pepe63xnotuse Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Hi all First off,sorry as this isn't a MH enquiry... (..I had thought of raising it in "chatterbox" but didn't want to risk it somehow turning into yet another "Muslim/EU/Gay/Public sector bashing" thread... *-) ) Anyway...I've recently bought a cheapie HiAce van,to use as a "camping vehicle"..and as it'll be used on(probably muddy!)festival/campsites,I'd like to know what the "legal" situation would be,if I was to look at fitting more *knobbly,winter type tyres on the rear(drive)axle..? (..*I'd probably fit these to a couple of extra wheels,which I'd just fit prior to travelling to the event). I'm well aware that it would be "better" if all tyres were the same...but I've "had a google" and other than "advice/opinions",I can really find any "legal" view point... ..anyone know the actual "facts"? ;-) Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 As I understand it you must not mix radial and cross ply on the same vehicle and the tyres on each axle must be of the identical type, size, speed rating, load index etc and suitable for the vehicle but they can be of different brands. As far as legality have you asked the tyre manufacturers who make this type of tyre, or maybe your local friendly MOT tester, or Toyota UK? I doubt tyre sellers would be dependable for advice as they just like to sell tyres! As for definitive legality, maybe VOSA , the MOT testing parameters for tyres. the AA or RAC maybe? A nice pair of knobbly mud tyres sounds like an excellent idea to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 I haven't ventured as far as chasing up any MOT tester or Toyota UK routes yet... ...I just wanted to try and get some "background" info',before someone just tried to basically cover their ar*e by sell me something I maybe didn't need... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 As far as I can see nothing in the UK Construction and use regs to say you can't, but if you venture abroad you may fall foul of their laws as most countries that require winter tyres during the winter require them to be fitted to all wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 MOT test tyre-related requirements are here: http://www.ukmot.com/mot%20manual/index.asp?MOT_Section=Tyres&MOT_Number=4.1 It's common for high-performance cars to have radically different size and design of tyres front and rear, so you don't have to worry about fitting different pattern tyres. As will be evident from the MOT test criteria you do have to be careful about the axles you fit different-construction tyres to, but the chances are any tyre you buy (whatever its pattern) will be radial-construction. I doubt that you intend to fit genuine "winter" (or, more accurately "cold weather") tyres to your HiAce's driven wheels. It's far more likely that you have in mind to fit the type of 'off road' tyre used on 4x4 vehicles like Land Rovers, which should be advantageous on muddy ground. I don't believe there is any legal impediment to you doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-02-07 10:59 AM As far as I can see nothing in the UK Construction and use regs to say you can't, but if you venture abroad you may fall foul of their laws as most countries that require winter tyres during the winter require them to be fitted to all wheels. That's sounding encouraging..! ..and they would only be for the "occasional" muddy event... ;-) (..so basically,they'd be on all summer then... (lol) ) Sorry Derek..I crossed your post. Yes,that's correct,if I was to do it at all,I'd probably be looking at "knobbly/off road" type tyres(if they're available in the appropriate size/rating),rather than "Winter" tyres.. Thanks chaps ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 A good source of advice on tyres is to be found at: http://www.justtyres.co.uk/tyre-laws. Something which I remember from the 1960's, when radial tyres were becoming popular, is that it is OK (not desirable, but legal) to have cross ply on the front axle and radial on the back axle, but emphatically not the other way round. The reason is to do with the different slip angles the tyres make with the road surface due to the type of construction and the consequent effect on handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 I run with a "mild" mix at present, following advice from Continental's technical dept. I found the Vanco tyres on our rather lightly loaded front axle lacking grip, and didn't want to change all four tyres as only the fronts were moderately worn (about 3mm at worst). I found Vanco FourSeason, which are, as their name suggests, a four season tyre rather than a summer tyre, which is what the standard Vancos basically are. They probably have a less aggressive tread than you are looking for, but it is more "blocky" than the Vancos. It has demonstrably better grip than I was getting, on grass, soft ground, greasy wet roads, and on cold Alpine roads during light snow (not settling), but of course they are newer tyres with deeper tread. They are M+S rated, but are not a full winter, or cold weather, tyre (but are legal for winter use in Germany, providing 4mm tread remaining). Conti advised against mixing cold weather (full winter grade) tyres with summer tyres, as they regarded the risk of losing control of the summer tyre shod end under difficult winter conditions too great (and put down a reservation about the performance of the winter tyres on hot tarmac if used in summer, as the tread mix is too soft). They said they would not actually advise mixing the FourSeason with the standard tyre, but would not strongly advise against, either. It was sort of all right, but not to be generally recommended. So far, I have found it completely satisfactory, but there is a very slight increase in road noise. The FourSeason tyres are identical in construction, size, profile, load index, and speed rating to the Vancos. It is only the tread compound and pattern that differs. I suspect what you are really looking for is a radial M+S type tyre that is not a full winter tyre. It would be wise to check with the tyre manufacturer, when you find one that looks about right, to see if they have reservations about your proposed mix. If you hit real mud your only way out will be tractor tyres, for which you will need a tractor. Mind, they can be got with aircon these days! