition that it would be argued and judged in the European tradition, and not ours.

[Brian Kirby]

donna miller - 2013-01-12 11:32 AM......................So, all I ask is that those of you who haven't been, or aren't blighted and adversly affected by the mass immigration problem the UK is suffering from, have some empathy and consideration towards those that do. Being proud of your country and wanting to retain your cultural rights does not make you a racist, if it did, then the same racist label should surely be applied to those immigrants who come here and try to retain the cultural ways of their original country. Of course this country is different from others, we allow religious and cultural standards from immigrants to overule our own, and even change our laws to appease them, go to Dubai and demand that they change their laws to allow un-married couples to have sex in the hotels and see how far you get, go to Islamabad and seek planning permission to build a church.

 

Rant over, I have to go shopping.

Excellent post Donna, and definitely not a rant. Far too well reasoned for that. Most of us travel around, one way or another, and encounter areas where we wonder at what we find. If we travel far enough, we realise that what is true in one place, as you say, is untrue for another. We also realise that parts of Derby, for example, where faces are universally brown, the audible language not English, where English is not widely understood, where the shops sell different goods, where the clothes are Asian in style, and where the smells are Asian, are not typical of all of Derby, nor of every other city, or town, or village, or the wider countryside. Mind, even appreciating that it did cause a bit of a panic when our daughter asked, in a rather loud voice, when in Dartford, is this India Mummy?! :-)

 

So yes, we have a problem in some areas, but not in others, and we should be sympathetic to those who are directly affected by what can only be described as the alienisation of their patch. If those folk want to stay, they should be required to learn English. In part because it is discourteous for them not to have done so, in part because it leaves them a prey to exploitation, and in part because they are a risk to themselves and others in an emergency when they may be given instructions in a language they don't understand. It they would just do that (and stop wearing woven grey leather shoes, and suit jackets over their pyjamas :-)) they could begin to integrate, and wider acceptance could begin. Then, we could all begin to get to know each other, and realise we are not, after all, that fundamentally different.

 

Others have done this before them, so it can be done. However, it was always possible for us to have controlled who came, and on what terms. We did not, so the mistake is ours, not theirs. We spun the tales of the glories and wealth of Britain to impress them, and they believed us. Then we invited them to come, and they came. Bit rich to blame them for that, I think. Blame the politicians of the day, and look closely at which parties were instrumental in the decisions, keep that in mind when next voting, and tell anyone who comes doorstepping your opinion of their record. That, at least, we can do.

[Brian Kirby]

knight of the road - 2013-01-12 9:27 AM....................And before Brian Kirby jumps in and says we as a nation are mongrels and made up of foreigners, yes we are but those foreigners came here in manageable numbers not in the hordes that are trying to get here on a daily basis, particularly the Asian/Muslim contingent who have no intention of integrating with their host nation, ...................

Well then, I shall just have to jump in on something else, Malcolm! :-) Those foreigners did not always come here in manageable numbers, they sometimes came in large numbers, and sometimes with malice aforethought. For example, the Romans, the Danes, the Vikings, the Normans. Then again, there were the peaceable Flemish weavers, whose arrivals caused riots in Eastern England. There were also waves of Jews who fled Spain and Portugal in the C15. They settled large parts of east London, the traditional landing point for immigrants for centuries. The point was that their impacts were localised, and no-one else much got to hear about them. The frictions were the same, though.

 

It was only when large numbers of Asians were brought in to work the midlands mills, and later when large numbers of West Indians came to run London Transport and the NHS, that they became more generally noticed. The main reason for that was that they were not of European extraction, so immediately stood out as different. A pole can wear British clothes, and is indistinguishable from a native Briton in the street. If he speaks English well, he will remain so, even when you speak to him. A Pakistani, Indian, or West Indian, is a rather different matter. They are immediately different to look at. Allow that they came from countries where sanitary habits were different, social gestures were different, that their English was heavily accented, that their customs and religion were different, and that no-one warned them, or us, of those differences, and you get what we, and they, got. Prejudice, born of fear and resentment.

