Islamic terrorism in Mali

[RogerC]

John 47 - 2013-01-30 4:15 PM

RogerC - 2013-01-30 3:15 PM As far as the governments of the world are concerned the 'global terrorism threat' is based in Islam, the Muslim world.  The other areas you mention are primarily 'regional' and therefore do not make the world 'shudder'.  

Oh, that's alright then - I'm sure the victims will be very relieved!PS I was not intending to include all forms of terrorism in one debate; I was simply asking why one particular contributor seems to blame all the world's ills on not only one group of terrorists but millions of innocent people as well.

 

John I obviously don't know how old or how well traveled you are so it is difficult to understand if you are speaking from aged knowledge or what you have read.

 

Your 'Oh, that's alright then - I'm sure the victims will be very relieved!' comment is somewhat provocative which is what, I presume you intended.

 

In my travels I have worked in well over 50% of the worlds countries and the ones I felt most 'unsafe' in were predominantly Muslim.  The attitude of the a high proportion of the populace in those countries is generally one of antipathy verging on hatred (instilled in the underclass by mad Mullahs/Madrassas etc) towards Westerners.  There were many countries where it was so unsafe Westerners needed 'minders' to go out of their hotel and go about their business.  In Kabul the Taliban had no problem  hitting the city with 'dumb' rockets, sending in suicide bombers and exploding vehicle based IED with no regard as to whom they killed.  If it was someone from the ISAF then for them it was a victory.  If it was some local Afghans it was still justified as an attack on the Government.

 

Just take a look at the list of 26 countries below and you'll see that in all but 5 of them Muslims are one of the main religious groups involved.  The list is a little outdated but it clearly illustrates the overarching involvement of Muslims in world terrorism and conflict.

 

Country	Main religiousgroups involved	Type of conflict
Afghanistan	Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims	Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in part of the country. The fighting continues.
Bosnia	Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims	Fragile peace is holding, due to the presence of peacekeepers.2
Côte d'Ivoire	Muslims, Indigenous, Christian	Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5 A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.
Cyprus	Christians & Muslims	The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks(Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.
East Timor	Christians & Muslims	A Roman Catholic country. About 30% of the  population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence,many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army andarmy-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide andreligious cleansing. The situation is now stable.
India	Animists, Christians, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs	Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life. Christians are regularly attacked in Orissa province by militant Hindu extremists.
Indonesia, province of Ambon	Christians & Muslims	After centuries of relative peace, conflictsbetween Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province ofIndonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.
Indonesia, province of Halmahera	Christians & Muslims	30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out;homes and churches destroyed.
Iraq	Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces	By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily improving since the coalition forces have withdrawn from the cities.
Kashmir	Hindus & Muslims	A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. Theavailability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them aredestabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989. A plebescite would be the obvious solution, except that one side has always refused to permit one.
Kosovo	Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims	Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidenceof past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly SerbianOrthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story
Kurdistan	Christians, Muslims	Periodic assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, &Assyrian Orthodox).
Macedonia	Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims	Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians)engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who areprimarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians during the 1990s. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.
Middle East	Jews, Muslims, & Christians	The peace process between Israel and Palestinesuffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew who died.  Majorstrife broke out in 2000-SEP. Flareups repeat. No resolution appears possible.
Nigeria	Christians, Animists, & Muslims	Yourubas and Christians in the south of thecountry are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towardsdemocracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. Moredetails
Northern Ireland	Protestants, Catholics	After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30years. A ceasefire is holding.
Pakistan	Suni & Shi'ite Muslims	Low level mutual attacks, overshadowed by Taliban insurrectionists.
Philippines	Christians & Muslims	A low level conflict between the mainly Christiancentral government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries. Moredetails
Russia, Chechnya	Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims	The Russian army attacked the breakawayregion. Manyatrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: "In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to 'blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia'." 7
Somalia	Wahhabi and Sufi Muslims	Sufi Muslims -- a tolerant moderate tradition of Islam are fighting the Shabab who follow the Wahhabi tradition of Islam in a continuing conflict.
South Africa	Animists & "Witches"	Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic,are murdered each year.
Sri Lanka	Buddhists & Hindus	Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in awar aimed at dividing the island and creating a homeland for themselves. Conflict had been underway since 1983 with the Sinhalese Buddhist majority (70%). Over a hundred thousand people have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation. By 2009 the Tamil uprising was crushed by the government.
Sudan	Animists, Christians & Muslims	Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. 3 Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants. 8
Thailand	Buddhists & Muslims	Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand -- a country that is 95% Buddhist.
Tibet	Buddhists & Communists	Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's.Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues. *
Uganda	Animists, Christians, & Muslims	Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year. 6

"Intolerance breeds injustice. Injustice invariably leads torebellion and retaliation, and these will lead to escalation on thepart of both making reconciliation almost impossible. It would appearthat during times of stress, despair and frustration, people becomeincreasingly irrational, and they do things which they never thinkthey are capable of. And so we see hideous brutality perpetrated bythe most gentle people."

