Carthago motor homes

[bolero boy]

I've been having 'fun' speccing up a Hymer Exsis-i (looking at a couple of models) and have gone through the full 'German add-on' thing.

I wanted 'ordinary manual air-con' (which the majority of Ducatos come with these days.

Not available, it's auto air-con (climate control) at £1420 or nothing. This seems like an option that every van should have these days.

Looking through the 'comfort pack' (climate control included) I decided I didnt want 'special springs' nor a 'jumbo 150 ltr fridge' as i was going to have the TEC tower instead (only way to get an oven).

This lead me to thinking that the 'comfort pack' was not required and that I would pick any items from this pack seperately from the options list.

Next item was 'drivers door'!

Right, I felt a door was desirable (also safer as is on opposite side to the habitation door) even at £1285!

Checked the options list.........you can't have a drivers door on the Exsis unless you buy the Comfort Pack............£3688 saving you £778! yeah right.

Now, I wanted the Tec tower at £361 (to get an oven) but had already chosen the 150 ltr fridge upgrade as this came with the 'Comfort Pack' which (still with me?) I had to have in order to get a door!

So, do i get £630 back as i am not having the fridge? No, sorry.

After some considerable while, I finished my deliberations and (even with considerable restraint) realised that the 'extras' (essentials to me) had totalled £6461.

This did not include a few other bits which most of us would like on a van, reversing camera (£584), awning (£1172), spare wheel (£294), alarm (£584), 150hp engine upgrade (£1084) etc, etc.

To add insult to injury there is a £2000 delivery charge....................

Phew!

However, the van drove extremely well, was quiet, comfortable, manouvreable and easy to see out of.

But it is a SHED load of money on top of the base vehicle! ;-)

[lennyhb]

The extra for the TEC tower at £361 is actually good value as you get the TEC tower instead of the Theford fridge/freezer, if you don't have the pack that includes the 150lt fridge freezer the Tec tower is about £1400.

£294 is a lot for a spare wheel but you do get a good quality tyre a jack and a proper mounting bracket, so when you look at the package not too bad, some manufacturers charge £400 for a spare wheel.

 

As for the delivery charge that's what you get for buying in rip of Britain normal Hymer delivery charge is 500€, just had a look at the invoice from my Belgium dealer they did not add a delivery charge.

 

Why pay £584 for a reversing camera I fitted my own for £150, the alarm at £584 although a good factory fitted one it will probably not be recognised by UK insurance companies, I had one fitted for £245.

 

What sort of discount is the dealer offering and does it apply to the extras, UK dealers often do not give discounts on the extras where as German & Belgium dealers do.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Chris, Not the best or most sensible way to purchase a european van, buy from stock (less risk) and it will be fitted with all the popular packs, and cheaper then a UK version. Just look at previous post and the 100's of vans on www.mobile.de ready to driveway now....it's the way the German market works and why it is more attractive. a new order plus extras from list is expensive and plain daft.

 

German dealers have the confidence to buy in advance the market is very different! It should be near same price in euros as pounds here, so an automatic advantage (approx 15% at moment) it was 28% october/november time, plus any discount you negotiate and they can be substantial..

 

222 new hymer exisis for sale right now, from £45k dealer will fit extras including oven...

 

You still pay UK vat so still contributing to UK economy *-)

[bolero boy]

lennyhb - 2013-02-28 6:10 PM

 

The extra for the TEC tower at £361 is actually good value as you get the TEC tower instead of the Theford fridge/freezer, if you don't have the pack that includes the 150lt fridge freezer the Tec tower is about £1400.

£294 is a lot for a spare wheel but you do get a good quality tyre a jack and a proper mounting bracket, so when you look at the package not too bad, some manufacturers charge £400 for a spare wheel.

 

As for the delivery charge that's what you get for buying in rip of Britain normal Hymer delivery charge is 500€, just had a look at the invoice from my Belgium dealer they did not add a delivery charge.

 

Why pay £584 for a reversing camera I fitted my own for £150, the alarm at £584 although a good factory fitted one it will probably not be recognised by UK insurance companies, I had one fitted for £245.