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 I have done a fair bit of marshalling at production car trials so have some experience in what helps traction. The Hi-Ace van built from the mid 90s to 2004 was unusual in being RWD and independently suspended on the rear axle. This set up should give better off road traction than almost any other front engined van and nearly as good as a rear engined VW. Keep it well loaded at the rear is vital. Reducing rear tyre pressures so the tyre walls bulge can also help but reinflate before travelling on the road. Appropriate 4X4 tyres are better than road items but dont expect them to perform miracles. Bear in mind that off road tyres probably offer inferior road grip to road tyres on tarmac and might affect cornering or emergency manoeuvres. The worst handling car I ever drove was a 1960s Humber Hawk Estate with Town and Country (a bit knobbly) cross plies on the rear and Michelin X radials that some pratt had fitted on the front. Twitchy and floppy at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share Posted February 8, 2013 Mornin' chaps... Yes you're correct Brian,I suppose I'm not really after a winter("cold weather"?) tyre as such..if it's too cold for "ordinary" tyres,then it'll be too bl**dy cold for us to be kippin' in an unheated van,with a tarp strapped to the side! (lol) .... George...Yes,I purposely went for the RWD Hiace,with traction in mind,although as you say,plenty of weight in/on the back will be crucial.I did look at a couple of T4 Syncros but I was more that a little apprehensive of the possibilty of facing expensive transmission repairs.(..and they tended to have been "Modified" by the custom and surf type "dudes" *-) ) Another thing I liked about the Hiace is that,unlike a lot of the more modern vans about,it has a decent amount of ground and *wheelarch clearance(..*giving the option to fit chains or mud paddles, if need be..)..Just a pity it's ugly as sin really! (lol) I suppose what ever tyres I fit(..if indeed I do end up switching),they've got to be worth the effort,otherwise I may as well just stick with what's on it and **drop the pressures.. (..** although I've done that on the MH a few times,I've probably never let enough out to be of any benefit,as I'm always concerned I'd end up breaking the seal..?! How low,is too low? :-S ) Either way,I'd rather risk having to drag/push/shove a slightly tatty SWB Hiace van off a field,than risk having the underbelly of our MH ripped off.... Thanks for all your input,chaps..;-) (..just off to google "Diff lock conversion for Toyota Hiace"... (lol) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 spospe - 2013-02-07 2:27 PM A good source of advice on tyres is to be found at: http://www.justtyres.co.uk/tyre-laws. Something which I remember from the 1960's, when radial tyres were becoming popular, is that it is OK (not desirable, but legal) to have cross ply on the front axle and radial on the back axle, but emphatically not the other way round. The reason is to do with the different slip angles the tyres make with the road surface due to the type of construction and the consequent effect on handling. You''ll find that touched on in the "Reasons for Rejection" section of the MOT-test webpage link I provided earlier. A vehicle should fail the MOT-test if it has a cross-ply tyre or bias-belted tyre fitted on the rear axle and a radial-ply tyre is fitted on the front axle, OR a cross-ply tyre fitted on the rear axle and a bias-belted tyre fitted on the front axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Pepe, I believe the production car crews used to drop tyre pressures as low as 10psi even when tackling a rocky hill but wrecking tyres was an accepted risk. I tried searching on limited slip diff rather than a locker but found nothing even on e-bay. Either there was little demand as the FWD pick-ups were a better bet for off road or the Hi-Ace had enough traction for most work. Perhaps you have made the right choice. Incidentally I ran a A/S Clubman based on aT4 for several years and cannot ever recall breaking traction on either tarmac or grass. I put it down to the relativly soft long travel suspension keeping the wheels more evenly loaded than a stiffly suspended vehicle. A Citroen GS and Austin Maxi I have owned were good in that respect. Both had hydraulically linked front and rear springing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share Posted February 8, 2013 Thanks George.. ..I doubt went down anywhere near 10psi if I'm honest... :$ I did find some online info on air lockers,I read that the diff is supposed to be the same as used on the Hilux pickups...but that was on Aussie forums/sites,so don't know how relevent that info' is.. Being honest,i don't think I'd go that far with "modding" it anyway... Thanks again.. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 I found the aAussie site, I think the older Toyota pick ups had beam axles at both ends, the actual diffs may have been similar but the casing for the Hi-Ace was totally diferent. Even if either a LS or locking diff were acually produced the phrase hens teeth seems appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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