 

Someone commented that the West Indians have integrated pretty well. Well, yes, some have. But they did not do so immediately. I was taken by friends back in the 60s, to see friends of theirs somewhere in outer south east London. An ordinary Victorian end of terrace in what had become a run down area, where the houses were cheap and affordable, which is why they were there. The house had previously been rented out, it transpired by a British landlord, to newly arrived West Indian immigrants. The landlord had found that the attic ran down the row of houses, so had continued piling in the tenants including in the roof space. There was one toilet. The tenants who needed to relieve themselves in the night had no chance of getting to it, so they peed on the walls or on the ceiling below them. The neighbours became alarmed at the strange noises from above, and at the growing patches of damp on their ceilings, but were afraid of these new, black, neighbours, so called the police. The police called at the house in question and were suitably shocked at what they found. The house was compulsorily bought as a slum property by the council, and then sold on, as was. That was the house my friends friends had bought. They were renovating it. All plaster had been removed below about 3' up the walls, all ceilings had been taken down, and some new plaster and ceilings had been put back. To say the rest of the house was a bit 'niffy was an understatement - it made your eyes run! Now, whose fault was that?

 

Stories of that type abounded at the time, mainly expressing shock and horror at the uncivilised behaviour of this appalling, alien, hoard. I never saw the reality explained. They became the scapegoats for their own misery and abusive treatment. No one mentioned the role of their landlords in their predicament, or the fact that there was an acute housing shortage, that they lacked money to rent better property, and had no power to remonstrate because if they did, they were summarily evicted to sleep rough. It is from such beginnings that many of them have integrated: one might wonder why they have taken the trouble. Inevitably some have borne the resentment of such treatment. I have no idea if that resentment is reflected in the gang culture prevalent on certain estates, but it would not be entirely surprising, would it? That is just one small fraction of your Britain, so the picture is not quite as cosy as you portray. It is hugely variable, and the deprivation was by no means limited to the West Indians I have described. I worked for some years in Southwark, so have seen quite a bit of deprivation, native born and immigrant. The main connection with deprivation is poor education, either bred by the deprivation itself, or because of low intelligence. There are relatively few deprived people who are intelligent and well educated. Choose your genes well! :-)

[cerro]

WoW, at last a discussion Thank you 1footinthegrave for starting it you said just what I tried to say in my clumsy way. and Donners was so good I only wish I was as good with a pen I feel humbled. I can cross the arctic on snow shoes and live of the land I can find north any were in the world with out a compass but my writing skills are lacking somewhat but now its a discussion I sold my Garage business to an asian family and it opened my eyes as I spent time with them, I had an open mind before but now I would never trust them. One example they wanted to pay large amounts of cash on the side so father and two brothers are pulling large amounts of cash out of there pockets one at a time while my wife and son are counting it she went down to the bank to pay it in £10,000 short came back explaned it was short one of the brothers pulled out £10,000 Oh it must be this. They were pure Parkistan with no interest in the english way of life. What are we going to do when they open the doors to the probably three million Bulgarians and Romanians that have there bags packed ready to come in next year added to the what how many millions here now. we have got to stop it we are overcrowded and that causes problems Friends go on expeditions for six monthes living in tents on top of each other they come back hateing each other most of the time Why? and now I think they are talking about building houses on green belt we have no room.

[cerro]

Dartford, Brian have you been to Bradford that would open your eyes they even have a mosqe better than anything in Parkistan with large towers all waiting for the time not to far of when we are woken up at 5am with the wailing. there is a well known saying in yorkshire how many mosqe are there in Bradford Ans thousands because all front rooms is a mosqe to avoid paying councill tax dont know how true it is

[nightrider]

donna miller - 2013-01-12 11:32 AM

 

I'm going to make an observation here, it's a general one but one that bears relevence to the varying views being put forward.

Obviously there are members here that reside in differing parts of the country, and even those that may consider that they live in the same geographical region as another member, they live and move within totally different circumstances.

Firstly I'll use my own example, I was born and raised in Coventry, the early part of my life was spent in suburbs and villages where you would be hard pressed to see a non white face, later on when I moved to the inner city it became apparent that this was a whole new world where I was in very grave danger of becoming a minority. Areas of the city were virtually turned over to either West Indian or Pakistani/Indian communities. The West Indians integrated into society quite well, but younger members of that community made no-go areas for people like me, and the situation only escalated with pubs, clubs and centres becaming West Indian by name and by nature, whites were excluded without exception, this also happend with Pakistani communities.

Pakistani/ Indian immigrants split into the Sikh/Muslim factions and proceeded to build their own little nations within the city, the Sikhs however were the one that then, and even now make concerted effort to integrate, however the Muslims have never been forthcoming in that level of social integration.

