Guest peter Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 I know, he does loose the plot sometimes. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-04 7:20 PM Have previously explained why I think a factory order bonkers. The first 2 of 222 on mobile.de have a drivers door. in an accident the whole front will probably pop out anyway:D p Surely a relativity independent review more worthwhile. http://www.reisemobil-international.de/test-und-service/?include=hersteller&hersteller=Hymer You get the axle loads and a lot more factual information by paying 80 cents for a PDF review on a selection of vans. regards the + - 5% if its a modern build the quoted weights a hell of a lot more reliable "This means that a team of six testers - studied interior, functional usefulness and practicality of the motorhome to the test - each an expert in his field. Expert Test team includes a body shop foreman, a master carpenter, a specialist in gas and water systems, a master electrician and a motorhome experienced housewife. The round finished with an editor. All findings and measurements of six professionals are then in issue, clearly presented and easy to understand - on ten pages. And that makes a unique 3D illustration the particular motorhome transparent. Are professional test and 3D sectional drawing it only REISEMOBIL INTERNATIONAL. And now as an archive service for you to download - each month a professional test" you can translate using auto translator.... On buying from a forecourt, that is fine if what you want is on the forecourt. If it isn't, what then? Buy what you don't want because it is what is available, wait in the hope it will appear on a forecourt, or place an order? On the question of independent reviews, I couldn't agree more that one will be likely to learn more than from a manufacturer's brochure. The problem is that may buyers are first time buyers, and motorhomes have become very expensive. I don't think first time buyers will trot off to reisemobil-international.de to get such reports; they will probably just look at a van, like it, be reassured that it is an excellent vehicle, and pay up. Why should they do otherwise? Motorhomes aren't like cars, but cars are the only road vehicle of which most novice buyers will have experience. Once the packs and options are loaded in, most of the Exsis vans will require, IMO, at least the chassis upgrade to 3.7 tonnes to be truly viable as touring vans - especially if trips will last in excess of a summer month. They offer a huge amount of internal storage, but not a correspondingly huge amount of payload at 3.5 tonnes MAM. Hymer recognise this in their advertising, by seeking to show how much payload is left at 3.5 tonnes, but they load only 20 litres if water and one 11kg aluminium gas cylinder to achieve that. That is what I think unreasonable, because it is liable to mislead the uninitiated. So, you part with your £60K+, and later discover that you have been overloading your van. By the time you discover your van is compromised, Hymer has your £60K. Are you then happy? I'm not faulting the van, I think it is very good. It is just that false sense of security created by its promotion that I'm cribbing about. And Hymer are among the better firms when it comes to declaring what the bits and bobs weigh. I think they are being rather short-sighted. Their decision, their funeral. Shame, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-04 8:00 PM.............Yes the Exsis is an A class version of the Tramp CL which is the down market model even the Premium 50 is only a CL with some extras. ........................... Well, yes, and no, Lord Copper! :-D The layouts are basically the same, but the Exsis is 130mm narrower (51/2" inches in old money for the Luddites :-)), and is the same width from windscreen to tail-lights, and that is what appeals to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 as a matter of interest although the Carthago is supposed to be of good build quality it isn't immune to water ingress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-03-05 11:34 PM lennyhb - 2013-03-04 8:00 PM.............Yes the Exsis is an A class version of the Tramp CL which is the down market model even the Premium 50 is only a CL with some extras. ........................... Well, yes, and no, Lord Copper! :-D The layouts are basically the same, but the Exsis is 130mm narrower (51/2" inches in old money for the Luddites :-)), and is the same width from windscreen to tail-lights, and that is what appeals to me. I was referring to trim, furniture and fittings same quality as a CL nowhere as good as the SL, e.g. Roller window blinds instead of cassette blinds etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-05 9:58 PM just pointing out his error Peter :D Carthago motorhomes are made in two factories. The German factory at Aulendorf (to the south-east of Stuttgart) produces the up-market ranges - Liner de Luxe, Highliner, Chic s-plus and Chic e-line. The other factory is at Odranci in the eastern tip of Slovenia. This factory produces the cheaper C-Tourer and Chic c-line ranges. The damaged Carthago motorhome referred to earlier is a C-Tourer model. Being a 'pleb-mobil' it will have been manufactured at Odranci and, if it needed to go back to its factory of origin for repairs, it would be the Slovenian factory to which it would need to be taken. Sad being wrong, innit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 You lean something new every day. