Islamic terrorism in Mali

[Brian Kirby]

I don't like the idea of "faith schools" either, but would not ban them. I should much prefer them to be limited to matters that relate to whichever faith, outside school hours, and not be allowed to provide general education. I would then remove from state schools, as an act of neutrality, any daily act of worship. I suppose the Catholics would get miffed, but I have never seen their schools, good as they generally seem to be, as good for social cohesion.

 

The elephant in the room throughout all the debate about Muslim extremism, however, must surely be Israel and its treatment of, and by, Palestine. This one, long-standing, unresolved, multi-layered, largely one sided, dispute, and our various contradictory western attitudes toward both sides, is what seems to me the main feed of Muslim extremism. If that could be resolved, I think much at the core of Muslim extremism would be lanced. It would not result in world-wide peace overnight, and I can see no real possibility of the extremists universally accepting any likely solution as what they would support, but I do think it would begin to reduce the numbers of the disaffected, among whom they appear to gain so much tacit support.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2013-01-31 8:05 PM

 

The elephant in the room throughout all the debate about Muslim extremism, however, must surely be Israel and its treatment of, and by, Palestine.

 

By Eck 8-) 8-)........Your living dangerously Brian 8-) 8-)............I see even Murdoch had to make an apology for a Scaffe cartoon *-).....................no one criticizes Israel >:-)

[nowtelse2do]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 7:51 PM

 

nowtelse2do - 2013-01-31 7:21 PM

 

The only logical thing to do IMO is not to ban Faith schools (that would lead to more extremism) but to make them accept in their schools a western faith teacher so as to give the pupils a more balanced view of our western cultures and belief's, especially if living and learning in a western country.

 

Me, personally would ban religion altogether, to much done in the name of it. Look what it has done on here over the pass few weeks.

 

Dave

 

Only one slight flaw in that Dave, for the most part they despise our western cultures and belief's, and thereby is the problem, we are simply infidels.

 

I don't see to much of flaw Mike in the respect that they would not be taught hatred by their teachers. If there was hatred being taught then the penalty would have to be that the school would be shut down or those teachers not allowed to teach if it persisted with that kind of teaching. We don't teach hatred in our schools so if it is good enough for our kids then it should be good enough for theirs.

 

By the way Mike the school where my granddaughter goes to have about 30 kids there that are born off Asian parents. All speak English just as good as my granddaughter, they all play together with no prejudices towards each other. The reason they are there is because their parents don't want them in the school's where they live in a large Asian community. I know they are a minority but there's got to be some hope.

 

Dave

 

 

[RogerC]

John 47 - 2013-01-31 5:51 PMHow on earth do you know that a white youth would have been treated differently?

Because any judge would have known he had NOT been taught/brainwashed by some irrational/western world hating Mullah....ergo he would have been treated differently....and more harshly.

 Of course it is unacceptable and if you think that kind of attitude is limited to Muslim youth then you have led a very sheltered life.

Of course the 'attitude' is prevalent in many other people BUT IT IS TAUGHT IN SO CALLED SCHOOLS IN THIS COUNTRY as well as in hundreds of Madrassas in other countries.  That is what is so very wrong and the authorities of the 'Nanny State' are too afraid to do something about it.

As for a sheltered life how does close involvement in 1 famine, 1 conflict, 2 wars, a number of UN peacekeeping missions, being bombed and shot at add up?  Sheltered life?   I think not.

 

In other cultures/religions the hatred (rational or irrational depending on your point of view) aimed towards the 'free world' is in the main exhibited by 'factions' and small groups.  Then you look at Islam/Muslim world and their values are in many cases abhorrent to 'decent thinking people' and the vitriolic hatred of the West is drummed into primarily the poor and ignorant of those countries.  They 'teach' western hatred in their schools/madrassas to thousands.  You don't see Mullahs and other so called 'leaders' of these groups going on suicide missions do you?  No it's because the ignorant know only what has been brainwashed into them.  Kids as young as 11 or 12 walking into groups of squaddies/public places and blowing themselves up.  Is that a sign of a 'rational' religeon?

As for my facts.  A great deal was gained from experience having spent a great deal time in India, Pakistan, Africa and Afghanistan (amongst a great many other places) over the last 25 or so years.  I have had long talks with combat troops, embassy officials, international business men and UN Station officers in a lot of 'hot spots'.  I have tried to express those findings prior to this post but you obviously have greater knowledge of things than I in my 'limited' experience. 

I am not saying, to coin a phrase '4 legs good 2 legs bad' but if you can't see that this is what scares people then I feel sorry for you.

[John 47]

RogerC - 2013-01-31 10:21 PM

John 47 - 2013-01-31 5:51 PMHow on earth do you know that a white youth would have been treated differently?