Whilst living where I did, the problems associated with 'colonising' of immigrant communities was a problem that, to my mind, was something that played great importance in my views which were now very different from 5 years previous. I now understand that eastern European immigrants, especially Polish, are repeating the whole proceedure and adding to the problems within the city suburbs.

Now however, I live once again in a rural community in the valleys in South Wales, there are relatively few immigrant families, whether white or not, and whilst I still hold strong views on immigration problems, they do not affect me as such in my normal daily life.

 

And this is where I believe the differences of opinion are very often influenced by the level that personal interaction with largescale immigrant communities occurs.

 

Malc for instance, obviously lives close to pockets of these first, second or third generation immigrants that can very often cause continuous problems for other members of the community (regardless of colour before the racism crap is reeled out). And I fully understand his frustration and anger at the way British culture and way of life is being slowly (or not so slowly) eaten away because we/he has to conform to the religious and cultural ways of immigrants.

 

Other members however, (and I shall refrain from names as no doubt they will interpretet it as a 'personal' attack, and I can't be doing with the hassle) are fortunate enough to live away from the inner city areas where these problems are rife, I can say with some confidence that the more affluent villages where some of our members reside will not have whole roads or communities that consist of only Muslim families or Polish/Latvian families, their local shops will not cater predominantly in Polish or Indian foods therefore they will have difficulty in understanding the views of those who do have to live in those areas and with those problems, they will not see social housing being earmarked for immigrants or large families of immigrants being given housing ahead of English families that have been waiting years for suitable housing, they are probably retired or in jobs that are safe from cheap immigrant labour, whereas inner city families in low paid manual jobs live in fear of being laid off and replaced by a team of Polish labourors that save the firm 50 pence an hour.

They may notice the increased immigrant population on the weekly visit to town, but day to day contact does not have an influence.

To further confirm my above statements, my personal experience of isolated immigrant families living in communities is that they are far more likely and willing to integrate with their neighbours, but to use them as an example in a discussion and as a basis of my beliefs would be wrong as they would not be a true reflection of the immigration/integration discussion at hand.

 

Cerro, (from the original post) had his views on the problem (anybody who claims there is no problem is a fool) but other posters do not have the right to say his views are wrong or that he is foolish just because they differ from theirs. There are far too many posters on here who will dish out criticism to others and claim it is normal debating protocol, however, they will not afford you the same consideration or apply the same rules if you proceed to challenge their views, you will then become someone who is argumentative rather than someone offering opinion, you will become someone who seeks out confrontation because you hold an opinion of your own.

 

So, all I ask is that those of you who haven't been, or aren't blighted and adversly affected by the mass immigration problem the UK is suffering from, have some empathy and consideration towards those that do. Being proud of your country and wanting to retain your cultural rights does not make you a racist, if it did, then the same racist label should surely be applied to those immigrants who come here and try to retain the cultural ways of their original country. Of course this country is different from others, we allow religious and cultural standards from immigrants to overule our own, and even change our laws to appease them, go to Dubai and demand that they change their laws to allow un-married couples to have sex in the hotels and see how far you get, go to Islamabad and seek planning permission to build a church.

 

Rant over, I have to go shopping.

Hear hear Donna, you hit the nail right on the head.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Brian Kirby - 2013-01-12 2:54 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-12 1:58 PM..............Well we all know the answer to that, gangmasters preying on the vulnerable for the most part and paying very low bordering on slave wages, do your home work, but just another urban myth for the most part saying UK youngsters are lazy, do you really think they are all happy in the no hope situation many find themselves, even university graduates, grow up, don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail. but I'll bet they say the same about the 50% youth unemployed in Spain and Greece.

Not to agree, or disagree, Mike, but Clive has drawn you into illustrating what I at first objected to. Earlier, you more or less implied all immigrants are proto-terrorists. He, that all UK youth is lazy. You were presumably happy with the former, but appear uncomfortable with the latter. Yet, both lines of argument do the same thing: they extrapolate from the minority to apply their shortcomings to the majority. That is why I called for proportionality. Both, in their way, lack objective balance.

 

Here's' some balance, not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists in the last decade as they relate to the West have been Muslims, is that objective enough for you.

[RogerC]

A well written and level headed reply Donna.  It must be somewhat disconcerting to say the least for someone to find themselves 'isolated' by excessive immigration to your neighborhood/town/city.