"Once started religious strife has a tendency to go on andon, to become permanent feuds. Today we see such intractableinter-religious wars between Jews and Muslims andChristians in Palestine, Hindus and Muslims in South Asia and in manyother places. Attempts to bring about peace have failed again andagain. Always the extremist elements invoking past injustices,imagined or real, will succeed in torpedoing the peace efforts andbringing about another bout of hostility." Datuk Seri DrMahathir Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, addressing the WorldEvangelical Fellowship on 2001-MAY-4.

 

 

When the world in which you live is dominated by Sharia law I think you might feel somewhat differently.

[antony1969]

Why bother trying to enlighten someone like John who seems to me to live in a Hans Christian Andersen fairytale world . Waste of time .

[nightrider]

There are some people on here who are quite affable to Muslims/Asians fair enough that is your right but I am not, I am of the opinion that they are the most barbaric race of people on this earth, Japanese cruelty pales into insignificance in comparison, just look at the appalling cruelty they mete out to each other? public stoning, hanging, blinding beheading and shooting and the throwing of acid into womens faces admittedly not all of them are terrorists or do the things mentioned above but they are all for it, make no mistake we are at war with these people and it is going to go on for one hell of a long time, John 47 comes across as a Muslim lover and says he has Muslim friends, what would happen if he was to make an advance against the daughter of one of his Muslim friends? she would probably end up dead in an honour killing and he might end up with his throat cut and his balls in his mouth.

[RogerC]

knight of the road - 2013-01-30 9:41 PMThere are some people on here who are quite affable to Muslims/Asians fair enough that is your right but I am not, I am of the opinion that they are the most barbaric race of people on this earth, Japanese cruelty pales into insignificance in comparison, just look at the appalling cruelty they mete out to each other? public stoning, hanging, blinding beheading and shooting and the throwing of acid into womens faces admittedly not all of them are terrorists or do the things mentioned above but they are all for it, make no mistake we are at war with these people and it is going to go on for one hell of a long time, John 47 comes across as a Muslim lover and says he has Muslim friends, what would happen if he was to make an advance against the daughter of one of his Muslim friends? she would probably end up dead in an honour killing and he might end up with his throat cut and his balls in his mouth.

 

A colleague of mine in Kabul had exactly that 'promise' made to him.  He was told if he was seen speaking to an Afghan/non white woman (albeit if she was dressed in Western style or not) he would have the pleasure of watching her killed then he would be 'slowly killed'.......all because he was seen by an extremist talking to a 'non white' woman in a club in the city.   Nice people?  I think not.

 

[John 47]

RogerC - 2013-01-30 9:33 PMJohn I obviously don't know how old or how well traveled you are so it is difficult to understand if you are speaking from aged knowledge or what you have read.

 

Your 'Oh, that's alright then - I'm sure the victims will be very relieved!' comment is somewhat provocative which is what, I presume you intended.

I am 65 and I have spent many years in the Middle East and living among Muslims in the UK. I am an atheist so have no particular axe to grind when it comes to Islam. I do, however, have a very acute radar when it comes to fairness and a lot of comments on here - especially but not exclusively from one footinthegrave - are totally unfair and unreasonable when it comes to Muslims. I have a marked hatred of Muslim extremists who kill indiscriminately; I have a marked hatred of anybody else who kills indiscriminately. I also have a marked dislike of people who claim that all the fault lays in one community. My comment in response to your post was to show that it matters not a jot to the victims whether their murderers are recognised as global terrorists or regional terrorists. All, in my view, are as bad as each other. But when I see others trying to claim that some deaths are more significant than others or when I see comments from onefootinthegrave and his acolytes that all Muslims are to be hated because some Muslims are terrorists then I cannot just let that nonsense pass.And, having read through some of the absolute nonsense on this thread I have to ask how many of the bigots who have responded actually have contact with Muslims and how many of them simply get their information from the rabid press. All that stuff about ending up with my balls in my mouth makes me think that too many people on here are reading fiction instead of getting out there in the real world and actually talking to the average Muslim.

[CliveH]

Having had a similar work experience to John - I would say, from my experience - he is correct.

 

What is remarkable is that the Muslim Extremists that I too "hate" such that I want action taken against them, sound remarkably like those on here who advocate a blanket hatred of all things of one religion or another.

 

And this is where i have difficulty with the more strident voices on here - because intolerance of "The West" is the problem we have with Muslim extremists and intolerance of Muslims by some in "The West" is simply the other side of the same coin.

 

Sometimes our leaders in the West well and truly shoot themselves in the foot. Blair with his weapons of mass destruction dodgy dossiers that we were told was hard evidence but that turned out to be an old PhD thesis written years before and had actually been discounted by the "real hard evidence" - Dr David Kelly paid the ultimate price for pointing out our governments lies.