 

What sort of discount is the dealer offering and does it apply to the extras, UK dealers often do not give discounts on the extras where as German & Belgium dealers do.

Lenny, you can have the Tec tower in lieu of the standard fitted fridge/freezer for £361.

In this scenario, the Tec tower is good value albeit an upgrade over the standard item which i would be OK with.

My point was that, having decided that i wanted a door(!) the only way to get one was via the Comfort Pack which incorporated a charge of £630 for the larger fridge/freezer which i wasn't getting.

Yes, i take your point about shopping around for other items but why should this be required?

Again, my point was why should these items be chargable anyway when so many manufacturers include them.

[bolero boy]

JudgeMental - 2013-02-28 7:01 PM

 

Chris, Not the best or most sensible way to purchase a european van, buy from stock (less risk) and it will be fitted with all the popular packs, and cheaper then a UK version. Just look at previous post and the 100's of vans on www.mobile.de ready to driveway now....it's the way the German market works and why it is more attractive. a new order plus extras from list is expensive and plain daft.

 

German dealers have the confidence to buy in advance the market is very different! It should be near same price in euros as pounds here, so an automatic advantage (approx 15% at moment) it was 28% october/november time, plus any discount you negotiate and they can be substantial..

 

222 new hymer exisis for sale right now, from £45k dealer will fit extras including oven...

 

You still pay UK vat so still contributing to UK economy *-)

thanks Eddie, i have looked at this site many times for Hymer, Rapido and even Carthago as in the thread title and the prices are more favourable.

I guess the biggest issue for most people is that the pre-ordered stock is, presumably, LHD.

This will become less of an issue for us as we already spend 4-6 months away from home and more of this time is likely to be spent in European mainland moving forward.

[Guest JudgeMental]

bolero boy - 2013-02-28 7:46 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2013-02-28 7:01 PM

 

Chris, Not the best or most sensible way to purchase a european van, buy from stock (less risk) and it will be fitted with all the popular packs, and cheaper then a UK version. Just look at previous post and the 100's of vans on www.mobile.de ready to driveway now....it's the way the German market works and why it is more attractive. a new order plus extras from list is expensive and plain daft.

 

German dealers have the confidence to buy in advance the market is very different! It should be near same price in euros as pounds here, so an automatic advantage (approx 15% at moment) it was 28% october/november time, plus any discount you negotiate and they can be substantial..

 

222 new hymer exisis for sale right now, from £45k dealer will fit extras including oven...

 

You still pay UK vat so still contributing to UK economy *-)

thanks Eddie, i have looked at this site many times for Hymer, Rapido and even Carthago as in the thread title and the prices are more favourable.

I guess the biggest issue for most people is that the pre-ordered stock is, presumably, LHD.

This will become less of an issue for us as we already spend 4-6 months away from home and more of this time is likely to be spent in European mainland moving forward.

 

we holiday almost exclusively in Europe so why would I want to pay upwards of at least 25% for the dubious pleasure of having the steering wheel on the wrong (RH) side :-D

 

what model van are you interested in...and lets see if we can find a comparison

 

re extras they have to add on the bling to make up for the lack of quality and heavy old fashioned construction..its pure desperation, they cant sell into Europe so its the only option to try and sway buyer but it dont stand up as plenty of better vans around with near enough as good spec. When I looked at autotrail site yesterday after Rays post the list of extras looked as long as anywhere else.

 

If going for a hymer as Lenny says go for the special editions some really nice "premium 50" vans about for £45k'ish

 

[Retread24800]

lennyhb - 2013-02-28 6:12 PMAfraid that VAT saving does not apply to motor vehicles you have to pay the VAT of the country you are importing to. You either buy VAT free or pay the VAT and claim it back and pay the UK VAT.

 

Not quite true, for vehicles that have entered into use more than 6 months ago or have more than 6000 miles on the clock then the VAT/TVA paid in the country of purchase applies.

 

[lennyhb]

We are talking about buying new van which is what I was referring to.

[lennyhb]

bolero boy - 2013-02-28 7:43 PM

 

Yes, i take your point about shopping around for other items but why should this be required?