 

Over the next decade or two I feel that the 'social face' of this country is going to change drastically.....and to the detriment of those of 'British' extraction.

 

PS.  To those inclined to pick on certain phrases please don't pick on the term 'British extraction'.  I know my history, that we are a nation of mongrels but that came about over a period of centuries not decades.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Ah yes, Bradford. Here's a snitch from Wiki.

 

"Like many major cities Bradford has been a destination for immigrants. In the 1840s Bradford's population was significantly increased by migrants from Ireland, particularly rural Mayo and Sligo, and by 1851 about 10% of the population were born in Ireland, the largest proportion in Yorkshire.

 

During the 1820s and 1830s there was immigration from Germany. Many were Jewish merchants and they became active in the life of the town. The Jewish community numbered about 100 families but was influential in the development of Bradford as a major exporter of woollen goods from their textile export houses mostly based in Little Germany and the civic life of Bradford. Jacob Behrens (1806–1889) exported woollen goods and his company developed into an international multi-million pound business.

 

To support the textile mills, a large manufacturing base grew up in the town providing textile machinery, and this led to diversification with different industries thriving side by side. The Jowett Motor Company founded in the early 20th century by Benjamin and William Jowett and Arthur V Lamb, manufactured cars and vans in Bradford for 50 years. After World War II migrants came from Poland and Ukraine and since the 1950s from Bangladesh, India and particularly Pakistan."

 

Bit more on the local population:

 

"As of the 2001 UK census, Bradford had a population of 293,277. There were 106,680 households in Bradford, and the population density was 4,560 inhabitants per square kilometre (11,820/sq mi). For every 100 females, there were 92.9 males. Bradford has the youngest, fastest growing population outside London.

 

The census showed that 69.3% (203,240) of Bradford's population was White, 1.9% (5,572) Mixed Race, 26.1% (76,545) Asian, 1.3% (3,812) Black and 1.4% (4,105) from other races. 22.1% of the population are of British Asian origin, this percentage being part of the 26.1% above, the third highest percentage of South Asians in a single settlement in England and Wales behind the city of Leicester (29.9%) and the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. Nearly half of all Asians living in Yorkshire and the Humber live in Bradford, with the central wards of Bradford Moor, City, Little Horton, Manningham and Toller having large majority Asian populations, whereas outlying wards of Bradford such as Thornton and Allerton, Idle and Thackley, Eccleshill, Wibsey, Wyke, Clayton, Wrose, Tong and Royds have predominantly white populations.

 

The ONS Regional Trends report, published in June 2009, showed that some parts of Bradford suffer from the highest levels of deprivation in the country, while other areas of Bradford are some of the least deprived in the country. Infant mortality is double the national average, and life expectancy is slightly lower than in other parts of the district. A 2012 survey claimed that residents of Bradford had more sex than any other city in the UK."

 

But, you say you are from Ayr. What's the situation in Ayr?

 

Haven't been to Bradford, but have to Tower Hamlets, which is definitely highly populated by immigrants.

 

But then, look at the figures. The main group of Asian migrants came in the 1950s, to work in the mills. Unsurprisingly, a high proportion of today's Asian population is British Born. They seem to have stuck where they landed. I assume the collapse of the mills left many unemployed, with relatively poor English, and ill equipped to compete with the native population for whatever jobs were going. However, it seem one could live the other side of town and not feel one is in the Punjab.

 

We are not sinking in a sea of immigrants, but some areas have too many for peaceful cohesion. They need to spread themselves around more, but the hostility they get from the likes of the NF hardly encourages them to do so. Safety in numbers. Antony disputed my use of the term ghettos in an earlier post in relation to his experience of Huddersfield, but it seem the term might fairly be applied to Bradford. So, what should we do? Those you cite first came 60 years ago, and many of their community have known no home but Britain.

 

Some think the solution is to leave the EU, so that we can close our borders. However, our borders were opened by our politicians, not by the immigrants. They did this to keep their political supporters, in this case the now bankrupt mill owners, happy. We can't make them disappear, so we must encourage them to integrate in their own interests. Not easy, but is is where successive governments have left us.

 

However, comparatively, the UK is not that badly afflicted. Many who inhabit this forum spend lengthy periods in Spain. They complain of the immigrants at home, but not of those in Spain. Yet, Spain has a higher proportion of immigrants overall than the UK (14%), and also a higher proportion of non-EU immigrants (8.9). Perhaps they are invisible? Of all the EU states, Austria has the largest immigrant population, at just over 15%, 9.1% non EU. By contrast, the UK is 11.3% immigrant, 7.7% non-EU.