 

Then we had George W Bush - going round the US winding up the fundamentalist Chriistians in the backwoods of America by saying that it was Americas "Christian Duty" to get revenge for 9/11. All in the name of getting votes. To even moderate Muslims, Blair's governments lies about WMD's and Bush's call for some sort of new Christian Crusades was hard to understand.

 

To the Muslim extremists it was all the justification they needed to peddle the vitriol and bile that drives their hatred of all things Western.

 

Where this latest action in Mali seems to be better organised is that the African Nations affected and potentially affected asked for help. The true nature of the extremists by way of amputations, beatings and killings of the indigenous Muslims who had been used to a very relaxed and laid back form of Islam, shocked the Mali population.

 

So here, the French, with the backing of other nations are helping a moderate Muslim nation deal with an extremist Muslim problem.

 

At last! - a step in the right direction, I feel.

 

The very wrong "direction" is to label everyone the same, to tar a whole nation or religion with that "same brush". The extremists do that.

 

We will get nowhere feeding a similar hatred and doing the same.

 

 

 

[John 47]

Well said, Clive. When I started this thread I was genuinely unsure as to whether we were doing the right thing by going into Mali but I think I am tending to lean towards the "yes" camp now. I can see no way to contain (maybe not defeat) the extremists other than by getting the moderates on our side and if we ignore pleas for help from moderates then we are leaving them open to the extremists to convert to their warped view of the religion. A people that feels it has been deserted is ripe fodder for extremists.

 

Having said that, I doubt that this current action will have any lasting effect on the terrorists themselves. As Roger said earlier on, they will melt into the countryside and emerge after we have gone (or maybe in some other country). But at least at that point the locals will know what they are in for and will be on their guard. Progress in such matters is always a succession of small steps.

[CliveH]

Yes - it is small steps overall in the big scheme of things.

 

But the extremists have done enormous damage to their twisted cause by their actions in Mali. These atrocities against the population have been noted across the Muslim World.

 

Same with that brave 14 year old girl that was shot in the head in Pakistan by extremists simply because she wanted an education.

 

The fact that we here in the UK - a Western Nation - stepped in and helped her was not only the correct humanitarian thing to do - it was also a statement that we have no hatred of Muslims per se.

 

But we do object to and will act against extremist violence.

 

It is these actions that will have the greatest positive affect on the ability of the extremists to influence other Muslims.

 

Tarring all Muslims with the same brush rather than helping those on the receiving end of extremism is not a sensible way to go.

 

As the extremists lose the backing of the moderates - the extremists seem to start abusing those very populations in the typical mind-set of the dictatorial bully. It may work in the short term but in the end such tactics will fail.

 

As for the extremists running off and melting into the countryside. Fine! - as long as they are kept away from the populations they want to torture main and kill that is advantage number one.

 

Advantage number two is that their being away from other people makes it easier for our Drones to deal with them.

 

"PESHAWAR: A US drone attack has killed a senior al Qaeda commander in the latest blow to the militant group that has been targeted in many similar attacks, according to tribal sources.

Abu Zaid was killed in the drone strike on a hideout in North Waziristan tribal agency early on Thursday, sources said. Zaid had just moved to the hideout a few days ago, they said. Security officials based in North Waziristan said they were aware of the death of a senior al Qaeda commander but could not confirm his identity or rank.

Zaid replaced Abu Yahya al Libi as one of al Qaeda’s most powerful figures in June after the later was killed by a US drone strike. Ten others were also killed in that attack."

 

and:-

 

"The UK’s drone fleet in Afghanistan is small compared with that of the US – Britain will shortly double its number of Reapers from five to ten aircraft.

 

Yet British-piloted aircraft launched a high proportion of the total missiles fired from drones."

 

 

[John 47]

CliveH - 2013-01-31 9:04 AM

 

Yes - it is small steps overall in the big scheme of things.

 

But the extremists have done enormous damage to their twisted cause by their actions in Mali. These atrocities against the population have been noted across the Muslim World.

 

Same with that brave 14 year old girl that was shot in the head in Pakistan by extremists simply because she wanted an education.

 

The fact that we here in the UK - a Western Nation - stepped in and helped her was not only the correct humanitarian thing to do - it was also a statement that we have no hatred of Muslims per se.

 

But we do object to and will act against extremist violence.

 

It is these actions that will have the greatest positive affect on the ability of the extremists to influence other Muslims.

 

Tarring all Muslims with the same brush rather than helping those on the receiving end of extremism is not a sensible way to go.

 

As the extremists lose the backing of the moderates - the extremists seem to start abusing those very populations in the typical mind-set of the dictatorial bully. It may work in the short term but in the end such tactics will fail.

 

As for the extremists running off and melting into the countryside. Fine! - as long as they are kept away from the populations they want to torture main and kill that is advantage number one.

 

Advantage number two is that their being away from other people makes it easier for our Drones to deal with them.