Because any judge would have known he had NOT been taught/brainwashed by some irrational/western world hating Mullah....ergo he would have been treated differently....and more harshly.

 Of course it is unacceptable and if you think that kind of attitude is limited to Muslim youth then you have led a very sheltered life.

Of course the 'attitude' is prevalent in many other people BUT IT IS TAUGHT IN SO CALLED SCHOOLS IN THIS COUNTRY as well as in hundreds of Madrassas in other countries.  That is what is so very wrong and the authorities of the 'Nanny State' are too afraid to do something about it.

As for a sheltered life how does close involvement in 1 famine, 1 conflict, 2 wars, a number of UN peacekeeping missions, being bombed and shot at add up?  Sheltered life?   I think not.

 

In other cultures/religions the hatred (rational or irrational depending on your point of view) aimed towards the 'free world' is in the main exhibited by 'factions' and small groups.  Then you look at Islam/Muslim world and their values are in many cases abhorrent to 'decent thinking people' and the vitriolic hatred of the West is drummed into primarily the poor and ignorant of those countries.  They 'teach' western hatred in their schools/madrassas to thousands.  You don't see Mullahs and other so called 'leaders' of these groups going on suicide missions do you?  No it's because the ignorant know only what has been brainwashed into them.  Kids as young as 11 or 12 walking into groups of squaddies/public places and blowing themselves up.  Is that a sign of a 'rational' religeon?

As for my facts.  A great deal was gained from experience having spent a great deal time in India, Pakistan, Africa and Afghanistan (amongst a great many other places) over the last 25 or so years.  I have had long talks with combat troops, embassy officials, international business men and UN Station officers in a lot of 'hot spots'.  I have tried to express those findings prior to this post but you obviously have greater knowledge of things than I in my 'limited' experience. 

I am not saying, to coin a phrase '4 legs good 2 legs bad' but if you can't see that this is what scares people then I feel sorry for you.

You may have spent a lot of time in Muslim countries but your mind is still closed to objective facts as illustrated by your comment about the judge. He REJECTED the defence that the defence lawyer put forward so to say that a white youth would have been treated differently is pure nonsense. You are actually displaying the same blind prejudice that you complain of in extreme Islamists.

[John 47]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 7:51 PM

 

Only one slight flaw in that Dave, for the most part they despise our western cultures and belief's, and thereby is the problem, we are simply infidels.

 

Back to the same blind prejudice again, I see. For the most part "they" do not despise our cultures and beliefs. You continue to tar all with the same brush despite absolutely no evidence that this is the case.

[John 47]

CliveH - 2013-01-31 7:03 PM

 

As someone who is VERY anti religious schools - having seen the extreme damage they have done in Northern Ireland for example in generating hate and bigotry - I am amazed that such schools can exist in our supposedly "Multi-Cultural" society.

 

Don't get me wrong - haveing lived and worked in a Multi-Cultural society I am personally all for it.

 

What I know is the worst thing ever in causing cultural DIS-harmony is one religion only schools.

 

Again - I have to say the French have, in my mind, got the right idea in banning such schools and it is all too easy to manipulate the minds of impressionable students.

 

Why the hell we allow such racist and religious intolerance as part of our educational system is beyond me.

 

I do want a multi-cultural society - I actually believe in it. But Faith Schools are a very very bad idea.

 

 

I share your dislike of faith schools and have a certain sympathy with the French approach but in the end I think I agree with Brian and nowtelsetodo that banning is not the answer. Banning anything only ever makes it stronger. Which is why the attitudes of people like onefootinthegrave are self-defeating.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Brian Kirby - 2013-01-31 8:05 PM

 

I don't like the idea of "faith schools" either, but would not ban them. I should much prefer them to be limited to matters that relate to whichever faith, outside school hours, and not be allowed to provide general education. I would then remove from state schools, as an act of neutrality, any daily act of worship. I suppose the Catholics would get miffed, but I have never seen their schools, good as they generally seem to be, as good for social cohesion.

 

The elephant in the room throughout all the debate about Muslim extremism, however, must surely be Israel and its treatment of, and by, Palestine. This one, long-standing, unresolved, multi-layered, largely one sided, dispute, and our various contradictory western attitudes toward both sides, is what seems to me the main feed of Muslim extremism. If that could be resolved, I think much at the core of Muslim extremism would be lanced. It would not result in world-wide peace overnight, and I can see no real possibility of the extremists universally accepting any likely solution as what they would support, but I do think it would begin to reduce the numbers of the disaffected, among whom they appear to gain so much tacit support.

 

Take a look at this, a Muslim that had his preconceived ideas about Israel completely shot out of the water, it's well worth a read, and food for thought

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/hannah-gal/kasim-hafeez-british-muslim_b_2522687.htm

 

[CliveH]

The link had a "kink" in it for me 1foot - but I found it by going to the Huff. post and then a search for "British Muslim" and found it with no problem.

