Guest adhple Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 My wife and I are off on a tour of France later this year we are taking our daughter and her three children. Our MH sleeps six but only has 4 seat belts 2 upfront and 2 forward facing dinette seats the other two people, my daughter and her oldest child (age 13) will sit in the rear facing seats what is the requirement for the seatbelts in France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel wood Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 With respect, I ask if you have already booked your holiday or ferry because this question needed researching before doing so. According to CC Caravan Europe Book 1 (2007edition) "Seat belts must be worn by the driver and all passengers. Children under 10 years of age must sit in the back of the vehicle and use an approved child seat or restraint adapted to their size. It is the driver's responsibility to ensure that all passengers aged under 18 are wearing a seat belt or suitable restraint". I cannot imagine that there has been a lessening of those laws in the intervening years. Irrespective of any law, many people would consider that the number of seat belts should match the number of berths if that many people are being carried. They would not carry more people than the number of seat belts from the safety aspect. I am sorry if you (and particularly the grandchildren) will not be able to have the holiday you planned but personally I can see the sense in all passengers wearing seat belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 We have a 5 berth, with I guess simular layout to yours. We have 6 seats , 4 belts, 2 seats facing rear. I would not carry 3 children, as most likely one or more, may be under 10, and would need a booster seat or child seat? Also you would need to look at payload, with that many people on board, plus water/fuel and all the luggage involved. You may also need high viz jackets for ALL pasengers (May not be a requirement) Think you need to rethink your plans. One answer would be for your Daughter to follow you in a car? PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Is this another wind up, you are actually considering carrying your daughter and grandchild unrestrained in the back of a camper...As said you probably dont have the weight capacity anyway..have you visited a weighbridge fully loaded with 6... take the good advice given previously and get them to follow in a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Before the law was changed there was no requirement to have belted seats and as the law is not retrospective if you have a van that was manufactured prior to the change you can carry what or who you like, not saying that it would or would not be wise but that would be your choice not the H&S brigades! We have a six berth and have five fitted seat belts, the remaining one being a rear facing seat. We have carried a full compliment many times quite happily, we are all still alive and uninjured, wouldn't hesitate to do it again if the need arose. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 adhple - 2013-02-11 11:05 AM My wife and I are off on a tour of France later this year we are taking our daughter and her three children. Our MH sleeps six but only has 4 seat belts 2 upfront and 2 forward facing dinette seats the other two people, my daughter and her oldest child (age 13) will sit in the rear facing seats what is the requirement for the seatbelts in France? If the seating plan that has your daughter and her 13-year-old child being transported in unbelted rear-facing seats is legal in the UK, then it's likely to be legal in France. This reasonably recent advice may be helpful: http://www.familytravelcentre.co.uk/blog/2011/08/driving-safely-in-your-motorhome/ It will be noted that a motorhome's date of manufacture and passenger age impact on the rules. (The concept of "designated travel seats" has also now been introduced.) The advice that "If your child is over the age of twelve then a seatbelt must be used if available. If however, all seats with belts are occupied then they are free to travel in any remaining seat" suggests that what you are planning to do would be UK-legal. French motorhome-related seat-belt rules are briefly summarised on Page 15 of this file: http://www.ffcc.fr/data/GENERAL/file/camping_car.pdf This advice distinguishes between 'recent' motorhomes (where everybody must be seat-belted) and 'older' motorhomes (where the number of people being carried must not exceed the number of 'carryable' people specified on the vehicle's registration certificate). But it needs to be highlighted that these rules apply to French-registered motorhomes. If there were a motoring accident in France that involved the passengers in your motorhome, I doubt that the French authorities would be concerned with trying to decide whether how you were transporting your passengers was legal in France provided that they believed what you were doing was legal in the UK where your motorhome is registered. This is a complex subject and you really need to get a firm answer from your insurance provider. Tell them exactly what you are planning to do and ask them to confirm (in writing) that it is acceptable to them and UK-legal. If they tell you it is, then you should be safe enough legally in France. If they say it is not, it would be wise to rethink your plans. While it's undoubtedly the case that transporting in a motorhome people who are properly secured with seat-belts is best policy, realistically it's hardly a hanging offence to carry them in seats that were never fitted with belts. Risks-wise, I'd much rather be where adhple plans to have his daughter and grandchild sitting than be riding around on anything with two wheels. The important thing is for him to establish the legality of what he has in mind and I believe that will be best done initially via his insurance provider. (There is no legal requirement in France to carry in a vehicle more than one high-visibility jacket. However (as PJay mentions) carrying one jacket per passenger is a good idea. You also need to carry a warning-triangle in the motorhome.