 

I'm not arguing that any proportion is right, or acceptable, or that there is not a problem, just pointing out that the UK is fairly typical, and by no means worst off. The EU as a whole is rich, and the go-getters from other countries can see that. They just follow the money, and take enormous risks to get here. And please, don't swallow that hogwash that they only come for the handouts. I don't think they are that daft. They mainly come to lead better lives than they have at home, or to work and send money home.

 

It is interesting, and much more of a problem IMO, that our native population is not getting the jobs the immigrants get, but I have no idea why that is the case. Many reasons are advanced, but few seem to stack up when examined. It may just be that they are more driven and incentivised (you could say desperate) than are we, so will take whatever is going. That seems to have been the case when the West Indians came over, they did the jobs the Brits didn't want, while there was still unemployment in Britain.

 

Perhaps it is our welfare system that is too indiscriminate in who it rewards? It is a good thing at heart, but it does seem to have become a way for governments to gain political kudos by claiming to have "created" jobs and reduced unemployment. What of income supplement, that merely subsidises low paying employers to go on paying low wages? Barking!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

RogerC - 2013-01-12 6:08 PMA well written and level headed reply Donna.  It must be somewhat disconcerting to say the least for someone to find themselves 'isolated' by excessive immigration to your neighborhood/town/city.

 

Over the next decade or two I feel that the 'social face' of this country is going to change drastically.....and to the detriment of those of 'British' extraction.

 

PS.  To those inclined to pick on certain phrases please don't pick on the term 'British extraction'.  I know my history, that we are a nation of mongrels but that came about over a period of centuries not decades.

And you've hit the nail on the head, in the last decade or so it has been all too much and too fast,this does not give existing communities time to adjust. My sister-in-law has just moved out of the home at the age of 78 where she has lived all of her life, after taking over the home she was born in from her parents that she has just sold, say what you liike BUT she was the last White Brummie in the entire road of about approx 120 houses that little by little were bought by incomers, in latter years she said more and more she felt like an alien, and when she tried to make conversation she was treated with disdain and suspicion she often told us, which considering she knew nothing else, but Pretoria Road, and Bordesley Green, Birmingham, was very sad, and this pattern is repeated time and time again.

[John 47]

Typical liberal nonsense, no doubt you don't live in Birmingham, Leicester, Peterborough,Bradford, Slough London, go try it and see how it is for ordinary British people, and ask them how they feel about it, the ones that are left there that is.

 

As for plumbers and plasterers, what exactly is wrong with training our own young unemployed millions of whom are on the dole., or is that too simple plus I don't think the average Romanian Gypsies well be coming to call, more likely to put their kids on the streets begging as is already the case in major cities...

 

Church bells, well that does not even deserve a reply, but kind of tells where your coming from, but I bet your life it's not next to a mosque.

,

 

So inconvenient facts come under the heading of typical liberal nonsense, do they?

 

I have lived in Slough as it happens and my eldest son and his partner live in Streatham. I have spent many years visiting Middle Eastern countries and I find the call from the mosque no more annoying than others find church bells. And I would be very interested to know why you think one religious call to prayer should be banned and not another.

 

The plumbers and plasterers comment was tongue in cheek but in answer to your question, there is nothing wrong with training our youngsters to do these jobs and if they are as hardworking as those from other parts of the EU then they will do well. But if the EU workers are more diligent than our own then they will get and deserve to get the jobs. I am fed up with others saying things like "they come over and take our jobs". No they don't. - they get jobs that others either don't want or can't be bothered to put the effort into. Nobody deserves a free ride - and I don't care whether they were born in this country or not.

[cerro]

Dont know where you got Ayr from Brian, maybe Ayrshire. I am from the Barnsley/Wakefield area of Yorkshire but I always kept my boats up here and it was a bind traveling up there from Yokshire to sail, so when we retired we moved up here.And I had been going to Scotland since the mid 60s I love scotland as it has a silence that no other place has Patagonia is a close second but you can actualy hear the silence up here, when high up and its beautiful

[nightrider]

It isn't that the Poles have a better work ethic than us it is purely and simply that they can earn more money here than in their own country, work that our people turn down because it is slave wages.

