snowie Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Euroserv and Mirage got me thinking with their contributions to the supposed latest problem with a X250 derivative. I'm not a tugger; but I might be tempted at some point, in some circumstances, BUT....... My examples are open to criticism, I accept, but I would defend the basic premise........ That the sums don't add up (except in favour of the manufacturers) Compare: the following combination with many of the offerings, from PVCs to CBs from £46K - £56K A LUNAR Caravan @ £23K + Fiat chassis @ £10K Total £33K After all; a motorhome is just a caravan with an engine; isn't it? Valueing the lack of necessity to TOW can't be valued this highly; can it? These figures include manufacturer's profit margin ( I think), so where is the justification for the other £13 - 23K regards alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 I think the £10 k is optimistic. I found prices around 15k + VAT for a 130bhp basic spec. Ducato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Makes you wonder how some manufacturers and dealers have managed to go broke when there are such vast profits to be made. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Muswell - 2013-03-05 11:00 PM I think the £10 k is optimistic. I found prices around 15k + VAT for a 130bhp basic spec. Ducato. Thats about right for an L4 panelvan like ours i.e. 18k inc vat to joe public when buying a single van retail, also a L3 chassis van is about 15k inc vat retail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 snowie - 2013-03-05 10:43 PM Euroserv and Mirage got me thinking with their contributions to the supposed latest problem with a X250 derivative. I'm not a tugger; but I might be tempted at some point, in some circumstances, BUT....... My examples are open to criticism, I accept, but I would defend the basic premise........ That the sums don't add up (except in favour of the manufacturers) Compare: the following combination with many of the offerings, from PVCs to CBs from £46K - £56K A LUNAR Caravan @ £23K + Fiat chassis @ £10K Total £33K After all; a motorhome is just a caravan with an engine; isn't it? Valueing the lack of necessity to TOW can't be valued this highly; can it? These figures include manufacturer's profit margin ( I think), so where is the justification for the other £13 - 23K regards alan b We are thinking of going to a caravan, for the following reasons 1, Use of car while van at site. 2 cost of running a car and a motor home (in our case 2 cars) As well as extra road tax, services, MOT, In our case the main reason for changing is convienience of have a car to tour around when on site. We have done all the driving to main areas ( well the ones we want to see) in the van, so a car to look closer would now suit us, so changing the van for a caravan makes economic sense for us now, as we get older and slower. and POORER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 I couldn't find prices quite as low as that but the mind boggles a bit when you look at the prices on the Fiat Professional list, which are in the high twenties for the chassis cab and going up the thirtties for a van like yours. I presume the only purpose of that list is so that dealers can boast about the huge discount they are giving you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Your only buying half a van, the chassis could well be a al-ko item Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 And what if its a PVC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 The Motorhome v Caravan question really comes down to what kind of touring you do most of. Basing yourself on a site & exploring the area round about > caravan. Moving on most days, doing your exploring during the day then finding somewhere to sleep > motorhome. Simples - except that most of us do some of each during a season, so it comes down to which you do most of! The question of whether motorhomes (or any other commodities) are "overpriced" really turns on how much competition there is in the market. The "right price" of anything is what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller accept - in a free and competitive market. So I'm not really as bothered about the cost prices of the two halves, as the fact that so many different marques are in fact owned by very few large groups. That allows at least the possibility of rigging the market rto inflate prices - although I'm not of course (on this forum!) suggesting that actually happens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Hello Folks, I stand corrected. Actual prices paid by the coachbuilders for chassis cabs from Fiat will be between £11000 and £15000 plus VAT depending on weight, engine size and options. This is not speculation; it's fact. Less in Europe of course because they always get a better deal than we do. I don't think this diminishes the validity of my point regarding perceived quality at all. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 I would imagine there's a world of labour cost difference in the manufacture of a caravan and a PVC conversion, and it's probably about scale as well, mind you the bottom line surely is, you don't like the price do as we did and buy second hand. As for going back to a caravan, something we thought about briefly, but Aquarolls, and Wastemaster containers were enough to put us off and dragging them up and down a field, no thanks. ;-) But another factor is the cost of a suitable towing vehicle as well, don't think our petrol 1.6 Focus would be the business. :D All in all is there any price difference ? when you consider you'll still need insurance for a caravan, and possibly a secure area to store it so more cost, unlike a motorhome where most insurers are happy to cover you even if just parked in the road, or in our case a public car park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 As Tracker would say ;-)............they're only expensive if you can't afford it :D...............well if you can afford 5k then you can afford a vehicle to go motor homing B-)..............and in my experience, and judging by the posts on here, an old camper is no less reliable than a 50k van B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Yes but some of us want to be able to think above the din of an old un. :D or cruise down a motorway at more than 40 mph tops :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-06 6:58 PM Yes but some of us want to be able to think above the din of an old un. :D or cruise down a motorway at more than 40 mph tops :D My 1990 Transit camper is much quieter than my 1999 works Transit ;-) .............and Horace will do 60 mph towing the trailer ;-).............until we hit a hill :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 My 2.5 Ducato was more like a traction engine to travel in compared to our 2003 2.8 JTD, and the x250 which I test drove was a major leap forward again, but I think a van beats a caravan & car any day of the week. Sadly we can't afford any more upgrades otherwise it would be a Rapido fixed bed on an X250. like a pal of mine has got, I hate the git privately ;-) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-06 7:03 PM .............and Horace will do 60 mph towing the