 

And I think this individuals experience of finding a truth so very different from what he was taught surely demonstrates that we should not do as he was taught to do. :-S

 

He was taught hatred against a nation/religion.

 

He now realises that was wrong.

 

The post above from Nowtelse - about some Asian families selecting a non-faith school in order for their children to integrate better is exactly what I am talking about!

 

In my view segregating children at school is a bizarre and grotesque mistake.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Ditto. But also, if you research Hannah Gal, her Linkedin profile - which I assume is from the horse's mouth - cites part of her education as "Witzo". A google on Witzo is illuminating. You just may decide that the reportage could contain a wee bit of rosy tint bias. Kasim Hafeez seems a remarkably impressionable lad for a 28 year old. Somewhat naive, I think one might say.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I'm a little unclear, Kasim Hafeez naive because he was fed prejudice from birth, ( as I suspect many others are ) or his different view as a 28 year old ?

 

If nothing else it gave me cause for hope.

[John 47]

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-01 12:44 PM

 

I'm a little unclear, Kasim Hafeez naive because he was fed prejudice from birth, ( as I suspect many others are ) or his different view as a 28 year old ?

 

If nothing else it gave me cause for hope.

 

I agree with you - we need to cling on to every chance of hope, no matter how small. Isolation changess nobody's views but working with them may - which is why I am so against blanket disapproval of all of a group (any group).

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Oh dear......................................

 

Naomi Oni, 20, was left with severe burns on her head, neck, arms, legs and body after she was attacked in Dagenham, east London

 

She has released the shocking images of her disfigured face in an appeal for help to catch the attacker whose identity was concealed behind the Muslim women’s dress which completely covers the face apart from the eyes.

 

Mind you if it's all been caught on CCTV, they will at least see her eyes. Just saying mind ;-)

 

I wish it had been around in my younger days, bank robbery could have been a good career move ;-)

 

( Note to self,must stop reading the papers.)

[John 47]

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-01 3:57 PM

 

Oh dear......................................

 

Naomi Oni, 20, was left with severe burns on her head, neck, arms, legs and body after she was attacked in Dagenham, east London

 

She has released the shocking images of her disfigured face in an appeal for help to catch the attacker whose identity was concealed behind the Muslim women’s dress which completely covers the face apart from the eyes.

 

Mind you if it's all been caught on CCTV, they will at least see her eyes. Just saying mind ;-)

 

I wish it had been around in my younger days, bank robbery could have been a good career move ;-)

 

( Note to self,must stop reading the papers.)

 

Shocking case but I'm not sure what your point is. There are plenty of horrific cases that aren't commited by Muslims and most Muslims don't commit crimes. In fact, the vast majority of Muslim women don't even wear the veil.

[donna miller]

Will the lot of you please stop banging on about where you've been, what you've done and who you know. The fact is, if it was YOUR 13 year old daughter then no bulls**t excuses or reasons would cut any ice. You would be demanding the full force of the law to be bought down on the head of the 18 year old. Also, you should be asking why hasn't he been put on the sex offenders register?

It wouldn't matter to any of you whether he was Muslim, Indian, Eskimo or White Anglo Saxon, if he'd have screwed your daughter, your attitude would be different. The law in this country is the law that should be applied, his religious beliefs and educational background are irrelevant. Full stop.

[nowtelse2do]

donna miller - 2013-02-01 4:54 PM

 

Will the lot of you please stop banging on about where you've been, what you've done and who you know. The fact is, if it was YOUR 13 year old daughter then no bulls**t excuses or reasons would cut any ice. You would be demanding the full force of the law to be bought down on the head of the 18 year old. Also, you should be asking why hasn't he been put on the sex offenders register?

It wouldn't matter to any of you whether he was Muslim, Indian, Eskimo or White Anglo Saxon, if he'd have screwed your daughter, your attitude would be different. The law in this country is the law that should be applied, his religious beliefs and educational background are irrelevant. Full stop.

 

Quite Right Donna, I was told quite bluntly once that ignorance of law is no excuse. £200 please oh.!! and costs £450 *-) At 18 I think he has pulled the wool over someones eyes

 

Dave

[John 47]

donna miller - 2013-02-01 4:54 PM

 

Will the lot of you please stop banging on about where you've been, what you've done and who you know. The fact is, if it was YOUR 13 year old daughter then no bulls**t excuses or reasons would cut any ice. You would be demanding the full force of the law to be bought down on the head of the 18 year old. Also, you should be asking why hasn't he been put on the sex offenders register?