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRANKP60 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Couple of years ago there was a picture in Practical Motor home of a Motor home that had been hit from behind at speed in the New Forrest . Apparently for some reason the drivers wife was asleep in the rear of van when the accident happened not belt,The rear of van was destroyed TOTAL the passenger was thrown out of the van and sustained very serious injurious. DON'T DO IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Indeed! Just because its tenuously legal dont make it right...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 There's no such thing as "tenuously legal" - either it is legal or it is not. Unless adhple plans not to drive his motorhome in the UK with the 6-person seating configuration he has mentioned, the first thing for him to confirm is the configuration's legality in this country. After that he can research the French legality (and the best of luck!) It's easy to envisage a serious motoring accident where adhple's daughter and grandchild would not have been injured/killed if they had been wearing seat-belts. But, because it's easy to envisage this, it should be easy for adhple (and his wife and daughter) to decide whether (even if the seating configuration is legal in the UK and France) it would be acceptable to them to travel in this way. Adhple has never asked for advice on safety, undoubtedly because the safety issue is self evident. If he finds that the seating configuration is not legal, he'd be a fool to carry his passengers in that manner. If he finds the configuration is legal, he can then decide on the wisdom of doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 No response from OP??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 PJay - 2013-02-14 10:59 AM No response from OP??? Probably a new batch of wind ups..... Derek, for heavens sake just because its legal don't make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-02-14 11:15 AM PJay - 2013-02-14 10:59 AM No response from OP??? Probably a new batch of wind ups..... Derek, for heavens sake just because its legal don't make it right. You said that before... If you mean "Just because something's legal, that doesn't make it wise", I wouldn't disagee with you. For example, a 95-year-old single man marrying an 18-year-old single woman (or vice versa) would be legal in the UK, but probably not wise. But "rightness" would not come into it and it doesn't come into adhple's inquiry. You said earlier "take the good advice given previously and get them to follow in a car." How can you know whether this is practical? Perhaps adhple is the only one with a driving licence. One might just as well say "Go on the train and stay in hotels". There is always the risk that asking a question on an internet forum will produce an answer containing a nasty surprise, But is there any good reason to be so didactic? Perhaps adhple has not yet replied because he is researching the issue further himself, or checking with his insurance provider. Or perhaps he just doesn't like being treated like an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Whilst traveling with no seatbelts is not ideal, I'll pose this question to those who say it is unsafe to do so, whats safer, to be in an accident with no seatbelt, or to be hit by a car/truck whilst on a bike/motorbike? My hospital records would indicate that the latter is considerably worse, so when someone asks "how do I fit/carry a bike/scooter" should I post that it is unsafe to ride such a vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 colin - 2013-02-14 7:28 PM Whilst traveling with no seatbelts is not ideal, I'll pose this question to those who say it is unsafe to do so, whats safer, to be in an accident with no seatbelt, or to be hit by a car/truck whilst on a bike/motorbike? My hospital records would indicate that the latter is considerably worse, so when someone asks "how do I fit/carry a bike/scooter" should I post that it is unsafe to ride such a vehicle? TOUCHE !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Unfortunately I do not think the OP is getting the specific answer to what the position in France would be and regrettably I am unable to help. As far as my own MH is concerned it only has two seat belts available and I can easily seat more on side facing seats. As far as I understand my only legal requirement for passengers is to ensure the available seat belt is used and particular for a child up to a certain age. This is all because my MH is 2005 registration. If that is the position in this country then I see the same being accepted in France. As for the various alleged issues with sitting on a side facing seat I have travelled today in a local Stagecoach bus on a side facing seat. If there were all these "dangers" and issues then I doubt if these vehicles would have been allowed on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 sshortcircuit - 2013-02-14 8:26 PM As for the various alleged issues with sitting on a side facing seat I have travelled today in a local Stagecoach bus on a side facing seat. If there were all these "dangers" and issues then I doubt if these vehicles would have been allowed on the road. I thought the issue with side facing seats was more to do with wearing a lap belt, than just sitting there? However, neither is an ideal situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 sshortcircuit - 2013-02-14 8:26 PM As for the various alleged issues with sitting on a side facing seat I have travelled today in a local Stagecoach bus on a side facing seat. If there were all these "dangers" and issues then I doubt if these vehicles would have been allowed on the road. Around here most of the school bus's have no seatbelts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I would agree with you that belts fitted to side facing seats can cause more damage. The point I was making is that if the vehicle is as I suggested then passengers can be carried in side facing seats and there is certainly no need to cancel a holiday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Modern motorhomes are full of passive safety features – driver and passenger air-bags, anti-lock brakes (ABS), electronic stability programs (ESP) and seat-belts. As one moves back in time, motorhomes will have progressively less safety ‘kit’. ESP will not be present, then ABS will disappear, then