 

"PESHAWAR: A US drone attack has killed a senior al Qaeda commander in the latest blow to the militant group that has been targeted in many similar attacks, according to tribal sources.

Abu Zaid was killed in the drone strike on a hideout in North Waziristan tribal agency early on Thursday, sources said. Zaid had just moved to the hideout a few days ago, they said. Security officials based in North Waziristan said they were aware of the death of a senior al Qaeda commander but could not confirm his identity or rank.

Zaid replaced Abu Yahya al Libi as one of al Qaeda’s most powerful figures in June after the later was killed by a US drone strike. Ten others were also killed in that attack."

 

and:-

 

"The UK’s drone fleet in Afghanistan is small compared with that of the US – Britain will shortly double its number of Reapers from five to ten aircraft.

 

Yet British-piloted aircraft launched a high proportion of the total missiles fired from drones."

 

 

Careful now Clive or someone will step in and acuse us of being the same person! :-D

 

On a serious note, I accept your point about isolating the extremists making it easier to eliminate them but you have to be careful not to go too far. The majority population in Mali might detest the terrorists who have ruled them for over a year but if they see us wiping out whole groups of people then some of them might be tempted to think that the solution is no better than the disease. It is a fine line to tread and I don't pretend to know how to get it right. We just have to hope, I guess.

[CliveH]

:-D :-D

 

Again i agree we have to be careful. As I understand it our armed forces take great care to avoid injuring innocent bystanders.

 

Shame those that detonate bombs in public places do not have the same moral compass. And here i would include home grown extremists like the IRA and the Basque Separatists in Spain etc.

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

 

Kasim Hafeez, a revealing insight of a British Muslim mindset, at least he has come to another view now, so perhaps there is a very faint glimmer of hope, but he says amongst other things..........

 

" I never actually gave a real damn about Palestine, I was just obsessed with hating Israel”, said 28 year-old British-born Muslim Kasim Hafeez

 

Of Pakistani descent, he was raised in an environment where he was taught that "Jews control the world, and Israel is at fault for just about everything". and like other young Muslims in the United Kingdom, he embraced the teachings of radical Islam and internalized its visceral hatred for Israel.

 

Growing up in a home where his father praised Adolf Hitler as a "brilliant man" whose only shortcoming was that he "didn't kill enough Jews"

 

He remembered that while most Muslims in the United Kingdom "faked" their condemnations of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the United States, the great majority of them were exceptionally pleased with the results "

 

Hafeez says he was further radicalized while at university, and that his hatred for Israel and Jews became an “obsession.” He often attended rallies in London where speakers called for Israel’s destruction and where many in the crowd waved Hamas and Hezbollah flags. He says he intimidated Jews at university and believed in violent jihad. :-( :-(

 

The question that makes me and many others so uneasy is how many have his previous views,that as they say is the 65 million dollar question, we simply do not know. At least you know mine :D

[John 47]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 11:48 AM

 

 

Kasim Hafeez, a revealing insight of a British Muslim mindset, at least he has come to another view now, so perhaps there is a very faint glimmer of hope, but he says amongst other things..........

 

" I never actually gave a real damn about Palestine, I was just obsessed with hating Israel”, said 28 year-old British-born Muslim Kasim Hafeez

 

Of Pakistani descent, he was raised in an environment where he was taught that "Jews control the world, and Israel is at fault for just about everything". and like other young Muslims in the United Kingdom, he embraced the teachings of radical Islam and internalized its visceral hatred for Israel.

 

Growing up in a home where his father praised Adolf Hitler as a "brilliant man" whose only shortcoming was that he "didn't kill enough Jews"

 

He remembered that while most Muslims in the United Kingdom "faked" their condemnations of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the United States, the great majority of them were exceptionally pleased with the results "

 

Hafeez says he was further radicalized while at university, and that his hatred for Israel and Jews became an “obsession.” He often attended rallies in London where speakers called for Israel’s destruction and where many in the crowd waved Hamas and Hezbollah flags. He says he intimidated Jews at university and believed in violent jihad. :-( :-(

 

The question that makes me and many others so uneasy is how many have his previous views,that as they say is the 65 million dollar question, we simply do not know. At least you know mine :D

 

True - which is why I am a great believer in free speech - so that you can know (as far as it is possible to know) what others are thinking. But, as you point out, he saw the light and people like him need to be encouraged rather than vilified. We certainly won't get anywhere unless we listen to people like him and welcome them into the civilised fold. After all, this was the way that we came to stop most of the violence in Northern Ireland. Martin McGuiness has a very dubious past but there is no doubt that the future of peace in the province is very much in his hands.

[CliveH]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 11:48 AM

 

 

Kasim Hafeez, a revealing insight of a British Muslim mindset, at least he has come to another view now, so perhaps there is a very faint glimmer of hope, but he says amongst other things..........