It wouldn't matter to any of you whether he was Muslim, Indian, Eskimo or White Anglo Saxon, if he'd have screwed your daughter, your attitude would be different. The law in this country is the law that should be applied, his religious beliefs and educational background are irrelevant. Full stop.

 

Quite right - if it was my 13 year old daughter, the last thing on my mind would be what religion the perpetrator followed - which was sort of my point! However, from what little I know about the case from the newspaper reports the parents of that girl have a lot to answer for because the judge clearly regarded her as the initiator.

 

Btw, I'm not sure what you mean by banging on about where we've been, what we've done and who we know - can't recall too much of that and what would be its relevance to this case?

[CliveH]

I too agree Donna - but I would point out that whilst the inference was that the 18 year old somehow "got away" with it because of his faith school education - the Judge actually said nothing of the sort.

 

And yes he should be in the sex offenders register.

 

And yes the school if guilty of teaching such tosh should be taken over by new Governors as a school that is obviously failing its obligation to educate.

 

And I think we should remember that their IS a Politically Correct element to this in that it was not that long ago that the Social Services in Bradford conspired and covered up abuse of underage girls because the perpetrators where Asian, saying that the girls had made a "lifestyle choice".

 

Abuse of a minor is abuse of a minor. Full stop. It matters not what ethnic background the perpetrators are - they should be caught and punished - not allowed to get away with it and blame placed on the victims of their crimes.

 

Our laws should be applied equally to all.

 

But I still believe in a multicultural society and would like to see Faith Schools banned. I do not think you can have the first without the second.

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

John 47 - 2013-02-01 4:29 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-01 3:57 PM

the attacker whose identity was concealed behind the Muslim women’s dress which completely covers the face apart from the eyes.

 

Shocking case but I'm not sure what your point is.

 

.

No of course you don't.

[Guest peter]

Whether the 13 Yr old initiaated the sex act or not is irrelevant. She is 3 Yrs below the age of consent so was not in the laws eyes able to give her onsent at all. So in the eyes of the law the perpetrator is guilty of statutary rape and should be sentenced accordingly. Personally I'd like to cut his b0llocks off with a rusty razor blade.

[John 47]

peter - 2013-02-01 5:54 PM

 

Whether the 13 Yr old initiaated the sex act or not is irrelevant. She is 3 Yrs below the age of consent so was not in the laws eyes able to give her onsent at all. So in the eyes of the law the perpetrator is guilty of statutary rape and should be sentenced accordingly. Personally I'd like to cut his b0llocks off with a rusty razor blade.

 

Yes it was rape. The judge said it was rape. The defendant was found guilty and given a sentence that the judge though would be the best suitable. The judge was there and heard everything; it never ceases to amaze me that people who only have a newspaper report to go on think they know more than a judge or jury!

[John 47]

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-01 5:44 PM

 

John 47 - 2013-02-01 4:29 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-01 3:57 PM

the attacker whose identity was concealed behind the Muslim women’s dress which completely covers the face apart from the eyes.

 

Shocking case but I'm not sure what your point is.

 

.

No of course you don't.

 

And when did you last post about a white man committing a crime hidden under a crash helmet? You know very well that my point is you never mention any crime that wasn't committed by a Muslim. I think we all know what your motives are by now.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

John 47 - 2013-02-01 6:07 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-01 5:44 PM

 

John 47 - 2013-02-01 4:29 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-01 3:57 PM

the attacker whose identity was concealed behind the Muslim women’s dress which completely covers the face apart from the eyes.

 

Shocking case but I'm not sure what your point is.

 

.

No of course you don't.

 

And when did you last post about a white man committing a crime hidden under a crash helmet?.

 

Just yesterday and reported it to the Police.......but actually I could not be sure he was White though, I could only see his eyes through a slit, you really must try harder pal ;-)

[Guest pelmetman]

John 47 - 2013-02-01 6:05 PM

 

peter - 2013-02-01 5:54 PM

 

Whether the 13 Yr old initiaated the sex act or not is irrelevant. She is 3 Yrs below the age of consent so was not in the laws eyes able to give her onsent at all. So in the eyes of the law the perpetrator is guilty of statutary rape and should be sentenced accordingly. Personally I'd like to cut his b0llocks off with a rusty razor blade.

 

Yes it was rape. The judge said it was rape. The defendant was found guilty and given a sentence that the judge though would be the best suitable. The judge was there and heard everything; it never ceases to amaze me that people who only have a newspaper report to go on think they know more than a judge or jury!

 

I assume the jury found him guilty? ;-)...................it was the judge that decided to level such a lenient sentence *-) ................I've not read anything about this case except what I've seen on this thread........and to be frank it sounds like he's got away with it, especially if he's not even being put on the sex offenders list 8-).....

 

Sounds like another judge who lives in "Ivory Towers" :D

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

It kind of sends the wrong message though, and the judge should be sacked !