Again, my point was why should these items be chargable anyway when so many manufacturers include them.

 

Not true the base vehicle has a lot of features that UK manufacturers charge for, all Hymers come with passenger air bag, traction plus, hill holder, ARS, & EPS as standard would probable cost around 2 grand extra on a UK van.

I know I would rather have safety extras as standard rather than a load of bling you may not need.

 

Yet to see an A class van with a drivers door as standard they are always an extra.

[lennyhb]

JudgeMental - 2013-02-28 7:55 PM

 

we holiday almost exclusively in Europe so why would I want to pay upwards of at least 25% for the dubious pleasure of having the steering wheel on the wrong (RH) side :-D

 

And if you really want RHD European Hymer dealers charge 1500€, you will have to wait a bit longer until they run a batch of RHD chassis down the line.

[Rayjsj]

JudgeMental - 2013-02-28 7:55 PM

 

bolero boy - 2013-02-28 7:46 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2013-02-28 7:01 PM

 

Chris, Not the best or most sensible way to purchase a european van, buy from stock (less risk) and it will be fitted with all the popular packs, and cheaper then a UK version. Just look at previous post and the 100's of vans on www.mobile.de ready to driveway now....it's the way the German market works and why it is more attractive. a new order plus extras from list is expensive and plain daft.

 

German dealers have the confidence to buy in advance the market is very different! It should be near same price in euros as pounds here, so an automatic advantage (approx 15% at moment) it was 28% october/november time, plus any discount you negotiate and they can be substantial..

 

222 new hymer exisis for sale right now, from £45k dealer will fit extras including oven...

 

You still pay UK vat so still contributing to UK economy *-)

thanks Eddie, i have looked at this site many times for Hymer, Rapido and even Carthago as in the thread title and the prices are more favourable.

I guess the biggest issue for most people is that the pre-ordered stock is, presumably, LHD.

This will become less of an issue for us as we already spend 4-6 months away from home and more of this time is likely to be spent in European mainland moving forward.

 

we holiday almost exclusively in Europe so why would I want to pay upwards of at least 25% for the dubious pleasure of having the steering wheel on the wrong (RH) side :-D

 

what model van are you interested in...and lets see if we can find a comparison

 

re extras they have to add on the bling to make up for the lack of quality and heavy old fashioned construction..its pure desperation, they cant sell into Europe so its the only option to try and sway buyer but it dont stand up as plenty of better vans around with near enough as good spec. When I looked at autotrail site yesterday after Rays post the list of extras looked as long as anywhere else.

 

If going for a hymer as Lenny says go for the special editions some really nice "premium 50" vans about for £45k'ish

 

The 'Case' for Autotrail ; New 2012 model Bought off of dealers forecourt already fitted with : 150bhp engine,Awning, Spare Wheel, reverse camera,Oven (a reasonable height for 5' 2" wife),exterior Barbeque point and Shower point, Platimum 'Pack' (silver painted cab) media 'Pack' , sat nav/ flip down 15" freeview TV/DVD, status aerial, 85w Solar Panel, 110 amp leisure battery,microwave, 190litre fridge freezer,Alloy wheels, electric step, Cab air-con,Cruise control + R/H drive, Hab door on UK kerbside GOOD insulation walls and roof at 40mm, Floor at 45mm. Large insulated Fresh and waste tanks 136litres/ 85 litres. All for £30,000 AND my 2005 Autocruise Starlet 2. no delivery charge, just had a Fiamma Handle fitted at entrance door, and a Water filter and tap at the sink.

looked at lots of 'European' vans but none took our fancy OR were too expensive. happy camper !

Ray

[Brian Kirby]

bolero boy - 2013-02-28 5:28 PM.................Now, I wanted the Tec tower at £361 (to get an oven) but had already chosen the 150 ltr fridge upgrade as this came with the 'Comfort Pack' which (still with me?) I had to have in order to get a door!.................