Emloyers over here have our workers over a barrel by saying take it or leave it knowing full well that a Polish immigrant desperate for work will fill the vacancy. We live in a broken society caused by greedy bankers and various other fanancial institutions.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2013-01-12 6:27 PM

 

However, comparatively, the UK is not that badly afflicted. Many who inhabit this forum spend lengthy periods in Spain. They complain of the immigrants at home, but not of those in Spain. Yet, Spain has a higher proportion of immigrants overall than the UK (14%), and also a higher proportion of non-EU immigrants (8.9). Perhaps they are invisible? Of all the EU states, Austria has the largest immigrant population, at just over 15%, 9.1% non EU. By contrast, the UK is 11.3% immigrant, 7.7% non-EU.

/QUOTE]

 

Spain is a huge country so can accommodate immigrants easier without whole areas being taken over............I've not seen any places that have been dominated by one group of immigrants as they have in the UK 8-)

 

Had a meal out yesterday ;-).....................the waitress was Polish............If it wasn't for the sun I'd think I was in Boston :D

[donna miller]

John 47 - 2013-01-12 10:33 PM

 

 

 

 

. And I would be very interested to know why you think one religious call to prayer should be banned and not another.

 

.

 

John, I don't think KOTR was saying they should be banned, however, there is a vast difference between church bells on a Sunday morning and a call to prayer from a mosque 5 times a day every day.

You say you have travelled to several countries where the Muslim call to prayer has occurred, well I'm sure we all have, but let's not forget, that is usually only for a few weeks or so whilst on holiday, but what Malc asked is whether you actually lived near to or next to a Mosque and endured it every day of your life. I have and believe me it is not pleasant (especially the first call around 5am some days, the times are not fixed, that's why the call is made).

The same Mosque complained to the council that christmas decorations and displays that were put up every year in the road I lived in, were offensive to their religion and demanded they be taken down, at first the council refused but I now have been informed the lights are no longer put up, this was in the Foleshill area of Coventry if you would like to verify this. What outcome do you think the white christian sector would have received if they complained about the Mosque's activities and tried to have them banned, the local residents stated that if one section could be offended by the actions of another religion, then that religion (christian) had every right to demand the same privelige. would YOU have classed them as racist? The local paper did!!!

 

Again, personal experience plays a large part of peoples' views, my niece attended a large school in Coventry, a couple of years ago my Brother recieved a letter from the school informing him that as from (whatever date), the school would be serving halal meat in the canteen, this was to conform to the religious practices of the Muslim population within the school, despite the objections from parents over their disgust concerning the halal method of killing animals, the school continued with the policy as it claimed some muslim parents would not accept halal meat that was prepared alongside our own (humanely) slaughtered meat.

Another example from personal experience, 25ish years ago, we applied for a place at the local catholic school for my daughter, the application was turned down 3 times because she had not recieved her communion (her choice), however there were at least a dozen Muslims who were accepted the same term. Please explain the justification in that!!

 

So in reality, I don't believe anyone on here actually has a problem with the integration of cultures and beliefs of immigrants from wherever the originate, whether it be Asia or Eastern Europe, but what they (and I) strongly object to, is the erosion of our own culture and the removal of our own traditions to appease others, we could not demand change in any other country, but readily accept and even encourage it here.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

John 47 - 2013-01-12 10:33 PM

 

Typical liberal nonsense, no doubt you don't live in Birmingham, Leicester, Peterborough,Bradford, Slough London, go try it and see how it is for ordinary British people, and ask them how they feel about it, the ones that are left there that is.

 

As for plumbers and plasterers, what exactly is wrong with training our own young unemployed millions of whom are on the dole., or is that too simple plus I don't think the average Romanian Gypsies well be coming to call, more likely to put their kids on the streets begging as is already the case in major cities...

 

Church bells, well that does not even deserve a reply, but kind of tells where your coming from, but I bet your life it's not next to a mosque.

,

 

So inconvenient facts come under the heading of typical liberal nonsense, do they?

 

And I would be very interested to know why you think one religious call to prayer should be banned and not another.

 

.

 

Because the last time I looked this is NOT a Muslim country, and church bells in case you have not noticed have been a part of the Christian way of life, and a part of the UK culture and landscape for hundreds of years, a way of life being eroded on a daily basis not helped by people like you, and that's what the majority ( mainly silent as yet for fear of branded racist ) even though Muslims and Islam is not a race, we strongly object to our country being changed before our eyes.