air-bags will be missing. Go back to the 1960s and there will be 'classic' motorhomes that were never fitted with seat-belts. Many of us own motorcaravans that lack important safety features found as standard on current motorhomes, and it might be argued that, when carrying passengers in older vehicles, we are consequentially putting passengers’ lives at risk. However, I’ve yet to see it suggested that owners of older vehicles are being irresponsible and, unless they upgrade to a current model of motorhome, that they should cease motorcaravanning. In adhple’s case, if some forum members are particularly dismayed because a 13-year-old child is involved, this objection could be countered by swapping ‘Granny’ for ‘Child’. The seating configuration would then change to adhple and the 13-year-old belted into the cab seats, two children belted into the forward-facing rear seats and adult wife and daughter unbelted in the rear-facing seats. Adhple’s children would all now be in seats with safety-belts, so the next question to be asked (as far as I’m concerned) is whether the revised seating configuration is legal in the UK. Adhple has provided no details of his motorhome, but let’s assume that, when the vehicle was built, having safety-belts only on the cab seats and front-facing rear seats was legally permissible. This “TALK MOTORHOMES” piece on the MotorHomeFun website seems to summarise the UK position adequately http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/magazine/articles/motorhome-seatbelt-law-and-best-practise/ It emphasises that, even when passengers can legally be carried unbelted in a motorhome, this can never be considered best practice. Let’s now assume that it would be legal under UK law for adhple to carry two passengers unbelted in the rear-facing rear seats and that he has decided to overlook the caveats mentioned in the TALK MOTORHOMES article and drive his motorhome in the UK with 5 passengers. Focusing on adhple’s original question regarding French seat-belt-wearing requirements... Although what’s generally said is that (in France) “wearing of seat belts is compulsory” (quoted from the Caravan Club’s 2012/2013 “Caravan Europe –France” guide), this is best practice advice. The AA’s advice for France http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/touring_tips/france-monaco.pdf is that it is “Compulsory for front/rear seat occupants to wear seat belts, IF FITTED.” (My capitalisation.) There’s a French piece here http://guyplanamora.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/reglementation-pour-les-camping-cars.pdf that deals with the regulations for seat-belt wearing in French-registered motorhomes. There are differences from UK regulations (because French vehicle-registration differs from UK registration), but the article indicates that (just as in the UK) it can be legal in France to carry passengers in a motorhome’s rear seats even when those seats have no safety-belts. As I said earlier, if adhple's planned method of carrying passengers in his motorhome is legal in the UK, it's probably legal in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I like this bit,from the "Motorhomefun" link: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: In October 2007 it became law for the manufactures to ensure that all seats that were intended to be used for travel should have a belt fitted../ cropped /...The manufacturer’s handbook will undoubtedly mention which seats are travel seats and which are not. Seats without belts are no more a travel seat than the seat in your loo! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 pepe63 - 2013-02-15 10:15 AM I like this bit,from the "Motorhomefun" link: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: In October 2007 it became law for the manufactures to ensure that all seats that were intended to be used for travel should have a belt fitted../ cropped /...The manufacturer’s handbook will undoubtedly mention which seats are travel seats and which are not. Seats without belts are no more a travel seat than the seat in your loo! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (lol) (lol) So this is applicable to vehicles manufactured after October 2007 as I doubt it will be retrospective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 sshortcircuit - 2013-02-15 11:02 AM pepe63 - 2013-02-15 10:15 AM I like this bit,from the "Motorhomefun" link: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: In October 2007 it became law for the manufactures to ensure that all seats that were intended to be used for travel should have a belt fitted../ cropped /...The manufacturer’s handbook will undoubtedly mention which seats are travel seats and which are not. Seats without belts are no more a travel seat than the seat in your loo! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (lol) (lol) So this is applicable to vehicles manufactured after October 2007 as I doubt it will be retrospective? Regarding the October 2007 date and retrospection, see this "Which Motorhome" July 2010 article (that includes the same 'seating' photo as the one in the MHFun piece): http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/Features/Handy-guides/Buying-Owning-Seatbelts/_ch1_ft496_pg1 Advice on the regulations relating to carrying child passengers is here: http://think.direct.gov.uk/education/early-years-and-primary/parents/7-to-11s/car-seats-boosters-and-seat-belts/ Jim Brown's MHFun article is alarmist in tone (perhaps rightly so) and I'd question the likelihood of motorhome owners being successfully prosecuted (or their insurance invalidated) if their vehicle's passenger-seating has been employed so that it complies with UK law. As I said at the beginning, the logical approach would be for adhple to: 1. Confirm what UK seat-belt regulations apply to his motorhome. 2. Seek advice from his insurance provider. (Comfort Insurance provide advice here.) http://www.comfort-insurance.co.uk/blog/buying-motorhomes/buying-a-motorhome/ If his motorhome is 'legally' OK and his insurance provider is comfortable with how he'll be carrying his passengers, he can then decide whether possible risks involved in his French touring plans are worth taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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