 

" I never actually gave a real damn about Palestine, I was just obsessed with hating Israel”, said 28 year-old British-born Muslim Kasim Hafeez

 

Of Pakistani descent, he was raised in an environment where he was taught that "Jews control the world, and Israel is at fault for just about everything". and like other young Muslims in the United Kingdom, he embraced the teachings of radical Islam and internalized its visceral hatred for Israel.

 

Growing up in a home where his father praised Adolf Hitler as a "brilliant man" whose only shortcoming was that he "didn't kill enough Jews"

 

He remembered that while most Muslims in the United Kingdom "faked" their condemnations of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the United States, the great majority of them were exceptionally pleased with the results "

 

Hafeez says he was further radicalized while at university, and that his hatred for Israel and Jews became an “obsession.” He often attended rallies in London where speakers called for Israel’s destruction and where many in the crowd waved Hamas and Hezbollah flags. He says he intimidated Jews at university and believed in violent jihad. :-( :-(

 

The question that makes me and many others so uneasy is how many have his previous views,that as they say is the 65 million dollar question, we simply do not know. At least you know mine :D

 

I agree that this is a very worrying trend. Made infinitely worse by the fact that this particular individual is effectively biting the hand that feeds him by his acting this way in country that is not his own.

 

The mad mullahs generally are very badly educated individuals that have only one message. And I agree 1foot - we do need to do something about this.

 

But then I read about some of the antics of the BNP, and the factions in Northern Ireland re hatred etc and I think "here we go again".

 

:-S

[RogerC]

To try and illustrate/explain the outpouring of concern/anger against the Muslim world the items below take it to 'street level' in an attempt to illustrate that it is from the 'ground up' that acceptable standards of behavior seem not to be the 'code of conduct' for a great many Muslims.....radical or not:

POINT 1:

You’ve heard it said that “ignorance of the law excuses no one,” and that’s usually true, except in the case of pedophile rapist Adil Rashid, who avoided the can because he “didn’t know” sex with 13-year-olds is illegal.

Rashid, 18, is a Muslim,  that fact is actually crucial to his case and eventual sentence (or lack thereof). Rashid lured a 13-year-old on Facebook and eventually raped her, but was spared a prison sentence because he went to an Islamic faith school where he was taught that women are worthless.

He said he wasn’t aware it was illegal for him to have sex with the girl because of his education, and the judge decided to let him off the hook.

The judge also described Rashid as “passive” and “lacking assertiveness,” and argued that putting him in jail might cause “more damage than good.”

Rashid did admit to having sex with the girl, explaining that he had been “tempted by her” after they met online. They exchanged messages on Facebook before sending texts and having phone conversations over two months. They met in Nottingham, where Rashid booked a hotel room.

He was arrested after talking about the rendezvous with a friend, and explained that while he was reluctant to sleep with the girl due to her age, he ultimately relented after she seduced him.

He told psychologists that he didn’t know his actions were illegal, and explained that he was taught that “women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground,” at his school, which cannot be named for legal reasons.

WHY NOT NAME THE SCHOOL......probably because it is a Madrassa (usually associated with 'extremism') and Joe Public would (IMO) rightly take action against it.

POINT 2:

A Muslim community leader has said there is a "problem" of British Pakistani men thinking "white girls are worthless and can be abused".

And the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) said it was "investigating why there may be a majority of Asians in these particular kinds of offence".

Regarding the foregoing this is a very sad indictment of our legal system.  IMO Rashid should have been jailed for a long long time, action taken against the so called 'school' for teaching this bilious rubbish.  It illustrates very clearly that Muslim 'Religious schools' even in this country are producing people unfit to enter 'our' society.  If they can turn out people like Rashid in our 'civilised' country imagine how many 'radical' individuals with a brainwashed hatred of the West are being produced in the more 'lawless' areas of the world.

POINT 3:

In Afghanistan and the 'lawless' areas of 'The Stans' it is built into the culture that 'boys are for pleasure, girls/women are for babies'.  Young boys are raped by their elders......it s a cultural thing which perpetuates itself as these boys grow up knowing no better.

US soldiers have had several confrontations with members of Afghanistan security forces (ASF) over their practice of kidnapping and using young boys for sexual purposes. Some Afghans dismiss US military opposition as cultural bias, saying that their bacha bazi practice (pederasty, often forcible on young boys) has been ongoing for centuries. Government officials say they are concerned, but since Islamic law requires four witnesses to rape, and few would expose themselves to testify, witnesses have been scarce.  This is not confined to ASF.  The practice is widespread in the region.

In essence it seems to be that the teachings/practices of Islam/Muslims are in a great many instances totally abhorrent to the sensitivities/standards expected/deemed as acceptable in 'civilised society'.  

Maybe the foregoing will go a little way towards explaining the animosity felt by many towards this evil section of the global population.  They commit acts ranging from the rape of 'worthless' (words from Rashid..... not mine) girls, the culturally accepted rape of boys to the most heinous acts on a global scale......and some folks wonder why Muslims are treated/thought of (in 'civilised' society which feels threatened by it) with disgust and hatred.