Just a little word of warning! We saw an Exsis-i 578 on Tuesday. It had the Tec Tower. It stands above a wheel arch, and is above the jumbo 150L fridge-freezer. Consequently, it is very close to the ceiling. My wife is 5' 2", and there is no way she would be able to see into it, and would certainly be at some risk were she to try to take anything hot from it. I am not especially tall, (about 5' 9"), and I couldn't see into it either. It seems this is likely to be the common problem for all the Exsis models if the Tec tower is fitted. I wasn't bothered, because I want an oven in a motorhome to the same extent I want a hole in my head, but IMO, as installed, it is downright dangerous!

Oh yes, and you will need that front axle springing modification once you start adding up your payload. Hymer cheat on their MIRO calc, allowing only 20 litres of water in a 100 litre tank, and allowing for one only aluminium 11kg gas cylinder. Generally, gas cylinders in UK are steel and weigh (even for an 11kg cylinder) around 13kg empty, against the German aly cylinder at around 6kg. So, if you want to pack two UK 11kg cylinders. you'll need to deduct a further 30kg from your payload. In fact, to make it work, I reckon you're going to need that chassis upgrade to 3.7tonnes as well as the uprated springs. Infuriating, isn't it?

[Charlie boy]

Thanks for all your reply's

Bottom line.....would you buy one ?

>:-(

[Guest JudgeMental]

Charlie boy - 2013-03-01 7:16 AM

 

Thanks for all your reply's

Bottom line.....would you buy one ?

>:-(

 

But! Which model did you like...there are many. No doubt they are quality, but there are other makes.....

[lennyhb]

Brian, I don't see any problem with the payload as the 578 has a 700 kg payload, although the oven is about the same height in our van and you need to be careful my 4'10 wife manages OK.

Front axle loading is not normally a problem on Hymer's the optional front springs were made a available a couple of years ago in response to customer's complaints regarding the nose down stance of the van.

[Derek Uzzell]

Some general comments...

 

LENNYHB

 

“Yet to see an A class van with a drivers door as standard they are always an extra.”

 

Depends what you mean by a “driver’s door”.

 

I’d guess that the majority of current A-class designs have a door on the left (UK nearside) of the cab area as standard because the vehicle has been designed for LHD primarily. Except for the up-market “Highliner” range, all Carthago A-class models have a standard left-hand cab-door.

 

It will be more difficult finding an A-class model with a cab-door on the right (UK offside) that would act as a “driver’s door” when the vehicle is specified in RHD, but they do exist. Laika’s “Rexosline” A-class range has left and right cab-doors as standard.

 

Although it should be obvious, it may be worth saying that the driving environment of most A-class designs will probably be compromised when the vehicle is in RHD.

 

1: The cab-door (if present) will be on the ‘wrong’ side for the UK.

 

2: The cab-window on the right (ie. the ‘passenger’ window when the motorhome is in LHD) will probably be a manually-operated sliding type, whereas the left-side door will usually have an electric window.

 

3: There is more often than not a storage-unit between the right-hand cab-seat and the cab’s inner wall. This is fine when there’s a passenger in that seat, but there’s every chance that, when the right-hand cab-seat becomes the driver’s seat, the handbrake will be installed inaccessibly between the seat and the storage-unit.

 

4: There’s also a good chance that the windscreen-wiper pattern that will have been chosen for LHD will not be altered for RHD. This can leave a large unswept area on the right side of the windscreen exactly where a driver wouldn’t want it. Hymer A-class motorhomes were (are?) famous for this.

 

BRIAN KIRBY

 

“Hymer cheat on their MIRO calc, allowing only 20 litres of water in a 100 litre tank, and allowing for one only aluminium 11kg gas cylinder.”

 

Carthago is much the same. The Carthago brochure quotes a “Mass in driving mode” (MIDM) datum for each model. A footnote states that this “in roadworthy condition” weight is defined in EN 1646-2 and includes allowances for a 75g driver, 100% fuel, 20 (or 50) litres of fresh water, one aluminium gas bottle and electrical connection cables. Another MIDM-related footnote says “With reduction of the fresh water tank to a volume of 20 (or 50) litres for lighter-weight driving”.