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Brian, All the ones that I see have been ordered with all the popular packs, the majority have the driver door. I dont see what the difference is between going away for weeks or months. We more or less pack van the same for a few weeks or months. After the 20 litre water and 1 gas bottle what payload left. I bet it is still respectable. if convinced you need an upgrade so be it, probably a paper exercise anyway. would be interesting to know what spec you consider missing (and your weight calculation). the vans for sale have all the kit that most customers expect, or they wont sell, its the way the germans do it, very different market. Here they don't seem to have either the confidence or money to buy stock, and we are expected to pay more for this.. They will say this is because they offer a tailored bespoke/individual service or some other BS excuse. If people base buying a camper on sales speak..well what can I say!lol. Re the mag reviews, I have always downloaded a selection when shopping for a van, as well as visiting german shows, and don't really care what others fail to do, consequently I get what I pay for and have never been caught out in a will it won't it have enough payload guessing game. or axle overlad situation. Many of the situations we see on here avoidable with a little bit of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Slight disagreement Eddie, we have found we get just as good price from the Belgium dealer if we do a factory order he gives us discount on all the extras only downside is the wait. Might be a long wait for an Exsis last year Hymer had sold the years production by the beginning of April appears to be their best selling van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-06 9:43 AM Slight disagreement Eddie, we have found we get just as good price from the Belgium dealer if we do a factory order he gives us discount on all the extras only downside is the wait. Might be a long wait for an Exsis last year Hymer had sold the years production by the beginning of April appears to be their best selling van. No disagreement Belgium my first choice as well, and yes your dealer competitive. Nearly bought last van from him but he would only take a hymer in PX and at the time they where moving production of vans back to germany. so better deal at the time in Germany with choice of vans in stock and very good PX Yep, if you want factory order for summer you really need to order before Christmas .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-06 10:01 AM ...Belgium my first choice as well, and yes your dealer competitive. Nearly bought last van from him but he would only take a hymer in PX and at the time they where moving production of vans back to germany. so better deal at the time in Germany with choice of vans in stock and very good PX Idle curiosity, but were you able to purchase your present motorhome without paying VAT to the German dealership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-06 2:13 PM JudgeMental - 2013-03-06 10:01 AM ...Belgium my first choice as well, and yes your dealer competitive. Nearly bought last van from him but he would only take a hymer in PX and at the time they where moving production of vans back to germany. so better deal at the time in Germany with choice of vans in stock and very good PX Idle curiosity, but were you able to purchase your present motorhome without paying VAT to the German dealership? Yes and the previous one also. It would not have bothered me if they had withheld, as would have had it back following month. FYI..We have good repair shops here in the UK that are more then capable of ordering parts and repairing different makes of motorhomes. Really no need to drive all the way across Europe 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-06 2:34 PM Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-06 2:13 PM JudgeMental - 2013-03-06 10:01 AM ...Belgium my first choice as well, and yes your dealer competitive. Nearly bought last van from him but he would only take a hymer in PX and at the time they where moving production of vans back to germany. so better deal at the time in Germany with choice of vans in stock and very good PX Idle curiosity, but were you able to purchase your present motorhome without paying VAT to the German dealership? Yes and the previous one also. It would not have bothered me if they had withheld, as would have had it back following month. FYI..We have good repair shops here in the UK that are more then capable of ordering parts and repairing different makes of motorhomes. Really no need to drive all the way across Europe 8-) Thanks. The strong possibility of having to pay German VAT, then pay UK VAT, then reclaim the German VAT from the German motorhome dealer was something Mel Eastburn used to highlight. Certainly, when I bought my Hobby in 2005, there was no question of the German dealer being prepared to sell me the vehicle VAT-EX. While you might not have been bothered paying two helpings of VAT and then reclaiming the German amount subsequently (which is what I had to do), in such cases one would need to allow for (on, say, a £50k motorhome) having an extra £10k available for a while to cover the two overlapping VAT outlays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Water ingress, For most people this is a two fold blight 1 Things get wet 2 Things go rotten. With Carthago, Niesman+Bischoff, Concorde, some Hymer and now of late Bailey only (1 )occurs as the van frame is not wood, its aluminium. Its your money but they are very nice motorhomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 I think you will find it's all Hymer's Clive.. Derek, we brought our van VAT free in Belgium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-06 9:00 AM...............After the 20 litre water and 1 gas bottle what payload left. I bet it is still respectable. if convinced you need an upgrade so be it, probably a paper exercise anyway. would be interesting to know what spec you consider missing (and your weight calculation)..................... The main damage is the comfort pack (which is the only pack on the Exsis), that reduces payload by 78kg. This adds the drivers door, bigger fridge, plus cab aircon, plus some other bits that are marginal for payload. Next up is the auto box at 17kg. Spare wheel 25kg. GRP anti-hail roof 30kg. Awning 28kg (not factory fit). Then, the nice dealer has thrown