[nightrider]

I see that the Iranians have innovated a new devise for punishing wrongdoers, its a hand operated circular saw for amputating the fingers, it was used on a man found guilty of theft and adultery, how barbaric?

[John 47]

RogerC - 2013-01-31 2:59 PM

To try and illustrate/explain the outpouring of concern/anger against the Muslim world the items below take it to 'street level' in an attempt to illustrate that it is from the 'ground up' that acceptable standards of behavior seem not to be the 'code of conduct' for a great many Muslims.....radical or not:

POINT 1:

You’ve heard it said that “ignorance of the law excuses no one,” and that’s usually true, except in the case of pedophile rapist Adil Rashid, who avoided the can because he “didn’t know” sex with 13-year-olds is illegal.

Rashid, 18, is a Muslim,  that fact is actually crucial to his case and eventual sentence (or lack thereof). Rashid lured a 13-year-old on Facebook and eventually raped her, but was spared a prison sentence because he went to an Islamic faith school where he was taught that women are worthless.

He said he wasn’t aware it was illegal for him to have sex with the girl because of his education, and the judge decided to let him off the hook.

The judge also described Rashid as “passive” and “lacking assertiveness,” and argued that putting him in jail might cause “more damage than good.”

Rashid did admit to having sex with the girl, explaining that he had been “tempted by her” after they met online. They exchanged messages on Facebook before sending texts and having phone conversations over two months. They met in Nottingham, where Rashid booked a hotel room.

He was arrested after talking about the rendezvous with a friend, and explained that while he was reluctant to sleep with the girl due to her age, he ultimately relented after she seduced him.

He told psychologists that he didn’t know his actions were illegal, and explained that he was taught that “women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground,” at his school, which cannot be named for legal reasons.

WHY NOT NAME THE SCHOOL......probably because it is a Madrassa (usually associated with 'extremism') and Joe Public would (IMO) rightly take action against it.

POINT 2:

A Muslim community leader has said there is a "problem" of British Pakistani men thinking "white girls are worthless and can be abused".

And the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) said it was "investigating why there may be a majority of Asians in these particular kinds of offence".

Regarding the foregoing this is a very sad indictment of our legal system.  IMO Rashid should have been jailed for a long long time, action taken against the so called 'school' for teaching this bilious rubbish.  It illustrates very clearly that Muslim 'Religious schools' even in this country are producing people unfit to enter 'our' society.  If they can turn out people like Rashid in our 'civilised' country imagine how many 'radical' individuals with a brainwashed hatred of the West are being produced in the more 'lawless' areas of the world.

POINT 3:

 

In Afghanistan and the 'lawless' areas of 'The Stans' it is built into the culture that 'boys are for pleasure, girls/women are for babies'.  Young boys are raped by their elders......it s a cultural thing which perpetuates itself as these boys grow up knowing no better.

US soldiers have had several confrontations with members of Afghanistan security forces (ASF) over their practice of kidnapping and using young boys for sexual purposes. Some Afghans dismiss US military opposition as cultural bias, saying that their bacha bazi practice (pederasty, often forcible on young boys) has been ongoing for centuries. Government officials say they are concerned, but since Islamic law requires four witnesses to rape, and few would expose themselves to testify, witnesses have been scarce.  This is not confined to ASF.  The practice is widespread in the region.

In essence it seems to be that the teachings/practices of Islam/Muslims are in a great many instances totally abhorrent to the sensitivities/standards expected/deemed as acceptable in 'civilised society'.  

Maybe the foregoing will go a little way towards explaining the animosity felt by many towards this evil section of the global population.  They commit acts ranging from the rape of 'worthless' (words from Rashid..... not mine) girls, the culturally accepted rape of boys to the most heinous acts on a global scale......and some folks wonder why Muslims are treated/thought of (in 'civilised' society which feels threatened by it) with disgust and hatred.

The problem with your post is that the facts are not as they seem. I post a link to the daily Mail to show that I did not get the facts from a paper that would be unacceptable to you!http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.htmlI know no more about the details of the case than you do but it is clear from the Mail that:1. The judge dismissed Rashid's excuse out of hand2. The judge decided that Rashid was the naive one in the relationship and the girl had initiated sex3. The judge decided that because of his naivity a prison sentence would be more likely to turn him into a hardened criminal than do any goodSo although it was legally rape (he is 18, she is 13) the judge took the view that the girl was not only a willing partner but the initiator.To me, the most amazing thing in all this is that an idiot defence lawyer thought he could not only get away with such an excuse but that he thought that it would do his client any good!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Let me be clear I am not replying to you, been there, done it, as they say

 

I am more convinced than ever that Muslims are hamstrung by the religion they follow, and for the "moderates" they must torn between denouncing and distancing themselves from Islam as interpreted in so many different ways, especially the one that live in non Muslim countries. I will admit I originally came to this discussion with a very dogmatic mindset, and have learnt so much about this religion over the last few days my head is spinning.