 

It’s commonplace now (at least for French-made motorhomes) for converters to specify in their brochures two fresh-water tank capacities. One is the tank’s maximum capacity and the other is a radically reduced amount recommended for when the vehicle is being driven. The usual reason for this is to allow the motorhome to stay below a 3500kg overall weight.

 

CHARLIE BOY

 

“Bottom line.....would you buy one ?”

 

I think you are asking an over-simple question.

 

If you said to me “Here’s £80k – you have to spend it on a motorhome”, I’d opt for a Carthago c-line I 3.7 because I’m reasonably confident that would suit my requirements. And I’d probably want it in LHD because I’m accustomed to this and the vehicle would be operated predominantly outside the UK.

 

However, if I’m to spend my own money it’s another matter and, although I can afford to spend £80k on a motorhome, it’s irrelevant how wonderfully well made and specified a Carthago is as I really can’t justify paying that sort of price given how little we would be likely to use the vehicle.

 

Carthago builds motorhomes probably as well as any manufacturer (and a whole lot better than most). If you think they are over-priced, then you won’t buy one. If you can afford the cost and justify the purchase, why should you not buy one?

 

As JudgeMental says, there are realistic competitors, but you could ask exactly the same sort of question for other makes (eg. “Would you buy a Frankia, a Le Voyageur, an Esterel, a Niesmann+Bischoff, or a Hymer?”) and you’d finish up with exactly the same sort of responses that have been provided in this thread.

[Guest JudgeMental]

lennyhb - 2013-03-01 9:03 AM

 

Brian, I don't see any problem with the payload as the 578 has a 700 kg payload, although the oven is about the same height in our van and you need to be careful my 4'10 wife manages OK.

Front axle loading is not normally a problem on Hymer's the optional front springs were made a available a couple of years ago in response to customer's complaints regarding the nose down stance of the van.

 

I don't get this either as like you say the new lightweight hymers have extremely good payloads even at 3500kg.The exsis at nearly 7 M is an A class that weighs less then my panel van.

 

If I was after a hymer it would be new lightweight Tramp. They now have GRP body, latest wide track alko chassis and same layout as exsis. Have seen a really nice premium 50 model for about 45k

 

If you are spending big money and even if you want RHD not going to one of the European shows to get an idea as to whats available a bit bonkers to be honest.

 

Why we are basing the discussion on A class models when Charlie has not told us wyhat caught his eye is odd...

 

The cathargo A class with packs from about 60k the coachbuilt from 50k (can't do link on iPad )

 

Here is one with loads of spec all the packs for £60 k before haggling

 

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

here is an A class Cathargo with spec, and advertised price of £60,000 (at today's exchange rate) before discount, this was not the cheapest A class, there are 443 new Cathargo for sale...shop about and squeeze a deal. you would have to add 2nd battery and awning and whatever else you fancy....

 

http://tinyurl.com/c65zw5d

 

Gross vehicle weight:3500 kg Number of Beds:4 Emission class:

Euro5

Environmental badge:4 (Green)Length:6820 mmWidth:2.270 mmHeight:2,860 mm

PDC

Fixed bed

Climate control (air conditioning)

Round seating

Power steering

Cruise control

WC

 

EXTERIOR

Rear garage

EXTRAS

Warranty

SAFETY & ENVIRONMENT

ABS

Particle

VEHICLE DESCRIPTION

Base vehicle: Fiat Ducato, engine displacement: 2.3l,

 

Economy Package:

Cab seats adjustable in height

Midi Heki with roof canopy

Mini Heki

Fiberglass skylight over cab

Canopies over furniture with LED spots

Home lighting dimmable

Awning lighting

Refrigerator 150 liters

Waste water tank insulated and heated

Flyscreen blind on cabin door

Living room table 2-way sliding and rotating 360 °

5th Seats with three-point belt

Water Pressure Pump

7-zone cold foam mattress

Board control panel luxury

 

Welcome Package:

Cab air conditioning

Radio DVD with speaker

Dashboard finishing

Preparation solar system

Preparing satellite system

Kitchen extractor

Rearview

Darkening System Cab

Package Chassis

Seats tilt and height adjustment

Driver and passenger airbags

Cruise control

Crank rear steadies

 

Quick Up Package

TV extension with connection kit for flat panel LED

Flat Panel LED 19 fit out system

Package Add On

Rear garage with aluminum checker plate and needle

Abwasserschlauchset

SOG toilet ventilation

Skylight in addition to kitchen

Truma gas flow monitors

Individual Options

 

Tuv, gas testing, COC and freight

Trade and financing possible

Immediately

[Rayjsj]

Charlie boy - 2013-03-01 7:16 AM

 

Thanks for all your reply's

Bottom line.....would you buy one ?