 

Have a read through the other posters, not many of us embrace the multicultural cesspit the UK has and is fast becoming, apart it seems from you.

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-12 5:55 PM.................Here's' some balance, not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists in the last decade as they relate to the West have been Muslims, is that objective enough for you.

No, although it is factually accurate. IMO, it is a branch of chop-logic: what you get when you say all pillar boxes are red, therefore all red boxes are pillar boxes. It only serves to illustrate the broad area from which the threat comes, but not the scale of the risk. For example, had there been only one such event over the past decade, your statement would be equally true, but it wouldn't tell us much. I don't deny that there is a threat, and that attempts are still being made but, as with IRA terrorism before, we just have to live with that threat until it subsides, and bringing those who represent the threat to accept that we represent no threat to them, and that they have nothing to gain from attacking us, will take a long time, as with the IRA. Clearly you don't like it, and neither do I, but in practical terms, that is where we are. If you know, realistically, what can be done to eliminate that threat, you should write to Dave and tell him. Otherwise, you'll have to live with it, just like the rest of us. Peeving, isn't it?

[Brian Kirby]

cerro - 2013-01-12 11:59 PM

 

Dont know where you got Ayr from Brian, maybe Ayrshire. I am from the Barnsley/Wakefield area of Yorkshire but I always kept my boats up here and it was a bind traveling up there from Yokshire to sail, so when we retired we moved up here.And I had been going to Scotland since the mid 60s I love scotland as it has a silence that no other place has Patagonia is a close second but you can actualy hear the silence up here, when high up and its beautiful

Sorry Gordon, I was sure I had read Ayr in your profile as your location. My mistake, Ayrshire it is. Even so, high levels of immigrants in Ayrshire? I was responding to that idea, because that was where you had said you were based. So, I wondered how much of what you were saying was based on personal experience, and how much was from newspaper reports. If you weer referring to the Barnsley/Wakefield areas, then yes, I understand. However, the problem is in pockets here and there, it does not extend in the same way to the whole country.

[Brian Kirby]

knight of the road - 2013-01-13 1:54 AM

 

It isn't that the Poles have a better work ethic than us it is purely and simply that they can earn more money here than in their own country, work that our people turn down because it is slave wages.

Emloyers over here have our workers over a barrel by saying take it or leave it knowing full well that a Polish immigrant desperate for work will fill the vacancy. We live in a broken society caused by greedy bankers and various other fanancial institutions.

But there you go, Malcolm, what I said, innit? :-) We have done it to ourselves, so why blame the immigrants?

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Brian Kirby - 2013-01-13 10:16 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-12 5:55 PM.................Here's' some balance, not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists in the last decade as they relate to the West have been Muslims, is that objective enough for you.

No, although it is factually accurate. IMO, it is a branch of chop-logic: what you get when you say all pillar boxes are red, therefore all red boxes are pillar boxes. It only serves to illustrate the broad area from which the threat comes, but not the scale of the risk. For example, had there been only one such event over the past decade, your statement would be equally true, but it wouldn't tell us much. I don't deny that there is a threat, and that attempts are still being made but, as with IRA terrorism before, we just have to live with that threat until it subsides, and bringing those who represent the threat to accept that we represent no threat to them, and that they have nothing to gain from attacking us, will take a long time, as with the IRA. Clearly you don't like it, and neither do I, but in practical terms, that is where we are. If you know, realistically, what can be done to eliminate that threat, you should write to Dave and tell him. Otherwise, you'll have to live with it, just like the rest of us. Peeving, isn't it?

 

I did, I said fast track anyone one involved in terrorism back to their country of origin, if of UK nationality then bring back the death penalty for treason, or murders as the result of terrorist acts, as yet I've had no reply, so I will be voting UKIP at the next election, having wasted all my life voting for the other lots. ;-)

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2013-01-13 10:16 AM

 

IMO, it is a branch of chop-logic:

 

i hope thats not a Pork chop Brian..........Or your'll have the muslim brotherhood after you :D

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

pelmetman - 2013-01-13 11:24 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2013-01-13 10:16 AM

 

IMO, it is a branch of chop-logic:

 

i hope thats not a Pork chop Brian..........Or your'll have the muslim brotherhood after you :D

 

The discovery of a pig's head outside a mosque in Berkshire prompts a warning from police that hate crime "will not be tolerated" not sure if a PORK chop would be a lesser "hate crime"