 

But just because of the very nature of Islam, if the crap ever hits the fan their allegiance will be to their religion first and foremost, that it seems to me is the nature of the beast. There is also in my mind no doubt now after reading more and more, that the west have done themselves no favour in all this, but at the end of the day, surely it will come down to one simple thing, they are all "brothers", attack one, and your attacking all, with a worldwide reaction, and that is without precedent in the modern world, and is a whole new ball game now and for the future.

 

Reading about Kasim Hafeez was for me at least heartening, but here's the problem, he probably has a Fatwah out on him right now,so there's a long way to go, a very long way to go.

[RogerC]

John 47 - 2013-01-31 4:53 PM

RogerC - 2013-01-31 2:59 PM

To try and illustrate/explain the outpouring of concern/anger against the Muslim world the items below take it to 'street level' in an attempt to illustrate that it is from the 'ground up' that acceptable standards of behavior seem not to be the 'code of conduct' for a great many Muslims.....radical or not:

POINT 1:

You’ve heard it said that “ignorance of the law excuses no one,” and that’s usually true, except in the case of pedophile rapist Adil Rashid, who avoided the can because he “didn’t know” sex with 13-year-olds is illegal.

Rashid, 18, is a Muslim,  that fact is actually crucial to his case and eventual sentence (or lack thereof). Rashid lured a 13-year-old on Facebook and eventually raped her, but was spared a prison sentence because he went to an Islamic faith school where he was taught that women are worthless.

He said he wasn’t aware it was illegal for him to have sex with the girl because of his education, and the judge decided to let him off the hook.

The judge also described Rashid as “passive” and “lacking assertiveness,” and argued that putting him in jail might cause “more damage than good.”

Rashid did admit to having sex with the girl, explaining that he had been “tempted by her” after they met online. They exchanged messages on Facebook before sending texts and having phone conversations over two months. They met in Nottingham, where Rashid booked a hotel room.

He was arrested after talking about the rendezvous with a friend, and explained that while he was reluctant to sleep with the girl due to her age, he ultimately relented after she seduced him.

He told psychologists that he didn’t know his actions were illegal, and explained that he was taught that “women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground,” at his school, which cannot be named for legal reasons.

WHY NOT NAME THE SCHOOL......probably because it is a Madrassa (usually associated with 'extremism') and Joe Public would (IMO) rightly take action against it.

POINT 2:

A Muslim community leader has said there is a "problem" of British Pakistani men thinking "white girls are worthless and can be abused".

And the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) said it was "investigating why there may be a majority of Asians in these particular kinds of offence".

Regarding the foregoing this is a very sad indictment of our legal system.  IMO Rashid should have been jailed for a long long time, action taken against the so called 'school' for teaching this bilious rubbish.  It illustrates very clearly that Muslim 'Religious schools' even in this country are producing people unfit to enter 'our' society.  If they can turn out people like Rashid in our 'civilised' country imagine how many 'radical' individuals with a brainwashed hatred of the West are being produced in the more 'lawless' areas of the world.

POINT 3:

 

In Afghanistan and the 'lawless' areas of 'The Stans' it is built into the culture that 'boys are for pleasure, girls/women are for babies'.  Young boys are raped by their elders......it s a cultural thing which perpetuates itself as these boys grow up knowing no better.

US soldiers have had several confrontations with members of Afghanistan security forces (ASF) over their practice of kidnapping and using young boys for sexual purposes. Some Afghans dismiss US military opposition as cultural bias, saying that their bacha bazi practice (pederasty, often forcible on young boys) has been ongoing for centuries. Government officials say they are concerned, but since Islamic law requires four witnesses to rape, and few would expose themselves to testify, witnesses have been scarce.  This is not confined to ASF.  The practice is widespread in the region.

In essence it seems to be that the teachings/practices of Islam/Muslims are in a great many instances totally abhorrent to the sensitivities/standards expected/deemed as acceptable in 'civilised society'.  

Maybe the foregoing will go a little way towards explaining the animosity felt by many towards this evil section of the global population.  They commit acts ranging from the rape of 'worthless' (words from Rashid..... not mine) girls, the culturally accepted rape of boys to the most heinous acts on a global scale......and some folks wonder why Muslims are treated/thought of (in 'civilised' society which feels threatened by it) with disgust and hatred.

The problem with your post is that the facts are not as they seem. I post a link to the daily Mail to show that I did not get the facts from a paper that would be unacceptable to you!http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.htmlI know no more about the details of the case than you do but it is clear from the Mail that:1. The judge dismissed Rashid's excuse out of hand2. The judge decided that Rashid was the naive one in the relationship and the girl had initiated sex3. The judge decided that because of his naivity a prison sentence would be more likely to turn him into a hardened criminal than do any goodSo although it was legally rape (he is 18, she is 13) the judge took the view that the girl was not only a willing partner but the initiator.To me, the most amazing thing in all this is that an idiot defence lawyer thought he could not only get away with such an excuse but that he thought that it would do his client any good!