in the Aguti Ergoflex seats at no cost, but at a further 10kg from payload. At the end of the list, payload is reduced to 396kg. So, adding the upgrade to 3.7T brings it down to 596kg, with a corrected MIRO of 3,104kg, without taking account of the 5% tolerance, but including two Flogas 11kg cylinders plus full water. To that 3,104kg we shall add about 450kg, making the laden weight 3,554kg. So, rather than flirt with the 3,500MAM, I've elected to increase it to 3,700kg, leaving a comfortable margin of 150kg. Seems a reasonable return for €250! Regarding buying without research, I agree, but I think you may be forgetting the amount of learning that underlies your caution. You, and to an extent I, know what to look for, and where to find it. Pity the poor first time buyer, who assumes this great, gleaming, machine will perform just like a car in terms of loading. How may buyers check the payload on a car when buying? It is very difficult to overload a car in normal use, but worryingly easy to do so with a motorhome. I'm simply arguing that the manufacturers do too little to help the uninitiated buyer through the maze, and far too few dealers seem capable of doing so. It is true it is generally possible to correct deficient payload by re-plating, but surely much more satisfactory if this is clear from the outset, and a heavier chassis specified or, if restricted by licence, a van with a lower MIRO chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Clive - 2013-03-06 4:25 PM Water ingress, For most people this is a two fold blight 1 Things get wet 2 Things go rotten. With Carthago, Niesman+Bischoff, Concorde, some Hymer and now of late Bailey only (1 )occurs as the van frame is not wood, its aluminium. Its your money but they are very nice motorhomes.And LeVoyageur. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Brian can I suggest you lug the 450kg out in the garden take a photo and post on here, bet we can save you 25% :D less clothes more washing leave the tux and ballgowns at home no tools - that's what breakdown insurance is for no spare wheel - pucture seal. (when was the last time you has a flat) lightweight pans - leave the heavy french iron work at home and the porcelain.. no silver candle sticks! kindles not books etc....etc.....:-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-07 8:00 PM Brian can I suggest you lug the 450kg out in the garden take a photo and post on here, bet we can save you 25% :...:-D Come Brian take up the challenge we are longing to know what you lug about, probably has a butler sink in the garage to wash the wellies in :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Heaviest things are 80 litres of fresh water, two steel gas cylinders in lieu of one aluminium cylinder, Carole, two bikes, liquids (wine and water), clothes, ramps, EHU, outside table and chairs (folding camping variety :-)). The rest is a large number of relatively light items, food, toiletries, shoes, walking gear, pots and pans (saucepans only 3.5kg!), 240 items in all, all weighed and totalled on a spreadsheet that acts as the packing check-sheet. It would be possible to trim some, but why? It all fits in the present van, which runs 170kg under MAM, with around 450kg spare at the front and 250kg spare at the rear. Raw payload around 720kg (weighbridge). That is comfortable, and well within the van's capabilities. So, if we get a new van, why cut back? The van will be heavier, but for €250 the payload can be increased by 200kg, so no need. It can be quite cold in northern France in spring/autumn, and I like warm legs, so I'm not about to start travelling in shorts only, to save the added weight of trouser legs! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 In our motorhome garage we have got :- two motorbikes, a spare loo cassette, the poles for the Safari room, Efoy, Medium sized socket set, small sized socket set, special socket for changing the engine oil filter, umpteen spanners screw drovers and tools, 12 volt drill, 12 volt grinder (yes! for sharpening drills) two leisure batteries, step ladder, outside table, mains and 12 volt sockets, two fix bins full of very important stuff I cannot remember, second mains hookup lead, 12 volt extension lead, air compressor, nuts and bolts and screws and washers, rotary clothes drier, washing bucket with scrubbing brush and french washing stuff (womens department), clothes pegs, dust pan and brush, bag of assorted wire, box of assorted wire terminals, box of spare bulbs for the vehicle, tie down strap for the awning, long kite pole, chain link extractor, winch for pulling the bikes in, small vice, ratchet straps and cradle to support the bikes. Oh, Spare water carrier 25l , pile of bungees, little trolley (rescued from the dump and mended), Can of engine oil, and all that is just from memory. Just remembered, plastic rain cover for the bikes when out, polish and polishing cloths for the vehicle, Now seriously, can anybody tell me that any of that is not totally necessary?? C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawcara Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Strewth, before anyone else asks, what is the payload and the van etc? One small scooter would suit me, but two bikes, fantastic. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 A large Concorde with a huge load margin (he needs it !). no trying to 'Scrape in' under 3500kg, and why should he ? Provided you are healthy and can pass the medical why not. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 " Provided you are healthy and can pass the medical " Fingers crossed cos that time is getting close. We did downsize the house to buy the van! Oh, Plated at 6.4 tonne and we run fully laden about 6.1. You cannot take it with you and the government will take it if you dont enjoy it first. Route 66 on a Harley this September, Its gotta be done. Enjoy C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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