>:-(

 

IF money was no barrier to choice, it would be between : Carthago, Esterel or Le Voyager but on a Mercedes chassis. not likely though, as i don't do the lottery. Ray

[bolero boy]

Hi Eddie (Lenny and all) for interesting perspective on the 'German thing'.

The link above is to a model which was at the NEC last week, looked pretty good, tho I'd need to check the spec, cant part ex and would, of course be LHD.

However, this may be the way we go - sell UK van in UK on Ebay, go for Continental van LHD cash deal with discount.

RE: payload on the EXsis, all models are fine at 3500 even the largest weighs comfortably under 3000 MIRO albeit MIRO with minor changes to ours, thanks Brian.

I did look on suchen.mobil.de and found a few but they weren't that much cheaper than in the UK.

I did get offered 'over £3500' discount for cash so my 'target price' came down to £61600 for a 614 (not normally imported but available) at 6.75m and £64000 for a 678 or other large Exsis at 7.20m.

Having been looking at the 2013 catalog, I would have missed the Premium 50 info as the anniversary was in 2012. However, info is still available and there may be stock about as you say.

The Tramp CL is a lovely MH and the weights, fittings and layouts are very similar to the Exsis-i.

As Derek says, the issue is not necessarily about affording the change it's justifying £60-70k on a motorhome although we do spend lots of time away.

I'm sure once elderly parents have gone (mid-80's, we still still see them as often as we can) we will downsize the house and upsize the van!

Thanks again all, will let you know if the wallet gets the better of me

;-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

There are lots of premium 50 tramps about for advertised price of 55,000€. (new tramps start under 50K)

 

I would expect to get one for nearer 50K € which should be on the road here for approx £45,000 (at current exchange rate) there is a nice one in Belgium less then 2 hrs from Calais. and dealer will deliver to port for you as most do.

 

main advantage over the other Hymers in my book is the GRP construction + they are not as high so better handling I suspect...Like you say, inside they are identical to exsis which look flimsy to me....

[crinklystarfish]

Charlie boy - 2013-03-01 7:16 AM

 

Thanks for all your reply's

Bottom line.....would you buy one ?

>:-(

 

Yes - you could do very much worse.

[Guest pelmetman]

JudgeMental - 2013-03-01 12:00 PM

 

Canopies over furniture with LED spots

 

Is that German for Pelmet? :D..............and no pouffes *-)...........

[lennyhb]

Eddie Tramp premium are not grp they use Hymer's normal PUAL construction they do have a grp floor and a grp roof covering (option on other models).

 

Chris that discount is less than 5% and with the 2k delivery charge it's joke, Germany or Belgium you will get a minimum of 10% more likely 15% discount and either no or a realistic delivery charge.

 

Must admit I like the new Exsis but it would cost me 20k to change and I would be getting a much lower spec van than the current one, the Starlight range look interesting but out of my price range.

[Guest JudgeMental]

crinklystarfish - 2013-03-01 5:56 PM

 

Charlie boy - 2013-03-01 7:16 AM

 

Thanks for all your reply's

Bottom line.....would you buy one ?

>:-(

 

Yes - you could do very much worse.

 

Hey! Welcome back...been anywhere nice?

 

Lenny, I guess the GRP roof better then nothing considering the number of hail damaged Hymers you see advertised for sale.. Gauged a horrible gash on side of an aluminium clad camper years back when I drove to near a Tree branch...it was not pretty. Vowed then never to have an aluminium camper again....GRP really is in a different league.......