 

I notice you only pick up on what the Judge said.  Had it been a white anglo saxon youth he would have been 'sent down'.  It is simply abhorrent for someone who thinks of women in such unacceptable terms to be walking out streets.

 

The thing I was trying to illustrate, and which you have chosen to apparently dismiss/ignore is that regardless of the IMO leniency of the Judge is that Rashid's 'education' at the hands of 'probably' radical Imams he was taught to believe that  “women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground”.  As he obviously believed what he was told he is IMO a very dangerous person.

There is no place for teachings such as this in 'civilised society'.  This case and those above simply illustrate that there are 'elements' within the Muslim faith that have, compared to all that we hold dear, some radical/extreme/abhorrent views on life and how it should be lived.

Imagine if you will a Muslim extremist dominated world, because that is what they wish to attain.....

 

Admittedly these are Taliban bans but you get the picture......

 

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.

- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.

- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.

- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.

- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.

- All boy students must wear turbans. They say "No turban, no education".

- Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews.

- Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.

And so on...

In closing might I suggest you Google 'Sharia Law'....it makes frightening reading and IT IS HAPPENING IN THE UK RIGHT NOW.

 

[John 47]

RogerC - 2013-01-31 5:39 PM

 

I notice you only pick up on what the Judge said.  Had it been a white anglo saxon youth he would have been 'sent down'.  It is simply abhorrent for someone who thinks of women in such unacceptable terms to be walking out streets.

 

I did not know where you got the rest of the information from. I was aware of the case you spoke of and since your interpretation of that case was not in line with the facts, I declined to comment on the rest - because I could not verify it.

 

How on earth do you know that a white youth would have been treated differently?

 

Of course it is unacceptable and if you think that kind of attitude is limited to Muslim youth then you have led a very sheltered life. My wife was a family lawyer for most of her working life - she could tell you some blood-curdling tales about what goes on behind closed doors in ALL communities.

 

My point is not that we should be lenient on Muslims; but I am suspicious of people who concentrate ONLY on Muslim crimes.

[John 47]

knight of the road - 2013-01-31 4:49 PM

 

I see that the Iranians have innovated a new devise for punishing wrongdoers, its a hand operated circular saw for amputating the fingers, it was used on a man found guilty of theft and adultery, how barbaric?

 

I agree - barbaric. But I also find it bizarre that so many people who would agree with you are also in favour of bringing back hanging - illogical old world, isn't it?

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

No, No, No,1foot don't do it, please don't do it

 

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

 

 

Come on repeat after me.. 1foot......................................................

 

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

No, no, no, you promised you would not be suckered in again

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John 47 - 2013-01-31 5:51 PM

 

 

Of course it is unacceptable and if you think that kind of attitude is limited to Muslim youth then you have led a very sheltered life. My wife was a family lawyer for most of her working life - she could tell you some blood-curdling tales about what goes on behind closed doors in ALL communities.

 

 

Agreed there's plenty of nutters out there 8-)....................but not many have a religion that appears to condone such attitudes as acceptable *-)..................has this muslim school been taken to task for promoting such teachings?..............or would that not be PC ;-)

[CliveH]

As someone who is VERY anti religious schools - having seen the extreme damage they have done in Northern Ireland for example in generating hate and bigotry - I am amazed that such schools can exist in our supposedly "Multi-Cultural" society.

 

Don't get me wrong - haveing lived and worked in a Multi-Cultural society I am personally all for it.

 

What I know is the worst thing ever in causing cultural DIS-harmony is one religion only schools.

 

Again - I have to say the French have, in my mind, got the right idea in banning such schools and it is all too easy to manipulate the minds of impressionable students.

 

Why the hell we allow such racist and religious intolerance as part of our educational system is beyond me.

 

I do want a multi-cultural society - I actually believe in it. But Faith Schools are a very very bad idea.

 

 

[nowtelse2do]

The only logical thing to do IMO is not to ban Faith schools (that would lead to more extremism) but to make them accept in their schools a western faith teacher so as to give the pupils a more balanced view of our western cultures and belief's, especially if living and learning in a western country.

 

Me, personally would ban religion altogether, to much done in the name of it. Look what it has done on here over the pass few weeks.

 

Dave

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

nowtelse2do - 2013-01-31 7:21 PM

 

The only logical thing to do IMO is not to ban Faith schools (that would lead to more extremism) but to make them accept in their schools a western faith teacher so as to give the pupils a more balanced view of our western cultures and belief's, especially if living and learning in a western country.

 

Me, personally would ban religion altogether, to much done in the name of it. Look what it has done on here over the pass few weeks.

 

Dave

 

Only one slight flaw in that Dave, for the most part they despise our western cultures and belief's, and thereby is the problem, we are simply infidels.