trailer ;-).............until we hit a hill :D I'have thought it woud go faster downhill 8-) :D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Muswell - 2013-03-06 9:35 AM I couldn't find prices quite as low as that but the mind boggles a bit when you look at the prices on the Fiat Professional list, which are in the high twenties for the chassis cab and going up the thirtties for a van like yours. I presume the only purpose of that list is so that dealers can boast about the huge discount they are giving you. The prices I quoted are from online dealers, they buy in bulk and sell on, this means you might not get a van exactly to the spec you want. Paying list price from a main dealer of any make would only leave you with enough cash to purchase a mattress and chuck it in the back 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t5topcat Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-06 7:14 PM My 2.5 Ducato was more like a traction engine to travel in compared to our 2003 2.8 JTD, and the x250 which I test drove was a major leap forward again, but I think a van beats a caravan & car any day of the week. Sadly we can't afford any more upgrades otherwise it would be a Rapido fixed bed on an X250. like a pal of mine has got, I hate the git privately ;-) :D Don't hate me. I've just bought one. And I love it !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share Posted March 6, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-06 6:44 PM I would imagine there's a world of labour cost difference in the manufacture of a caravan and a PVC conversion, and it's probably about scale as well, I would think a CB and a caravan are pretty much the same in labour terms, and PVCs are a more niche product anyway, but the "premium" added "because it's a motorhome" is made up of all sorts of "perceived value" items, things that have no real value, but when added together, by a good salesman encourage you to open your wallet that bit wider than you ever intended. At a certain age there is an inclination to "splash out", particularly if it will get you to places that would otherwise stay unvisited (and may be on your "bucket-list") alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Tony Jones - 2013-03-06 5:55 PM The Motorhome v Caravan question really comes down to what kind of touring you do most of. Basing yourself on a site & exploring the area round about > caravan. Moving on most days, doing your exploring during the day then finding somewhere to sleep > motorhome. Simples - except that most of us do some of each during a season, so it comes down to which you do most of! The question of whether motorhomes (or any other commodities) are "overpriced" really turns on how much competition there is in the market. The "right price" of anything is what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller accept - in a free and competitive market. So I'm not really as bothered about the cost prices of the two halves, as the fact that so many different marques are in fact owned by very few large groups. That allows at least the possibility of rigging the market rto inflate prices - although I'm not of course (on this forum!) suggesting that actually happens! Tony has summarised the main reason for picking one or the other, it your type of camping. One should also be prepared to accept that this may change with age and lifestyle. We have done caravan then motorhomes and now back with caravan for the above reasons. As age creeps??? up on one we find the thought of moving hither and thither less attractive and prefer nowadays to spend time in 1 spot. This means using a caravan where you can set up quite a home form home with all outside gizmos that your heart and wallet desire, and yes, we have been as guilty as others in buying lots of things we thought looked good on the patio etc. My wife also now prefers the longer lounging area you usually get with caravans and it is her personal choice that cab seats are not desirable as loungers, so whatever she says, goes. I also fully agree that having the car as a 'bus' is a big advantage and yes, I know many use panel vans as daily transport, but there are situations where it is less convenient, and you have to pack everything just to go to the shops. Insurance is not an issue as caravans are usually cheaper than motorhomes and of course you avoid road tax, but do have to pay it for the tug. So swings and roundabouts. As for costs well campervans are always more expensive per foot of length as they are harder to fit out than a boxy coachbuilt or caravan. And as with many things the options list is a minefield. One thing that did sway us among others was the fact that the choice of automatic tugs is far higher than automatic motorhomes and this is essential to us. However, to each their own but always be prepared to look at the other side as time goes by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 snowie - 2013-03-06 7:55 PM I would think a CB and a caravan are pretty much the same in labour terms, and PVCs are a more niche product anyway, Labour charges will be more for a PVC because space inside is restricted to one or two people working inside it at a time. Coachbuilts / caravans are built on a chassis and the walls added last so are quicker to build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 If you think motorhomes are overpriced look at the 'luxury' car market. I wonder why anyone would pay £100k for a car when you see what you can get in a motorhome for that money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Another Bargain camper ;-) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knaus-Traveller-580-on-VW-Chassis-2-5-LPG-2-Berth-Motorhome-MANY-MANY-EXTRAS-/321085143097?pt=UK_Campers_Caravans_Motorhome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-06 8:30 PM Another Bargain camper ;-) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knaus-Traveller-580-on-VW-Chassis-2-5-LPG-2-Berth-Motorhome-MANY-MANY-EXTRAS-/321085143097?pt=UK_Campers_Caravans_Motorhome Are you getting a 'kickback' on these??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugga Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 The reasons that we bought a motorhome after our caravan was: 1) Caravan settee was not very comfortable - hubby prefers the captain seats in the motorhome. 2) Caravan was cold and drafty in winter - motorhome is winterised 3) No onboard water tanks in a caravan and it always runs dry when its raining/snowing. 4) In winter clean water and waste will freeze up in a caravan because they are outside in the weather. 5) Once pitched Hubby refused to move site for a fortnight. 6) Jockey wheel would fall down regularly so we got through quite a few tyres and innertubes. We prefer the motorhome and if we want to we tug our Smart Car on a trailer. Its easier to tow a small trailer behind a large vehichle than it is to tow a large caravan behind a car. Then there is the weight ratio of 80% of cars kerb weight. Caravans are getting heavier and heavier so tow cars need to be heavier too, but for maximum economy modern cars are getting lighter and lighter too. It can be a dilema :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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